Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The issue of mentor involvement in robot design and construction has been beat to death, so that's not what I'm asking here.

Instead, I want to know what CDers think about the duties of a mentor. What are their responsibilities when it comes to running the team? Chaperoning the team? Teaching the students? Who should spearhead fund raising efforts? Corporate relations? Public relations?

A recent event (that I think better left undisclosed) has made me wonder what everyone thinks of a mentor's responsibility. Where does the balance lie between a mentor's duty and a student's? Where does the responsibility (edited from "blame") fall when things are left undone?

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The job of the Coach/Lead mentor is the same as any other CEO -- make sure all the important things get done. The lead mentor is the plate-spinner-in-chief, the person who makes sure that someone is getting the job done. It takes time to build a team of adult volunteers and to integrate students into a program. The lead mentor identifies the absolute minimum things that HAVE TO get done, and makes sure they do get done, and encourages others to pursue their passions in doing the necessary and the nice-to-have. If no one wants to do the nice-to-have responsibilities, they simply don't have to get done. On any youth robotics team, the things that MUST get done include building a working robot, getting the paperwork done, raising the money, finding a place to meet, directing the scheduling process, and making sure there is enough mature guidance to help the students do their best. EVERYTHING else is optional, and depends on the quantity and quality of mentors and students.

I could go on about this for a few dozen pages. Was there something that you were specifically interested in?

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The mentor should make sure that he can communicate with all the members on the team. He/she also needs to know the proper way to delegate different duties to members.

The mentor is responsible for the safety of all the members traveling to the event. There have been times when me and another mentor stayed up with the kids. Let the kids have fun whether it is to stay up till 3 in the morning and play guiter hero or just stay up to hang out. When you can compromise with the kids, they are in much better mood at the event.

By the time build season rolls around, it is very hard to teach 50+ students the basics of mechanical, electrical and software. I believe that mentors should take the time to teach the kids before build season starts. Of course the mentor may have a full time job, college, family to take care of. That's when the students come in where they help each other to learn different aspects. For example, for upcoming season, me and two other mentors have decided to design few things and then get together with the kids, teach them how to use cad, produce some off season products, have them work it and test it out; so by the time build season rolls around, we should be able to just stand over their shoulder and watch them do all the work. Of course we step in when they need help. Isn't that the whole point of FIRST... to inspire students?

I believe that you need two members who is very well with communication and writing. There are many white papers on CD where there are very good examples and ways to fund raise. Teams should use these resources.

Corporate relations and public relations should be handles by the whole team. The only way any corporate is going to be by your side is when you are working together as a team. Same goes for public relations; the only way to attract public into FIRST is to go out there as a team and do something that catches their eye. It's the teams' job.

Why point any fingers. Yes I know, it happens a lot. But why not work together as a team to come up with a solution to fix it? Honestly, I don't know how to answer this one.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Having a team that when from a fully mentor run team to a fully student run team, I beleive there is a middle ground. I think it is fine to let the students make many decisions but just like my job their are managers that need to approve. In this case it should be the mentors. They intern are held responsible by the school, the parents, and the sponsors.

I think this depends on the mentors. Honestly, Chaperoning is a complex issue since it can end up having insurance and legal ramifications. Some sponsors are willing to provide mentors, but do not want them to be responsible. That being said, I think every mentor has a responsibility to make sure the students are generally safe.

No where! In almost every situation I have been in, the "blame" can easily be spread around and serves no purpose. Besides, if important things are left undone, then the entire teams fails. My philosophy has always been: "It's happened. Who cares who is to blame. How do we fix this so it doesn't happen again?"

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The lead mentor is responsible for it all. The trick is to delegate as much as possible and have effective communications with everyone.

The corporate analogy is appropriate. Treat the team as a company, not as a kingdom. You "hire" the best person for a particular job. All the employees are responsible for the success of the company. "Blame" is not GP, "Shared Responsibility" is what we teach.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

George is correct; problems, mistakes, omissions rarely benefit by identifying an individual rather than identifying the process that allowed it to happen. Rather than assign blame, it should be used as a learning experience to eliminate it for the future.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Mentor/student responsibility splits are team specific and even within a team may vary year-to-year as experienced mentors/students move on and the inexperienced fill their shoes.
If you just want specifics for our team here are our lead mentor duties Advisor Handbook or for the run-of-the-mill mentor: Mentor Handbook, our corresponding student officer duties Officer Handbook or generic student responsibilities: Student Handbook. Fundraising, travel, etc. have been taken over by our parent Booster Club: Parent Handbook, but responsibilities beyond requiring accounts and contracts to be through legal adults are shared with students.
Generally, duties are split based on interest with the thankless jobs ending up most often in the hands of whoever blinks first. Core duties are the ultimate responsibility of the lead mentor with delegation to students, mentors, and parents.

Other than that I'm going to take a different tack here just in case...
-------------------
Has your teacher declined to assume some responsibilites that you all automatically expected them to assume?

We all must form a true appreciation for what teacher's volunteer for (and sacrifice) as opposed to what they are required to do by appointment by a school board of education, or through the goodwill of their hearts. People will do more for you if you don't take them for granted.

From a purely official standpoint only the advisors/mentors appointed to run the team by the school or chartering organization have specific official responsibilities. Those responsibilities address the administration's concerns and are typically legal of course. Lawsuits and the Board of Education calls only the Lead advisor/mentor to task, not the students. Official responsibilities usually include: hold meetings covering a specified number of hours, insure student safety, and process paperwork.

--------------------
Everything else is at the courtesy of the teacher, so you should be especially nice to them since they are usually volunteering their personal time and money from there on out. They usually accept and take on additional responsibilities, but those additional duties are on a purely volunteer basis. Usually safety training is assumed, however, with a club a teacher's official responsibilities may only include a requirement to be present at meetings and the basic safety/welfare of the club students.

Chaperoning the team, teaching the students, spearheading fund raising efforts, corporate relations, public relations are strictly speaking all additional volunteer efforts that can be spread over many other helping hands. Typically, teachers do take on much of these duties through a personal sense of responsibility and a wish to see the team succeed, however, teams must understand and be properly appreciative that it is indeed a personal volunteer effort and is not required. Some teachers just may not be able to do all these things due to overloaded commitments, while another teacher may go way above and beyond their responsibilities by advancing or outright giving the team money to make critical purchases.

Chaperoning trips is often handled as a separate issue by the school administration, because teachers have to get substitutes to cover for them in classes that are missed. If a critical AP test is coming up, then someone else may have to be found to chaparone. There is also usually a chaperone/student ratio, e.g., 10/1, that requires the recruitment of additional teachers, so teacher contracts or districts have set fees they pay to recruit the necessary chaperones. Supervision and chaperoning of the predominately underage students is a legal responsibility, and is a firing offense if not done with due diligence.

I know some administrations struggle to get teacher's, who have to volunteer to begin with, to dedicate the enormous amount of time that a FIRST team requires. A teacher may only reluctantly sign up to do the minimum necessary, and they may only end up a temporary place-holder while the team looks for a fresh, young, idealistic replacement. It's much easier to lead the school fly fishing club, and the time and expense commitment is much more reasonable for a person who probably has their own life.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

this is our "core values" statement , and coaches goals....
(taken in part from FLL)
As it has been stated in other posts here- it is dependant upon how your team was established?? what are the long term goals for the team... We have attempted to establish a team that will be here for the long haul (win or loose). It is a Student run team (if they drop the ball we are there to assist, pick it up and get them on track again.)

sometimes it works better than others....at the forfront is that fact we have the responsiblity to forster a morally and ethicaly sound program.


