Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080520/...ct_taped_doors

The people who make these complaints should do one or both of the following:

A) Get a life.
or
B) Go on the trips themselves, & see what it's like to try & manage a group of students & then rethink their belief on suing over common practices like this.

It's easy to complain when you're sitting back home & sending your kids on a trip with other people. Time for people to step up & take (good) actions towards their kids rather than just complain.

Some people are just clueless. :ahh:

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

It's rather interesting that a choir had duct tape... :p

But in all seriousness, it really depends on how 'sealed' this door was, which I make the assumption it was just a few strips (the Yahoo story is not very detailed). Plus, I think the quote

says it all.

Conclusion: What ever happened to the good ol days of my parents when there were certain things that built character, instead of this sort of stuff?

*sigh*:confused:

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

wow that is sad that they would sue over their being tape on their kids door. I have gone on 4 spring trips durring high School and have had no problem with the taping in the rooms because it keeps us from doing stupid stuff like getting arested

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

The tape probably has little to do with whether or not you're arrested.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

This is a thought or two:

One way to eliminate problems with communication is to communicate.
In this case, it would mean that the person(s) in charge of the trip would communicate the travel plans to the parents of the students involved, as well as the students, in advance.

It is my understanding that many teams who have students staying in hotels, tape the room. This is to put the students on notice that there is room check and if the tape is removed or damaged, the adult checking will know the tape has been tampered with. If I have this wrong, please correct me.

The purpose of the taping should be conveyed to everyone involved so that they know going into it what is involved.

My second thought is that students and parents should be instructed as to the expected appropriate conduct and behaviors of the students and adults involved in travel and the consequences that will occur if the expectations are not met. Hotels are not playgrounds for student groups that travel and that should be made clear. It should also be made clear that the ramifications could include the team being kicked out of the hotel and/or not invited back for future stays.

Bottom line, travel plans and guidelines should be discussed with students, parents, chaperones, and leaders well in advance of the trip.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I remember a speech the head of Xerox Robotics Gene Wicks told our kids one time about taping them into their rooms: "If we have to tape you into your rooms, we're not taking you."

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

This is funny...but some people just have to have something to complain about. I wouldn't mind if it were me being taped, or taping somone else. Us teenagers just don't think sometimes, and I can see how they just wanted to keep anthing under control. I went on a trip, and there were several other groups, and they had a security officer on duty, so people couldn't bug other people trying to sleep. The case will probably be dropped, anyhow, if it even gets very far.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I understand the amount of liability trip chaperons take to allow us students to travel. These trips are a time for students to build character values such as being responsible and following a simple curfew. If we are taped inside of hotel rooms then we learn none of these values. We will simply become lunatics at every instance we are trusted and given freedom.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Unfortunately, there are those who don't "become lunatics" when given freedom. I would say that there are teams out there that have "troublemakers" on them. These kids may not need to deliberately do stupid things to get into trouble (i.e. they just do them without thinking). Any trouble is then blamed on the group. So the tape will enable the group to figure out who caused trouble or might have done so. Are these trips a time to build character? Yes. But I can understand why tape is used; the team/group doesn't want to run the risk of "Hey, you guys did xyz, don't come back ever again" when it was one or two students that were AWOL from their rooms at night.

What one student does affects the whole team. "One bad apple spoils the barrel."

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

The part of the article that caught my attention was that the student was panicked by the taping procedure, thinking about fire safety issues. I respect that.

I have yet to see a team be taped in and I asked someone to explain it to me when I started reading about it on CD. For new students traveling in a group it is not wise to assume they know about this particular type of room monitoring or chaperoning.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I was on a trip at the beginning of the month where we were tape in at night. I don't remember anyone saying anything negative about it aside from, "no wild party tonight." I don't really see anything illegal out of it and anyways anytime I've seen a door taped it was taped with masking tape or painters tape so that the pain wasn't damage. Now if you're a well bodied high school student and you can't break some tape shame on you.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

First of all, this kid and his mom are both whiners. There was some tape on their door. BFD. Anyone who thinks some duct tape around the edge of the door (and I doubt the ENTIRE door was sealed...it was probably like a 6" long piece of tape) is going to keep their kid from exiting in the case of an emergency is nuts. Stories like this represent everything that is wrong with the litigious nature of our society.

How is that true? If you were following curfew, you'd never even know your door was taped ;)

I was a student on a team, and I know I wasn't always following curfew. Now that I'm partially responsible for the wellbeing of kids on my team, I don't want them having any unnecessary opportunities to get into trouble.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

This shows a lot of what is wrong with society. First, I don't care how much duct tape was on the door, there is no way it will keep the door from opening. Plus, the doors open inwards. Second, there is the general practice of suing people for little things that really don't matter.

I don't think there was any wrongdoing in this incident.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Finally someone who has a brain, because I can tell you the whole state of Ohio doesn't or anyone working with the AP. This will change nothing, especially since an actual lawsuit going through the legal system is totally different than what is actually happening, some whiny parents complaining and throwing around loose threats.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I know that there are multiple teams and groups that follow the common practice of taping students in at night. This includes every school trip at my school district where students would be spending the night. There were certainly some exceptions on the robotics trips. For example drivers and scouts being taped in later on Friday nights once they got out of the pick meeting. But every student, regardless of years on the team, position on the team, or anything else, was taped in.

I know of a few teams that did not follow this practice, but after certain incidents they began and continue to follow this policy. I am in the general crowd of "Tape them in, if they follow curfew, they won't even know it's there." As long as the students are aware that they are being taped in, there should be no problems. If they need a mentor or chaperone they should be available by calling the chaperone's room.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Sure, tape them in. A lot of good that will do. If someone wants to break curfew, all they need to do is untape their door, and then untape all of the other doors.

