Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Odds are there is a sponsoring organization that has a mentor in place to be sure the basics are done and a robot gets built and shipped. That might be a teacher (school run team) or an employee (sponsor run team).

For chaperoning, if it is a school run team then the school board / administration approved the travel and there was probably a lead person identified. That person has accountability for overall chaperoning and safety of the students. That person is probably also legally responsible for those students and their safety.

I believe in most areas you have mentioned it should be a combination of the mentor and student. Hoping to avoiding starting another mentor / student led team debate, it often takes an experienced person to help identify what needs done and help layout a plan. If things go well, there is a quick transition of workload and the students do most of the work.

There are also some rules of engagement that need to be followed and so general guideance may be required from a more experienced person.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

My thinking regarding sponsors, parents, and guests that visit the team they are affiliated with is that this is an opportunity for the team to continue to help them deepen their understanding of FIRST as they see all the teams in action in the pits and on the field.

There are certainly other competitions out there where the emphasis is student-centric with the adult mentors stepping back while at the competitions. That isn't FRC. If the guests have questions, concerns and/or frustrations, the members of the team should be prepared and ready with a clear explanation of what FIRST is about and what the goals and mission of FIRST are. The practiced elevator speeches come in handy as introductions, refreshers, and reminders as the venue comes to life for your guests. It's one thing to be told about FIRST and the competition, it is quite another to experience it FIRST hand. The team members who are ready to help enlarge the scope and deepen the understanding of the FIRST experience for their sponsors and guests are the ones who can help lessen the confusion or misperceptions.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

First of all, I should apologize for some of the lack of clarity in my last post. I'm typing with one hand (frisbee injury) and trying to use as few words as possible but I seem to have crossed the line between concise but clear and tersely obfuscated.
Our sponsor does not mean to leave students alone, totally unsupervised, in the pits, although that probably wouldn't go as badly as some people are suggesting. He meant that he wanted to see students working on robots rather than mentors, especially during competitions and that he thought there should be a rule passed to that effect.
But perhaps it should be is my point and our sponsor's.
This actually sparked a discussion with among our team/sponsor about our feelings regarding this aspect of FIRST. We all decided that we disagree with FIRST, or more specifically, CD's most common interpretation of FIRST's goals on this subject. We think students are inspired more by doing than by watching. If this weren't the case, we could just replace FIRST with the Discovery channel.
And since subtlety never seems to go over around these parts, let me make it clear that I do, in fact, think FIRST is more valuable than tv, but that I feel that way because my team was largely (basically entirely) student driven so I didn't spend my time "watching real engineers build a robot."

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Jane, I understand what you are saying but need to specify FRC, not FIRST.
In FLL, for example, the adult mentors do step back at the competition and having the students do the work is right up front in the FLL creed.

Each of the 4 programs in FIRST have different rules about mentor/student involvement.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Thank you for correcting me, Jenny.
You are absolutely right, I was careless.

I was at an FLL event this weekend and watched these amazing children and their machines. One had built (with the help of a mentor, I'm sure) a LEGO sleeve that he slipped his arm into. The end effector was a grabber and would have been perfect for picking up a miniature Trackball.

Thanks again,
Jane

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I see what you are saying but some teams do it very differently from others. Some teams have mentors do most of the work so the mentors have to be there to fix the robot. Other teams only have students in the pits.
My team rarely has more than one mentor in the pit at one time, sometimes none at all. We made buttons for people in the pit and we only made 6 so if you didn't have a button you couldn't come in the pit. The 6 people were the 4 students on drive team and two students who were best at quick repairs.

On another note: I think mentors should do hardly any work, they should show the students how to do it and let the students do it themselves. Students can't learn if they are not doing it themselves or at least doing it with a mentor.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I think that Rich hits the nail on the head right there. (I'm actually surprised he hasn't weighed in yet.)

[somewhat off-topic]Kelly, Sgreco, I both agree and disagree. For one thing, what is "CD's most common interpretation of FIRST's goals" as you see it, and what precludes doing in its definition? As I see it, based on numerous discussions on similar topics, INSPIRATION is the goal, and the CD consensus seems to be that how the inspiration happens is up to the individual team. If the mentors are the inspiration, then why limit the inspiration? Or, if beating the heavily-mentored teams is inspiration, why limit that? Also, as a word to the wise, mentor/student built/designed robots has been discussed many times before, with the typical result of an "agree to disagree" or a flame war and locked thread.

I think that limited mentors in the pits is a good idea, but the ratio should be up to the teams. Also, some teams have the mentors step back already. I'll do work on the robot if I'm demonstrating something or helping the students ("here's how to take a FP gearbox apart so we can use the grease"), or if a repair needs to be made and isn't being made and there isn't a student available. I can think of two or three times I worked on the robot at our regional, all of which resulted from something needing doing. I made sure to involve the students, too. ("Hey, can you put the number on the other 3 bumpers?")

Banning mentors from the pits outright is something that FIRST will never do, and if they did, I'd be one of the first to complain. The kids do need the mentors on occasion--and I've had at least one occasion to call a mentor to a team that needed help. Limited, yes, none, no.

Sgreco is right, teams do it very differently. That's why there isn't a rule limiting mentor involvement in the pits. However, here is where I disagree: "Students can't learn if they are not doing it ..." I'd disagree with this, as it is possible to learn though watching and observing. If you can't learn if you aren't doing, then WHY is the preferred method of teaching lectures? Students aren't doing anything there, but does that mean they aren't learning? No. I would actually say that it's closer to say "Students don't remember as well if they don't do it." (Also note: with his team's rule and his reasoning, then only 6 students are learning during competition. No one else is allowed to. That is a bit of an exaggeration, but with his words, it would be true. Fortunately, it isn't actually true--you can learn by watching in the stands, just not as much. I'm not criticizing the rule, at that is within the team and therefore not my concern.)