Core Values

We are a TEAM.

We do the work to find solutions with guidance from our coaches and mentors.

We honor the spirit of friendly competition.

What we discover is more important than what we win.

We share our experiences with others.

We display gracious professionalism in everything we do.

We have fun.




My Promise as a Mentor/Coach/Volunteer:

The students come first. FOR15/TPP is about the students having fun and getting excited about science and technology. Everything my team does starts and ends with that principle.

The students do the work. This is their opportunity to learn and grow. The students on my team do all of the programming, research, problem solving, and building. Adults can help them find the answers, but cannot give them answers or make decisions.

FOR15/TPP communicates with the team via my primary email address, I am responsible for reading and following all aspects of FOR15/TPP guidelines and rules.

I will encourage my team members, other coaches, volunteers, parents and team supporters to develop and practice a set of FOR15 values that reflects FIRST’s goal to change culture in a positive way by inspiring others through our team’s actions and words.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

There are teams that have a Mentor MOU (memorandum of understanding). Also ones for students and parents. (Mark has some great links for his team). I am trying to collect samples for NEMO.
This is all about communication and making sure all parties understand the expectations ahead of time.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Mark,
I am very impressed. That is some detailed hard work that went into clearly defining your team organization and responsibilities. Its no wonder you folks are very successful every year.
You've given us some beefed up homework assignments to work on over the summer.
See you in NJ again next year?

Glenn

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

First, I'd like to thank everyone here for responding. I'd also like to reiterate that the actual event that prompted this is not important, it only got me wondering.

Personally, I feel that the adults on a team have a few responsibilities.

They are responsible for the knowledge they have. If they know something that can help a (considerably less knowledgeable) student make a better robot, then they have a responsibility to teach the student. That's just the definition of a mentor.

If a mentor is the the school's official contact/head mentor/etc, he/she is responsible for dealing with the school. If there is a problem concerning the team, that mentor is responsible for being the school's point of contact, advocating for his/her students, and taking responsibility of enforcement of school policies.

The buck stops at the adults. If something isn't getting done, the adults need to step in, find out why, and determine a solution without putting anyone down or excluding anyone. In the end, any failure of the team falls on everyone who didn't help, not the one person or group of people who tried and failed.

The adults are responsible for stepping back. Let the students learn, but guide them. Don't leave them hanging, but don't hand them a robot either. Let them be part of the process, but give them the guidance they need not only to succeed at building a robot, but to learn and gain from the experience.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

This reminded me of one of Dave's gems regarding the topic, blame.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

After visiting our regional, one of our sponsors proposed banning mentors from the pits. He was annoyed by the number of teams he saw where a team of adults were crowded around a robot while the students stood back and watched. It would be a tad impractical to ban mentors from working at all during the build season, but student-only pits would ensure that the team knew enough about the inner workings of the robot to make any repairs. Also, working on the robot in the pits is one of the most exciting things about FIRST, and it's an opportunity I hope as many students as possible can have.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

That would be a huge safety issue. The mentors are there to watch over as much as teach. Parents and school boards would never let that happen anymore than they would send you off to the competition with no adult supervision at all.

I understand the reasoning...but he didnt think it it all the way through

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I would certainly support limiting the pits to one or two mentors per team. That would ensure a certain mentor/student ratio just because one-two people are rarely enough to do everything that needs to be done...
</off-topic>

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Odds are there is a sponsoring organization that has a mentor in place to be sure the basics are done and a robot gets built and shipped. That might be a teacher (school run team) or an employee (sponsor run team).

For chaperoning, if it is a school run team then the school board / administration approved the travel and there was probably a lead person identified. That person has accountability for overall chaperoning and safety of the students. That person is probably also legally responsible for those students and their safety.

I believe in most areas you have mentioned it should be a combination of the mentor and student. Hoping to avoiding starting another mentor / student led team debate, it often takes an experienced person to help identify what needs done and help layout a plan. If things go well, there is a quick transition of workload and the students do most of the work.

There are also some rules of engagement that need to be followed and so general guideance may be required from a more experienced person.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

My thinking regarding sponsors, parents, and guests that visit the team they are affiliated with is that this is an opportunity for the team to continue to help them deepen their understanding of FIRST as they see all the teams in action in the pits and on the field.

There are certainly other competitions out there where the emphasis is student-centric with the adult mentors stepping back while at the competitions. That isn't FRC. If the guests have questions, concerns and/or frustrations, the members of the team should be prepared and ready with a clear explanation of what FIRST is about and what the goals and mission of FIRST are. The practiced elevator speeches come in handy as introductions, refreshers, and reminders as the venue comes to life for your guests. It's one thing to be told about FIRST and the competition, it is quite another to experience it FIRST hand. The team members who are ready to help enlarge the scope and deepen the understanding of the FIRST experience for their sponsors and guests are the ones who can help lessen the confusion or misperceptions.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

First of all, I should apologize for some of the lack of clarity in my last post. I'm typing with one hand (frisbee injury) and trying to use as few words as possible but I seem to have crossed the line between concise but clear and tersely obfuscated.
Our sponsor does not mean to leave students alone, totally unsupervised, in the pits, although that probably wouldn't go as badly as some people are suggesting. He meant that he wanted to see students working on robots rather than mentors, especially during competitions and that he thought there should be a rule passed to that effect.
But perhaps it should be is my point and our sponsor's.
This actually sparked a discussion with among our team/sponsor about our feelings regarding this aspect of FIRST. We all decided that we disagree with FIRST, or more specifically, CD's most common interpretation of FIRST's goals on this subject. We think students are inspired more by doing than by watching. If this weren't the case, we could just replace FIRST with the Discovery channel.
And since subtlety never seems to go over around these parts, let me make it clear that I do, in fact, think FIRST is more valuable than tv, but that I feel that way because my team was largely (basically entirely) student driven so I didn't spend my time "watching real engineers build a robot."

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Jane, I understand what you are saying but need to specify FRC, not FIRST.
In FLL, for example, the adult mentors do step back at the competition and having the students do the work is right up front in the FLL creed.

Each of the 4 programs in FIRST have different rules about mentor/student involvement.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Thank you for correcting me, Jenny.
You are absolutely right, I was careless.

I was at an FLL event this weekend and watched these amazing children and their machines. One had built (with the help of a mentor, I'm sure) a LEGO sleeve that he slipped his arm into. The end effector was a grabber and would have been perfect for picking up a miniature Trackball.

Thanks again,
Jane

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I see what you are saying but some teams do it very differently from others. Some teams have mentors do most of the work so the mentors have to be there to fix the robot. Other teams only have students in the pits.
My team rarely has more than one mentor in the pit at one time, sometimes none at all. We made buttons for people in the pit and we only made 6 so if you didn't have a button you couldn't come in the pit. The 6 people were the 4 students on drive team and two students who were best at quick repairs.

On another note: I think mentors should do hardly any work, they should show the students how to do it and let the students do it themselves. Students can't learn if they are not doing it themselves or at least doing it with a mentor.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I think that Rich hits the nail on the head right there. (I'm actually surprised he hasn't weighed in yet.)

[somewhat off-topic]Kelly, Sgreco, I both agree and disagree. For one thing, what is "CD's most common interpretation of FIRST's goals" as you see it, and what precludes doing in its definition? As I see it, based on numerous discussions on similar topics, INSPIRATION is the goal, and the CD consensus seems to be that how the inspiration happens is up to the individual team. If the mentors are the inspiration, then why limit the inspiration? Or, if beating the heavily-mentored teams is inspiration, why limit that? Also, as a word to the wise, mentor/student built/designed robots has been discussed many times before, with the typical result of an "agree to disagree" or a flame war and locked thread.

I think that limited mentors in the pits is a good idea, but the ratio should be up to the teams. Also, some teams have the mentors step back already. I'll do work on the robot if I'm demonstrating something or helping the students ("here's how to take a FP gearbox apart so we can use the grease"), or if a repair needs to be made and isn't being made and there isn't a student available. I can think of two or three times I worked on the robot at our regional, all of which resulted from something needing doing. I made sure to involve the students, too. ("Hey, can you put the number on the other 3 bumpers?")

Banning mentors from the pits outright is something that FIRST will never do, and if they did, I'd be one of the first to complain. The kids do need the mentors on occasion--and I've had at least one occasion to call a mentor to a team that needed help. Limited, yes, none, no.

Sgreco is right, teams do it very differently. That's why there isn't a rule limiting mentor involvement in the pits. However, here is where I disagree: "Students can't learn if they are not doing it ..." I'd disagree with this, as it is possible to learn though watching and observing. If you can't learn if you aren't doing, then WHY is the preferred method of teaching lectures? Students aren't doing anything there, but does that mean they aren't learning? No. I would actually say that it's closer to say "Students don't remember as well if they don't do it." (Also note: with his team's rule and his reasoning, then only 6 students are learning during competition. No one else is allowed to. That is a bit of an exaggeration, but with his words, it would be true. Fortunately, it isn't actually true--you can learn by watching in the stands, just not as much. I'm not criticizing the rule, at that is within the team and therefore not my concern.)

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

It seems to me you can't really separate those two questions. The question of how a mentor should be involved will necessarily be tied up in their role in design and construction. After all, that is the central activity on any team: building the robot.

My experience as a team member and as a loosely-involved college student mentor has shown me that having the students be as involved as possible in every aspect of running the team is the ideal. The functions of a mentor should be limited to (in order of importance):

1) making sure the students don't hurt themselves with all those fun toys power tools they're working with.

2) corralling the students so that they can use their time effectively. This necessarily must include helping the STUDENT leaders of the group to a) gain moral authority and b) exercise their own leadership skills.

3) offering advice and expertise where needed with the caveat that it is THEIR ROBOT and they are free to ignore you as much as they want on this score.

Of these three, only number (1) is absolutely necessary. Safety is the only issue on which a mentor ever should put his/her foot down and force a student to do/not do something. The other two roles could theoretically be done without. Practically speaking, it is beneficial to have an adult around who can answer questions and provide leadership, but both of those roles should be as limited as possible. The ideal mentor's role is defined by what the kids need them to do, not by what the mentor wants or can do better than them. The mentor works for the team, not the other way around.

Kelly mentioned banning mentors from the pits. I, personally, would like to see this, though I understand that it's not going to happen any time soon. However, I think a good step in the right direction would be to make the "coach" position on the drive team limited to students only. Even if you have the best, least overbearing, most supportive mentor in the world, even if your mentor could do the "coach" job better than anyone else, that is a position that should be taken by a student. Fostering student leadership is a very important part of mentoring a FIRST team, and requiring the "coach" to be a student would be a step towards encouraging that.

To touch on the no-mentors-in-the-pits thing again: the fact that this was suggested by one of our sponsors (and not a student or even a mentor) is, I think, very telling. He is exactly the sort of person FIRST needs in order to expand: owners of midsize engineering firms with resources available for teams. He wasn't exactly scrutinizing other teams pits, but it was still clear to him that there were a number of teams with over-involved mentors, and it looked pretty bad to him. Obviously, one person is not a representative sample, but his attitude is surely not isolated. I believe that if FIRST wants to become truly mainstream, they are going to have to change their attitude on that issue.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The more I think about the "no mentors in the pits", the more I don't really like it.

Let me explain: There are competitions out there without mentors. I name no names. There is a FIRST competition where the students are supposed to do most/all of the work. That is FLL. The mentor involvement is what sets FRC apart.

Take the mentor involvement out of the pits for a moment. They're at your facility, ready to answer questions, help you, hold a part. Now, you get to the event and they can't enter the pit. You suddenly have something go wrong that you don't know how to fix. You have to tell the mentor who is in the stands or at work what the issue is, with no way to send pictures (the engineer's language) and only your words. The fix might not work, or might not even be possible. And, according to Murphy, something WILL go wrong, and most likely the precise event that would cause this situation.

It's like pulling a cane out from under a guy who only needs it occasionally. You pull it when he doesn't need it, and when he does need it, he goes down hard.

If you want pure student-built, limited mentor, go with FTC or a different competition. Or set your own rules about how many mentors may be in the pit. FIRST is about changing the culture, not conforming to it. But each team is free to choose how they do so. If a team wants to go more student-led, then great. If they want to go more mentor-led, great.

Also, the student/mentor coaching was brought up in another thread. I would suggest reading that. And, over-involved mentors has been brought up before (see thread "When do mentors go too far?" from some time ago).

I understand the sponsor's questioning, but I also have to ask: Is he seeing the goal of FIRST correctly? Are we all seeing that goal correctly? If he sees it as a "student-run robotics competition", then I think he sees incorrectly. Dave Lavery said something during Kickoff about teams without mentors missing out. (I don't remember exactly, but it's been posted on CD. I'm just too lazy to search right now.)

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Sorry, Eric, but this is an entirely erroneous characterization of FTC. There is no difference between FRC and FTC in the role of mentors. Only in FLL (and JFLL? -- I actually don't know) do coaches agree not to touch the robots.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I'm going to have to agree with Rick. @ Eric-Its also a big assumption if you don't personally know ALL the teams in FIRST. (including FTC and FLL)

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

EricH,
This may not be the one you were thinking of but it addresses some of this discussion.
Jane

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

lol

Dave: The Answer to All of Life's Problems. :p

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I've searched for this quote before and had a hard time finding it. I tried to remember a word in the quote to search for but somehow forgot. Hopefully, I'll be able to remember next time.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Ideally, the students would have been so heavily involved with building the robot, they know how to fix it better than the mentors. During the years I was on 1418, by competition time, there was nothing the mentors knew about our robots that at least one team member didn't know better. Build season is another story, that's when general engineering experience comes in handy, but at competitions it's all about knowing your machine.