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

It seems to me you can't really separate those two questions. The question of how a mentor should be involved will necessarily be tied up in their role in design and construction. After all, that is the central activity on any team: building the robot.

My experience as a team member and as a loosely-involved college student mentor has shown me that having the students be as involved as possible in every aspect of running the team is the ideal. The functions of a mentor should be limited to (in order of importance):

1) making sure the students don't hurt themselves with all those fun toys power tools they're working with.

2) corralling the students so that they can use their time effectively. This necessarily must include helping the STUDENT leaders of the group to a) gain moral authority and b) exercise their own leadership skills.

3) offering advice and expertise where needed with the caveat that it is THEIR ROBOT and they are free to ignore you as much as they want on this score.

Of these three, only number (1) is absolutely necessary. Safety is the only issue on which a mentor ever should put his/her foot down and force a student to do/not do something. The other two roles could theoretically be done without. Practically speaking, it is beneficial to have an adult around who can answer questions and provide leadership, but both of those roles should be as limited as possible. The ideal mentor's role is defined by what the kids need them to do, not by what the mentor wants or can do better than them. The mentor works for the team, not the other way around.

Kelly mentioned banning mentors from the pits. I, personally, would like to see this, though I understand that it's not going to happen any time soon. However, I think a good step in the right direction would be to make the "coach" position on the drive team limited to students only. Even if you have the best, least overbearing, most supportive mentor in the world, even if your mentor could do the "coach" job better than anyone else, that is a position that should be taken by a student. Fostering student leadership is a very important part of mentoring a FIRST team, and requiring the "coach" to be a student would be a step towards encouraging that.

To touch on the no-mentors-in-the-pits thing again: the fact that this was suggested by one of our sponsors (and not a student or even a mentor) is, I think, very telling. He is exactly the sort of person FIRST needs in order to expand: owners of midsize engineering firms with resources available for teams. He wasn't exactly scrutinizing other teams pits, but it was still clear to him that there were a number of teams with over-involved mentors, and it looked pretty bad to him. Obviously, one person is not a representative sample, but his attitude is surely not isolated. I believe that if FIRST wants to become truly mainstream, they are going to have to change their attitude on that issue.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The more I think about the "no mentors in the pits", the more I don't really like it.

Let me explain: There are competitions out there without mentors. I name no names. There is a FIRST competition where the students are supposed to do most/all of the work. That is FLL. The mentor involvement is what sets FRC apart.

Take the mentor involvement out of the pits for a moment. They're at your facility, ready to answer questions, help you, hold a part. Now, you get to the event and they can't enter the pit. You suddenly have something go wrong that you don't know how to fix. You have to tell the mentor who is in the stands or at work what the issue is, with no way to send pictures (the engineer's language) and only your words. The fix might not work, or might not even be possible. And, according to Murphy, something WILL go wrong, and most likely the precise event that would cause this situation.

It's like pulling a cane out from under a guy who only needs it occasionally. You pull it when he doesn't need it, and when he does need it, he goes down hard.

If you want pure student-built, limited mentor, go with FTC or a different competition. Or set your own rules about how many mentors may be in the pit. FIRST is about changing the culture, not conforming to it. But each team is free to choose how they do so. If a team wants to go more student-led, then great. If they want to go more mentor-led, great.

Also, the student/mentor coaching was brought up in another thread. I would suggest reading that. And, over-involved mentors has been brought up before (see thread "When do mentors go too far?" from some time ago).

I understand the sponsor's questioning, but I also have to ask: Is he seeing the goal of FIRST correctly? Are we all seeing that goal correctly? If he sees it as a "student-run robotics competition", then I think he sees incorrectly. Dave Lavery said something during Kickoff about teams without mentors missing out. (I don't remember exactly, but it's been posted on CD. I'm just too lazy to search right now.)

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Sorry, Eric, but this is an entirely erroneous characterization of FTC. There is no difference between FRC and FTC in the role of mentors. Only in FLL (and JFLL? -- I actually don't know) do coaches agree not to touch the robots.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I'm going to have to agree with Rick. @ Eric-Its also a big assumption if you don't personally know ALL the teams in FIRST. (including FTC and FLL)

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

EricH,
This may not be the one you were thinking of but it addresses some of this discussion.
Jane

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

lol

Dave: The Answer to All of Life's Problems. :p

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I've searched for this quote before and had a hard time finding it. I tried to remember a word in the quote to search for but somehow forgot. Hopefully, I'll be able to remember next time.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Ideally, the students would have been so heavily involved with building the robot, they know how to fix it better than the mentors. During the years I was on 1418, by competition time, there was nothing the mentors knew about our robots that at least one team member didn't know better. Build season is another story, that's when general engineering experience comes in handy, but at competitions it's all about knowing your machine.

I don't see how heavier involvement from mentors helps FIRST change the culture any more. If anything, I think it does the opposite. Kids learn in school how to sit and watch and be detached from science while they follow advice (orders) from their elders. We already know that professional engineers can build robots. What's really culture changing is when kids can do it for themselves. (and they can, when the mentors step back)

EricH also alluded to other hands-off for adults competitions, and I thought of Odyssey of the Mind. The best part of OM is seeing the crazy and inventive stuff students come up with when no one tells them the 'right' thing to do. My mom was a judge for several years and she said it was pretty easy to tell which projects the parents had done and that the kids' projects were generally better.

The feeling of ownership I got from my FIRST and OM teams has no comparison and surely has made me a much better person than yielding control to the mentors would have.
God, I miss touch typing. I apologize in advance for any grammatical oddities, I'm not used to thinking so much faster than I can get words down.