I don't see how heavier involvement from mentors helps FIRST change the culture any more. If anything, I think it does the opposite. Kids learn in school how to sit and watch and be detached from science while they follow advice (orders) from their elders. We already know that professional engineers can build robots. What's really culture changing is when kids can do it for themselves. (and they can, when the mentors step back)

EricH also alluded to other hands-off for adults competitions, and I thought of Odyssey of the Mind. The best part of OM is seeing the crazy and inventive stuff students come up with when no one tells them the 'right' thing to do. My mom was a judge for several years and she said it was pretty easy to tell which projects the parents had done and that the kids' projects were generally better.

The feeling of ownership I got from my FIRST and OM teams has no comparison and surely has made me a much better person than yielding control to the mentors would have.
God, I miss touch typing. I apologize in advance for any grammatical oddities, I'm not used to thinking so much faster than I can get words down.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

So what does that leave as the role of a sponsor? Sending the team bags of money and applauding whatever happens next?

I've read this discussion, and have only this to add. Why was this sponsor not more involved with the team? Why did he not know what the competition was about, how the robots were built, how the teams are run? I think far too often teams have their key group of mentors, some of whom may come from school and some from a sponsor or two. But they forget to keep the rest of their sponsors informed of what is going on. Why should sponsors keep sending money if they don't know how it is being spent?

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Mentors:

should promote advanced skills building on those learned during the day.
Offer training in skills not yet approached in school.
force the development of communication skills in students.
show students how to work as a team of students and adults.
will show students how to efficiently approach problems.
will lead by example when showing how to handle disagreement.
will show passion about the process and try and pass it along to students.
will not take themselves too seriously.
will help students develop "Moral authority" (I love that statement for whoever said it in this thread)
Will help lay the building blocks of ethics
need to demand safety
need to have an open mind, even for new ideas
(stopped here due to time)

Students:

need to want to work with the best minds available.
need to crave more knowledge.
need to take iniciative.
need to demand a quality product after the six weeks.
need to spread the excitement of the program to the rest of the school.
need to realize they need help to expand on things that have been developed since the dawn of man.
should feel comfortable in telling their mentors want.
need to have and open mind, even for old ideas.
(stopped her due to time)

As I was making this list I realize a student needs to be at a certain level to appreciate it and expand on it. I think I would not have been able to understand some of this when I was in high school. I think I would have told you to flip sand instead of listen to the people around me. I do see however in some four year FIRST students the ability use their mentors as the valuable resource they are.

Now back to my job.

Hope it helps in some way

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I'm getting a bit annoyed by everyone who keeps insisting that our sponsor must be ignorant of how FIRST works if he would propose a crazy idea like expecting students to understand their own machines. He understands the policies about mentors, he just disagrees with them. And so do I, for the reasons I've outlined in this thread.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The partnership potential involving engineers, professionals, students, sponsors, and parent support, creates endless opportunities for removing limits and allowing access to knowledge, experience, and the standards of excellence.

Students can do a lot, they can't do it all. They don't have the skill sets or experience. They won't gain those in 6 weeks but they can be exposed to them if they are working in partnership with engineers and professionals.

On the other hand, if adult mentors are doing it all without the benefit of partnership with the students and sponsors, etc., then they, too, are setting limits on what the team can do and can achieve. When I look at our HoF teams, it is very clear to me that these teams have figured out how to maximize their partnerships, their strengths, and their team potential. Each of these outstanding teams is unique - no two are alike - but they have these qualities in common. Everyone works together towards the same goal, achieving excellence, and setting the bar for the rest of us.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I believe that I am right there with you Kelly.

I'm not going to pound my beliefs or my teams' goals into others BUT................

Our robot will always be student built.

The only time you will ever see a mentor in our pit working is in an extreme emergency and then you will see them showing students how to fix the problem. We did 3 events this year. No mentor working in St. Louis or Milwaukee. We had a mentor helping/showing students how to fix major problem in Atlanta.

I have a problem with the thinking of some if they believe that this experience is not similar to a normal lab setting. Students do not learn from watching a teacher performing a tune-up in the auto shop. Students learn by doing that tune-up after they were given direction.

We were next to a team at an event that NEVER had students around except when they showed up to get the robot to compete. The mentors were constantly tweaking/fixing the robot by themselves. Again, to me, this is a major opportunity lost for the students.

For us, we have a model that has been successful for the first two years of our existence. It involves having the students take on the responsibilities of the team. We as mentors guide, direct, give instruction, teach, give demo's. But students do the work or it does not get done.

We will never build a robot, decide on its design, write a chairman's submission, create a web page or make a CAD drawing.

But we show students how to do all of these things, help with spelling and grammar and help them setup time lines so they can be successful.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

"Ideal" does not mean the same thing in all situations. Inspiration works just as well for some teams whose students are stretched past their competence levels as it does for other teams whose mentors did nothing the students weren't capable of doing on their own.

I think you might be misunderstanding the difference between inspiration and learning. In order to "change the culture" we don't necessarily need to show people how to do something. We just need to show what is possible with the right training and study. That training and study is not all going to happen within the time constraints of an FRC season, but the relatively brief bits of inspiration can easily influence the rest of a student's educational career.

If you want to focus on a "kids can do it for themselves" environment, I think you're going to miss out on a big part of the experience of having engineering mentors as part of the team. High school students should not be expected to have the same skill sets as professional engineers who have had years more of study, learning, and practice in the relevant fields. The same goes for machining, programming, team-building, fundraising, networking, recruiting, strategic planning, etc.

Mentors are the fundamental resource around which FIRST is built. To marginalize them would be to waste that resource.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I think you're missing part of my earlier point. If we wanted to show students what professional engineers can accomplish, it would be a lot cheaper for teachers to just stick a NOVA special on the Apollo program in the VCR and pop out for a coffee. Programs like FIRST deserve to exist because they show students that THEY can become engineers and build cool things. Science has a bit of a stigma in our society and kids think they need to be super-geniuses to excel in it and programs like FIRST can dispel that myth.

To quote myself: "Build season is another story, that's when general engineering experience comes in handy, but at competitions it's all about knowing your machine." Mentors are wonderful during the build season and
I'm not proposing we eliminate them from FIRST entirely. I just think students should have a large enough role on the team that they can capably work on it in the pits.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I would like to reiterate what Kelly has said about our sponsor: he was not as involved as a team member or mentor, obviously, but he was not just some god throwing money down from Olympus. He knows what FIRST is. He just happens to disagree with the way the program is run in that regard.

Here's where I think you're wrong. You do not need years and years of training to design and build a reasonably competent robot for FRC. You need years and years of training to build a perfect robot, yes, but I don't think the goal of FRC should be to produce perfect robots (and I don't think you think that either). As many pure student design/build teams (such as my own) have shown, it is possible for a group of high school students to produce a decent, functional robot with minimal (NOT nonexistent) engineering guidance from adults. Our engineering mentors have always acted as resources to be tapped, not dictators.

If I want to see what years of experience can get me, all I have to do is go look at my car. Or my cellular telephone. Or the ice maker in my refrigerator. I am literally surrounded by incredible inventions made by engineers. I don't need FIRST to see how wonderful and smart engineers are.

The thing is, just looking at the products of modern science and technology doesn't inspire much. The reason people shy away from technical fields is that they see it as some kind of black magic. Look, the engineer goes into his office, and then couple months later blueprints come out. Isn't that amazing? By having the mentors design and build the robot, the students don't get any more of an inspiring experience than taking a factory tour. All they see is magicians using tricks they learned in wizard school. However, by getting the experience of experimenting and modifying and implementing a design themselves, students realize that engineering isn't magic after all. It doesn't take a degree to make a robot; all it takes is you picking up a drill and actually building it. Even growing up in a family of scientists and engineers, that was quite possibly the best lesson I took away from FRC: being an engineer doesn't mean having a degree, it means having the patience to do the work; I can do this, too.

I can tell you right now that I would never, ever have joined my robotics team if I hadn't been allowed to be involved in the actual business of design and construction. "Watch Professionals Build a Robot Club" would have bored the stew out of me. Even if I had joined a team like that, I'm certain I would not have gotten nearly as much out of the program as I did. As it is, I am eternally grateful for my team and especially for my wonderful mentors. I think I am a much better person for having participated.

(Credit where credit is due: I didn't come up with the "black magic" analogy. One of my teammates did. It's the best way to explain it I've ever heard.)

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

We're apparently talking past each other. I agree with what I see you saying, but it seems to be presented in an argumentative tone. Maybe I didn't word my thoughts as well as I could have, or maybe you're assuming a bias on my part that is coloring your interpretation of what I wrote.

Here's a minor revision to one of my earlier statements that might help clear things up: In order to "change the culture" we don't necessarily need to show people how to do something. We just need to show what they are capable of doing with the right training and study.

I didn't accuse anyone of wanting to eliminate mentors, so I don't know why you chose to deny it. I certainly never suggested that students shouldn't be expected to work on the robot.

If he disagrees with FIRST's emphasis on mentoring, I think he might merely think he knows what FIRST is. Have him get involved -- or at least watch a little more closely -- and take a while to reassess his opinion. Have him look at the results (number of students going on to pursue careers in science and technology) and then ask him again if he disagrees.

Inspiration doesn't come from seeing the products. It comes from seeing the process, from realizing that doing it is within (or just barely beyond) your grasp, and from being a part of it. The inspiration is from participating in the design and build and competition, with the mentors.

If anyone has misunderstood my position to be defending cases where the mentors do everything and the students merely watch, please correct that misunderstanding now. The FIRST experience can't be compared to a science lecture or a documentary video. FRC teams in particular should be recognized as close partnerships between students and mentors.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

If you're already motivated enough to want to build a robot; to believe that students can do a job as good or better than professionals, FIRST has run its course for you. A FIRST team can still teach you valuable technical and leadership skills, but its mission of inspiration is complete. You are not its target.

FIRST is for the kids that don't think that a group of students can do just as well as a group of mentors or that think they are not smart or capable enough to become involved in the process. FIRST is about reaching out to them, holding their hand and showing them what they can accomplish. Once they've taken those first few steps, we hope that inspiration takes hold and they become like you and other students that are driven to learn and do more.

For those kids, mentor involvement is absolutely necessary to overcome the expectations our society has placed on what it means to be intelligent, thoughtful and creative.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Mentors are needed in the pits and on the field.
I had the privilege of being on the ref crew under the leadership of our head ref, Andy Baker, at the inaugural OKC Regional. Our emcee was Wayne Penn. Emcees are entertaining yes, but they work very hard to help keep the competition running smoothly and on time. They also use a lot of common sense in helping to support the efforts of the rest of the volunteers and in working with the teams.

Andy coached his ref crew, advising us to mentor the teams during this competition. Let them know when they did something right. Let them know where they could improve. If there were penalties, he would make sure everyone understood why. If they had questions, he made the time to answer them. The majority of the competitors were rookie teams and we all worked together to support the efforts of these teams, as did the veteran teams that competed at the regional. Mentors came in from all over the nation to volunteer in the pits as well as everywhere else, helping the teams understand the regional, the competition, and to achieve their goal - to play the game to the best of their ability.

At every regional, every competition, including the Championship event, there are rookie team members and rookie teams who need the added support and resourcefulness of the mentors. (There are veteran teams, like mine, who need that support as well.)

OKC was an amazing event because of everyone working together to make it one.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Wow,
Where did that come from? He never said that students can do a job as good or better than professionals when building a robot. You totally missed the point.

I believe that there are two simple points here. Students learn, grow and have fun learning by doing. They need to be active aprticipants.

I believe that there is an underlying concern that few are willing to address/talk about. Some mentors and students are turned off by the perception that there are teams out there where the robot is totally built by the mentors. You can attempt to justify this any way you want but student teams get turned off thinking that they will never do well because they are competing against engineers NOT other students. .

I'll have nothing to do with this passive involvement of the students. If we can not motivate and educate them to produce a functional machine, we have failed.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

(This response really ought to have been sent as a Private Message, but Sunshine has chosen not to receive PMs. Apologies to everyone else for making you read it.)

Actually, he did:

Whether or not you intend it, you're coming across as overly defensive. Like "CommanderRachek", you're arguing against a position that nobody here has promoted.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

You're right, it's not the one I'm thinking of. The one I'm thinking of was DURING the Kickoff, later transcribed here.

Kelly, could you answer my question from my first post in this thread? It might make it easier to communicate. We'll at least have a better idea of where we each stand.

Sunshine, read the rest of the post. She also says (right after the part you quote, BTW) "A FIRST team can still teach you valuable technical and leadership skills, but its mission of inspiration is complete. You are not its target." I think you missed her point.

Also, I remember someone saying (this is in the spotlights) "Your second year on the team is your first year as a mentor." Tell your sponsor that. Live it. It's true. Students are mentors. Now that's something you don't see too often outside of FIRST.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I think what Madison was trying to say was that FIRST is trying to change culture by getting more students interested in engineering, making science and technology professionals the heros of our culture. Obviously, you who argue that students can build a robot, that you really respect engineers, already understand that. FIRST really wants to inspire those who would never have thought about engineering - who would never have even dreamed of it as a career - who never even thought about all those cool gadgets CommanderRatchek mentioned in his post and where they came from. I was one of those students. I had never even dreamed of engineering as a career before I joined a FIRST team. I decided against going into it because it's not where my strengths lie, but FIRST made me seriously consider engineering as a career. That is how FIRST is changing the culture, not by giving students who already know they want to be engineers an chance to play with robots. Without mentors, those students will not get any exposure to what engineering really is.

I've probably told this story before, but it's a really telling one. One of the students a year older than me on my old team (which was basically completely student run - we had mentors who we used as "tools," like you're describing, who never got involved in the design/build process) had never really thought of engineering before joining FIRST. Once she joined, she thought about it a bit, then discarded the idea, because all she knew was the process we were muddling through - she thought that was "engineering," and wasn't really into it. She went through two years on the team, but didn't have any exposure to mentors, and applied to university for Biology. At the Greater Toronto Regional in 2007, we had the chance to work closely with engineers on 1114, who designed ramps alongside us - worked with us through the design procedure, and gave us fantastic ideas on how to make it work, that we as students never thought of. They designed and built our ramps with us, and I remember after the experience, she turned to me and said "That was so cool, that's what real engineers do. I really wish I had applied to engineering at university." She is currently attempting to switch into engineering, but that is an extremely difficult thing to do. If we had had mentors who helped us design and build our robot, worked through the engineering process with us, her life would be completely different.



Rachek: This debate has gone on through plenty of threads, and all I will say is this - by having the mentors design and build the robot ALONGSIDE the students, they can understand how that "black magic" works. They can go "oooh, cool, maybe I want to learn how to do that." Without that "black magic," things don't work very well, or not nearly as well as they could. I doubt there are many, if any, teams out there that have the engineers design and built the entire robot with no input from the students and no exposure of the students to the process. I don't think anyone in this thread has advocated mentors designing and building a robot in complete secrecy from the students on the team.

One thing in your post I will take a big issue with - it DOES take a degree to be an engineer. If you do not have an engineering degree, you are not an engineer. I seem to remember a thread on this from a while back, but my limited ability to search seems to not be able to find it.


Okay, that was excessively long. Whoops.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

There has been a lot of talk about what role mentors should play in relation to the build season. I don't care what area the mentor works in or what philosophy the team uses; mentors are supposed to be inspirational supporters. To me, it goes beyond FIRST. I'm going to be there for my kids whether they have questions about college or where to mount the controls. I realize what FIRST stands for; however, I think the most important portion is the inspiration part. Sometimes it seems like too much emphasis is put on the technology part. It is great if a kid learns how to use technology but I think it is more important they learn in general. Learn how to work on a team; learn to meet deadlines; learn how to work hard but still have fun; learn what they like or dislike; learn how to be a better leader; learn why helping others is important; and of yeah, learn how to build a robot:p .

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I decided to find it... Turns out, Jane has a better sense of what I'm thinking of than I do.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=113 has the transcription (in a thread on mentors working on the robots).

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

It seems that many people are completely misunderstanding the "black magic" analogy that Kelly and Rachel have brought up. Perhaps this will clear it up.

The idea is something like this. Most people's conception of engineering is that an engineer goes into a room for a while, produces blueprints through black magic, which then [black] magically get turned into some really useful/cool technology. People understand that this happens, and they might even have a good idea of how it happens. You can watch a TV special on, say, the Manhattan Project, and look at every single step that they took when designing what they were working on. This would be roughly analogous to students watching a mentor designed and built robot. What would be more useful (and inspiring, perhaps), would be for the students to do it themselves. There is a big gap between watching someone else go through the process and doing it yourself. When the intellectual and technological burden is on you, and you are able to make a functioning and overall decent (at least) robot, you can see the engineering process as a whole, and, what's more, come out with the knowledge and confidence that you can do this, that you can solve the problem and work from there.

I was in the same class and team as Kelly and Rachel (1418, GMHS '07), and on my first year ('05), and every year afterwards I worked on the robot, I was able to look back on that bot and understand that the process of engineering wasn't simply the black magic of super-geniuses like Feynman, Oppenheimer, etc., but a process of solving problems that I could understand and work through myself.

If that ain't inspiration, then I don't know what is.

p.s. Way to default to masculine pronouns even when the person in question is named Kelly. Gender neutral at least, come on.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

How is that different from the analogy that your teammates are using and others are replying to? Engineer produces blueprints which become technology. The main difference I see is when the "black magic" happens--which side of the blueprints/production drawings it's on. And exactly when it happens doesn't matter for this.

I do not think that you see the engineering process from simply building a robot. I could go out there, grab a Kitbot, follow the instruction manuals on assembly and the wiring diagrams on the wiring, hook it up, and have a running, decent, functioning, halfway competitive robot. That is NOT engineering process! That's assembly. Now, I might need engineering process to make it rules-compliant, but I'm just as likely to try the seat-of-the-pants approach because all you need is a pole and some non-duct-tape tape, or some cardboard, and you can have a rules-compliant robot as well, no engineering process required.

Engineering process involves determining requirements that must be met, finding solutions to the objective that meet those requirements, analyzing to see which is best, and then detail-designing and building the solution. It's kind of hard to learn that without engineers. You're right, there is a big gap between watching someone go through it and going through it yourself, specifically that it's a whole lot more interesting when you go through it. However, if you go through it without guidance, then you may be like a traveler without a map or compass--you get out all right a time or two, but you need help the rest of the times you're lost.

BTW, there isn't a SINGLE robot in FIRST that I'm aware of that is mentor-designed and -built. If you can think of one, you're going to need proof that that is the case before you say they are. So your entire "video" analogy is not applicable to FIRST that I'm aware of.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Sorry, that was an editing mistake. Both sides of the process count as black magic.

Also, you just pretty much declared FIRST useless! Cheers!

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

If you don't take the time to READ what I wrote, ALL of it, then I won't waste my time.

I didn't say FIRST was useless, I said that I could build a robot, that would be competitive, using materials provided by FIRST, WITHOUT using engineering process. I said NOTHING whatsoever about relation of that to FIRST, likelihood of teams to do that, or any such thing.

Now, would I do that? NO!!!! That's because the engineering process tells me that unless I build something better than a boxbot, I'm going to get creamed. And then I use the same engineering process to build a robot.

I would suggest reading the full post before replying, in future.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Well good for you. Have you ever considered that there is a viable middle ground to what you're suggesting? That that middle ground is actually what happens on most FIRST teams? Mentors and students work TOGETHER to design and build a robot. I'm pretty sure there are approximately 0 teams out there who do what you're suggesting - have students sit there and watch while the mentors do everything. I don't understand who you're accusing here, because there isn't anyone out there doing what you say is so bad. Sure, some teams have mentors in the pits - as other people have pointed out, you have no idea what's going on there. Ever heard the expression "don't judge a book by its cover??"

Inspiration can come about in a multitude of ways. I'm glad you were inspired. Just because you think your way works doesn't mean you can say other ways don't. Have you ever been on a team that you think mentors do all the work and don't inspire their students? I have experienced being on a team that has completely student designed and built robot, and working hand in hand with engineering mentors to design and build a robot as a student. Both inspire. In my opinion, I was infinitely more inspired by working alongside industry professionals to design and build a robot - having them share their ideas with us, us share their ideas with them and having help working through those ideas. But maybe that's just me. There is a big gap between seeing someone do something and doing it yourself - but there is also a big gap between being guided and helped along by a professional in the field and doing it yourself.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Everyone's posts are clear. The trick is to go back and read each post and understand what each person is saying. I believe Alan said this earlier, we may be talking past each other. That can happen when we feel passionate about the topic and obviously, this is a topic that can become heated.

I'm not sure that we are still talking about what the OP had in mind in starting this thread though. If we still are, maybe someone can summarize and make some bullets of the key points.

Go inspiration!

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Yea please read the posts first to actually give useful information instead of adding an insult to another person's post. Thanks.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

It isn't. David simply expressed it much more eloquently than either myself or Kelly (who's a girl by the way. Don't know where that came from).

Well, actually, "Alan Anderson," nobody needs to promote it to me because I have seen its effects with my own eyes. I can distinctly remember the Thursday night of my very first regional competition. My team was in the pits very late attempting to ready our robot for inspection. There were several other teams evidently in the same predicament, as even as late as a half hour before we were ejected from the building, there were other clusters of people gathered in several other pits. However, there was a striking difference between us and the other night owls. We were the only group of students there. Every other group still there consisted entirely of adults.

Clearly, the students on these particular teams were not sufficiently inspired to be bothered to even watch their robots get completed. This is not a theoretical possibility based on conjecture. This is what I have seen with my own eyes.

For what it's worth, our infamous sponsor from upthread was there too.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Did you actually talk to those teams to determine if there were no students there? I know many students who have been mistaken for mentors because they look older than they are. Did you actually look and try and see what they were doing? Maybe those "clusters of people" were just doing routine repairs, or putting things away, or tidying up the pit. Maybe their only issue for inspection was getting the robot to fit in the sizing box, and the mentors kindly offered to do the hour of filing necessary so the students could get some food and rest. Perhaps the students on the team had a curfew that they couldn't stay past - maybe their bus left early, and all of the students had to be on it. (Yes there are legal issues with mentors driving students places, unless the proper forms have been signed.)

There are way too many variables in this situation for you to EVER make a judgment about a team based on one observation. You can't judge the level of inspiration of their students by one quick glance at their pit. What you are saying is absolutely a theoretical possibility based on conjecture. You have no idea what goes on on those teams. Stop pretending to, and maybe next time go ask what's going on. The answers may surprise you.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I've never seen exclusive mentors-only for the entire pits at any of the regionals I've ever attended, so you do have an interesting story.

My team has been guilty of leaving mentors behind alone on occasion, but only for critical issues. Most often repairs or corrections just wait for the next day.
School policy demands that students travel as a group and they have to be back long before the pits close on Thursday. Policy also forbids me to drive students anywhere.
Sometimes we've been able to keep select students back by signing them out to their parents if their parents can stay and transport them, but unfortunately that's rarely the case for the pit crew students.

I actually had comments for the original poster, but this thread has been hijacked so far off course (on a path the OP specifically requested we not take) that they won't make any sense now...

Please just stop being nasty to one another.

BTW: Jane, the official Kickoff transcript is at: http://robotics.nasa.gov/events/first/08transcript.php

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Oh there it is. yay!
Thank you, Mark.

Jane

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Commander,
I feel a need to interject some fact here so there will be no misunderstanding in the future. As a lead inspector, I have worked long and hard with teams in the pit and have seen those rare occassions when mentors were left working on robots. In many of those cases, they chose to stay while releasing their students to travel back to school, participate in another school activity (testing, band or orchestra concert, prom) or allow them to finish some school required homework prior to the rigors of competition. I know of several teams where the lead teacher assigns work that must be completed by the end of the weekend in addition to other school work. In all of those cases, this was a TEAM decision. I know of at least one school where the students had to travel by public transportation to reach the regional each day. That was a 2.5 hour ordeal to the inner city each way. I applaud the mentors and teachers who help teams make those decisions.
Eric, unfortunately, there are robots designed and built by adults in this competition. Each team decides for itself how it must be run. I for one stand on the side of the fence that promotes team decisions and adults working side by side with students. Although there are some decisions which should be reserved for team leads, most others should be by the team.
We as mentors should balance our decisions and statements on the benefit to the students. All too frequently, people forget this simple fact. If a decision by a mentor(s) adversely impacts the students on the team, then that decision needs to be rethought. I think that teams can have a great time when they have a competitive robot and try their best. For student only teams, they lack some of the experience that engineering mentors can bring to the team. Conversely, mentors need to learn from the students and the competition. I often astound my fellow engineers by using techniques I have learned in this competition. Students inspire me to do better and learn more. I hope that I am returning that favor.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Who's David, and what did he (or she) say? I find no expressions, eloquent or otherwise, attributed to anyone of that name in this thread.
This is based on conjecture. You're assuming things for which you have no evidence. In your example, you see clusters of apparent adults in teams' pits late on a Thursday, and you conclude from your observation that the students were not sufficiently involved in designing and building the robots. Several other plausible "theoretical possibility" explanations of what you saw have already been proposed. Without talking to the teams you're referring to, we can't know what was actually the case.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Our students needed to leave the regional on the bus on Thursday night about an hour before the pits closed, per school rules. The robot was still not ready for competition. They begged and pleaded to stay, but rules are rules, and all of the students went home on the bus. Some mentors fixed the robot that night, and everything was good to go the next day. It just felt wrong the entire time knowing the students couldn't be there, but it had to get done. The students and the mentors both realized that it was for the better of the team to have a working robot.

So, is our team bad? Are the students not inspired?

I would think more carefully before making such offensive blanket statements in the future.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

You know ... it's absolute statements like this that really drive me crazy.

I am an engineer for Parker.
I do not have an engineering degree.
I have 20 years experiance in Electrical Engineering.
I have 7 years experiance in Mechanical Engineering.
I have an associates degree in Information Technology (not an Engineering degree)

I can (and do) design fixtures and robots.
I can (and do) calculate tolerance stackups and run (stress) bending analysis.
I can (and do) sepcify components based of the requirements of the project.
I can (and do) calculate the number of Amp-turns in a solonoid.
I can (and do) run SPC and 6 Sigma calculations.
I can (and do) work in a functional design team enviroment.
Etc,etc,etc.

Which part of being an engineer am I not?

School gives you the tools you will need to be an engineer, but school is not the only place where you can get those tools (although I would not suggest my route ... as the school of hard knocks is far harder). Experiance teaches you how to use those tools. Both education and experiance are needed (usually) to become an engineer, but where you get these is not exclusive to school.

Please try and avoid using absolutes when dealing with human beings, as you will invariably run into someone (in this case me) whom is the exception to the rule.

Sorry Kate, I just don't agree with you.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I don't want to drag this too off topic, so here is the thread I was talking about - http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29746. There is plenty of discussion in there on the topic of what constitutes an engineer.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

A mentor's job is to enable the learning of the student in the best way they can. These means may change from mentor to mentor but the responsibility is the same. Do the best you can.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I have some general thoughts regarding the general responsibility of a mentor, philosophical at that. But I'll start with the meat of the question at hand.

Paragraph 2 response: I've seen it work best with whoever steps up to the plate to head certain parts, whether it be the sponsor's employees, parents, or teachers. I hate to put Darwinism into it, but a form of 'natural selection' seems to be a determining factor to how a team structures itself. When it comes to the responsibilities of running a team: a mentor's main responsibility is to do what he/she thinks is reasonably possible just to keep the team afloat and as a team. They need to be a sort of glue that keeps the team together and functioning. 'How' it is done is a whole different story, dependent on the team location, outside events, etc.

So we goto paragraph 3: Where does the responsibility fall when important things are left undone? My thought is this - Imagine 'n' people surrounding a water balloon. Each person has pins, and they begin to poke the balloon with the intention of popping it. One of three things can happen:

1. The balloon pops, the team of 'n' people has done its job.
2. The balloon fails to pop. Some subset of people on the team get the clever idea to grab a hammer or larger object to smash/pop the balloon (thinking outside the collective box). The job is still done and the team succeeds. (This is a rather simple way of putting it. There could have been people within the team politicking to pop the balloon with pins only, nothing else, thus leading to...)
3. The balloon fails to pop. Nobody does anything about it. The team does not do the job it has set out to do.

This is where pointing fingers is null of any point (no pun intended). So long as there was an effort, there's no blame or responsibility to take for failure. Somebody tried, and either succeeded or failed, and they still represent the team. I hope this is a pretty general answer to your inquiry in paragraph 3, absolute answers seem insufficient in my mind.

Coming off of those thoughts, I tried/try to be myself, be 'me' while being a 'me'ntor. I try to show what to do, teach what not to do (because I have probably done it myself and learned from it), and let others discover in real time all while offering some ideas on problems at hand. I am not afraid or embarrassed to make a goof because its part of being human: a commonality between mentors, sponsors, teachers, parents, students, etc. And when I do, I admit, apologize, and append to my mental list of things to do and not to do.

So in general, the responsibility(ies) of being a mentor/adviser is just to lead by example, by being human, and all while getting what needs to get done as done as possible (some things are really impossible to get done). Mistakes are great, for it makes room for more lessons to be taught, which is a point of mentoring. Just take a humanistic approach to it (punish the act not the person). Let things just fall in place naturally, including leaders who set up and fill positions that keep a team running. If guiding is needed, find a guide to do it (including you).

As a side note: I think what psychologists call observational learning is great for learning what to do and what not to do in any situation, good or bad, for students and leaders alike. Some food for thought by example from my own experiences can be found here and here (Key lessons learned: realize context, and avoid discussing volatile and flammable issues. 'Observe' and learn from the mistakes others make, including me). There's also operant conditioning, which is what I experienced in those events above. Psychology is a great thing to know as a mentor/adviser or anything in leadership for that matter.

One more thing: go here and download the powerpoint. How relevant it is to the subject here is up in the air, but I'll link to it nonetheless. (You'll need Powerpoint 2007 or the viewer to view it.) It has some great thoughts (some are a bit iffy, but mostly good. it is the opinion of the author who made it).

Hope this is a good couple cents here.

_Joe

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Understood. However, I was making a point--if you're going to say that team XXXX (or a non-specific team) is mentor-built, you need evidence (which happens to be lacking in this case/possible case). I personally have no experience with such teams; indeed, the teams I know sometimes have too little mentor involvement at key moments. I don't know of any that are built by adults, and I choose not to know which they are, should there be some. There may be one or two, and I think of the "Dad at Christmas" analogy--you can only hope that the kid(s) get more involved.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

I wish you could meet my father. He's retired now, but he was a Senior Research and Development Engineer for an aerospace company, where he was in charge of a prototype lab that designed and built new models of multi-processor guidance systems for supersonic anti-aircraft missiles. I'm sure that his employer would be quite surprised to learn that he couldn't be an engineer because he never received a Bachelor's degree.

Don't try to sound authoritative when you are just guessing, and don't force people into little boxes.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

On the "you need a degree to be an engineer" topic, I'd like to remind you of one Mr. Dean Kamen. I don't think he ever received a real engineering degree (honorary, I think so).

Now, that said... to call yourself a professional engineer, you need the PE exam, and for that you need a different exam and some years under PEs, and for that exam I think you need college. Not sure about the graduate with a degree part, but certainly on the path to it, IIRC.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

O RLY? http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf04333/
The NSF would beg to differ.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Okay guys - I would like you to please look at the thread that I linked a bunch of posts up. This discussion has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and I'm sure the original poster would like it somewhat back on track. That opinion of mine had to do with a student expressing that, as a high school student, he could do what engineers do. I'm sure there are exceptions to what I stated - I admit that I put it in terms that were a bit too black and white - but generally, you do need a degree (or some sort of specific training involving years of experience) to be an engineer. As Dan_Lafleur pointed out, the way that doesn't involve a degree is long and hard, and there is no way a high school student could have been through it. There is plenty of good discussion (also regarding Dean Kamen) in that thread, so if you would like to discuss the topic more, and read some important opinions on it, here you are! There are many people in that thread who have expressed my opinion more eloquently that I ever could.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29746 (link should work now)

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Joe,
That was a neat post. A lot of food for thought there.

One of the reasons I think the FRC program is successful in so many ways is because of the working side by side opportunities between the student and the mentor. Usually because of the time constraints, there is a lot of pressure and students see/observe how their mentors handle the pressure and the job performance.

Many many of the engineers and professionals that I have met and talked with in FIRST are very committed to the program and the development of the students. I have favorite memories from FRC but I'm gaining new ones from FLL and FTC as well. Sometimes it is from observing the interactions of the mentors with the students. Sometimes it is from watching the mentors calm the students down right before they enter the room where the judges are. Sometimes it is from respectfully listening to a mentor telling the team why did they did not win the medal or award but that they put forth their best effort - that someone else did something a little bit better or a little differently that caught the judges' eyes or ears. Sometimes when I'm listening, I'll see the mentor's eyes get teary. It doesn't matter if I'm in Texas or Indiana or Florida or Georgia - mentors that I meet are made up of character and integrity and they love working with students.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Dean also does not call himself an engineer (he characterizes himself as an "inventor").


.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

And entrepreneur.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The Responsibilities of a Mentor? Good Question...several people in this post are focusing soley on engineers.

I'm not an engineer. I am a mentor. I could not engineer my way out of a tight parking space.

As I see them my responsibilities are to set a good example. To show sportsmanship, postive attitudes and to teach the students they can do what they never thought they could and then lead the celebration when they realize they can.

I also think its my job to handle the details...to make sure the paperwork is done, everyone gets fed and we all know how we are getting there and where we will sleep. Its also my job to make sure that insurance is covered and all safety measures are taken.

Its my job to drive them to companies and give them a pep talk before a cold call. Its my job to drive the robot to demos and make sure the DVD works. Its my job to remind them to send thank you notes. Its my job to remind them of homework and mothers day and to call their girlfriends.

Its my job to hound them to fill out scholarship forms, college apps and other paperwork.

Mostly its my job to help them grow up and become the amazing group that they are. I know that watching them inspires me constantly.

If stuff falls through the cracks....well it can be my fault too, and teaching them to accept responsiblity is my job too.

Sorry for the long one...just trying to get this thread back on track.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Kate,

I looked at the thread you referenced, it is a good one with lots of good discussion involved.

Wen, good luck with the track thing.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

The main role of the mentors on our team is to give as much edumication to the students as possible! The team members are all basically taught how to be engineers; managing projects, working out schedules, designing, revising, testing, working as a team, testing again... This is basically just a place where high school kids can learn how to solve problems properly, and it's the job of the mentors to teach them how to do that.

Who built the robot is not really important, as long as the team members all got a good dose of the engineering process.

I think that our team ran very smoothly this past year; the mentors taught a bunch, the students learned a bunch, and everyone worked together to complete a challenging problem. ...And afterwards, there is a distinct advancement in everyone's ability to solve these types of problems. It's fun to compare robots built by students when they first came into the club to some of the designs they come up with now... the improvements are incredible!

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

Joe, Jane and others,
Thanks for the nice posts and a good reminder to bring everyone back to the topic of this thread. "Responsibilities of a mentor" And please remember to bring your GP when writing.

As to engineer discussions, please use the other linked threads for those discussions.
Thank You.

Re: Responsibilities of a Mentor
 

First, thanks again to everyone who has posted on topic. I find it very gratifying to see so many people in FIRST who take mentoring so seriously. I also find it very reassuring to see that so many people seem to agree on what a mentor is responsible for. For all of the arguements of engineer-built robots and student initiative, it's a good thing for FIRST that most of us are working toward the same goal.
Again, thank you to everyone who posted here in answer to my questions.