As to the litigiousness, I think this is more a case of someone making idle threats. Consider that the article says "file charges", not "file suit". So it seems like they want to have the chaperone criminally indicted. Good luck with that. What would you charge them with, if the student was in fact able to open the door to exit in an emergency? Maybe there's a misdemeanour for violating the fire code?

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Well, it's not a lawsuit yet.

I have a feeling the kid and his parent misunderstood the quantity of tape being applied. An entire roll of good duct tape, carefully applied, might slow a hotel room door from opening in 130 milliseconds to, say, 480 mS, but surely the chaperones used a small strip (who has the time to really tape a whole door shut).

Now, if they had welded the door shut, I'd agree with the safety hazard. The hotel might frown upon that practice however.

Chapersones do need to account for some kids being more sensitive. We had a student one year who literally collapsed into tears when a man with dark skin walked towards him in the hallway. This poor businessman was just going to his room, and the kid had led an insulated life, and had never been within touching distance from someone who was not caucasian. It all ended well, but some time had to be spent calming him down. He is quite normal today, by the way.

So, all that had to happen was a statement form the chaperones: "We are putting a small strip of tape on your door, which will get unstuck if the door is opened. That's how we'll know if the door opened after curfew."


Don

PS:
Little did the chaperones know, but the astute student had learned how to re-stick the tape from inside the room...

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I sitting here shaking my head. Oh yeah there will be a lawsuit,and the school board will have many heated meetings over this. And there will be a few new rules and maybe someone will be forced to resign...

My question is....

Whats the big deal? Does anyone here really think that duct taping a door will keep it from opening? As for fire safety... smoke from the hall would have a tough time getting under the door.
Its a shame that someone felt the need to tape the door but I'm very sure they felt the need.
Its a shame the news media is jumping on this as they seem to be doing.
And its a shame that after this some will refuse to take kids on trips again and some groups might not be able to go on any future trips.

I guess next time they will just post a guard in the hall.

-p:cool:

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Agreed. There are high school students who do not travel and stay in hotels in groups unless they join a club or team. There isn't necessarily a lot of experience available to tap into as a resource or buffer. There's a lot of change, maturing, growth, and new experiences between 14 and 18, hopefully with some guidance along the way.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

In my opinion, this issue shouldn't have escalated into a lawsuit, but I can concede into understanding the frustration and worry that both the student and the parent feels.

It's uneasy to know that you're not trusted when you believe that you should be. Honestly, if a student can't be trusted, it's the trip coordinator's responsibility to not not grant that student the privilege of traveling. What is not the coordinator's responsibility is to create a 24-hour alarm system that makes it obvious when there has been an infraction. That's silly.

Those who may be accused of "thinking too much" might argue that a student may feel so uncomfortable, that if he or she awakes in the middle of the night and feels the need to obtain something to drink, that student might spend an uncomfortable night because of fear of the sever punishment that results from breaking curfew. Is that the type of system you want to employ: Instilling fear so that students abide by the rules? Of course it tends to work in society, but I'd like to think that any members of a robotics team would be a more mature than that.

It's about respect I think. We have a "watchdog" that monitors our halls when we go on trips. I honestly think she should be getting a good night's sleep instead of terrorizing kids by patrolling the traffic in our hallways.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Terrorizing kids? come on. Who's been terrorized by having someone supervise them?

It's a teacher/mentor/chaperone's responsibility to make sure that the kids are safe. If they think there are no consequences to breaking the rules, then it becomes a lot easier to break them. It has nothing to do with trust. Good kids do dumb things. Everyone does dumb things. If you have the ability to head off those dumb things before they become a reality, with no adverse effect on anybody (you'd have a real hard time convincing me a piece of tape on a kid's door is harming them), then why not?

If you're not leaving the room having tape on it shouldn't even affect you. If you're thirsty, you have a sink. If something happens and you *had* to open the door, call the teacher. I'm sure they'd be happy to know that you weren't running around the city at 3 am and just needed to let housekeeping in because there weren't enough towels for everybody.

Besides, all this assumes that said teacher isn't devious enough to have other methods of knowing you've left your room besides a piece of tape ;)

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I think we all feel the same way.

The question is, how does the trip coordinator know before the trip that a student can't be trusted? Especially if it's a big group? Yes, there are ways, but the coordinator might not notice the signs or might ignore them.

Also, what happens in a classroom when someone breaks a rule and is not punished? Wouldn't other students copy that? So an indicator that a rule has been broken enables the administrator to deal with it before it gets out of control.

On my old team, we had a system: at curfew, the phones in the students' rooms would ring and we'd hear, "Is everyone there?" to which we'd say who was and wasn't. The one or two times someone wasn't in their room and wasn't under permission to be out past curfew, there were consequences--once for the individual student and the other time in a earlier curfew for the whole team.

This wasn't a robotics team, but I see your point. That said, it's a rare thing for water not to be available in the room and the students have plenty of time (presumably) before curfew to get other drinks and have those in the room. I can't think of a reason to be out post-curfew, unless there's a group activity that goes long, in which case curfew would of course be extended. Instilling fear? Maybe. I see it as a lesson. The students have an obligation to respect the rules, and in the real world, when rules are broken, somebody suffers.

Do you respect the adults? Then you would stay in your rooms and the "watchdog" wouldn't be needed. It is all about respect, but respect goes both ways. The teachers should have your respect because they are your teachers; you have to earn it. The best way to earn it is to demonstrate that you are worthy of it. No broken seals, no encounters with the "watchdog", no violations of trust--those will earn the respect of the teachers and they will probably be willing to give you a little more leeway. (Assuming that district/school regulations allow it, of course.)

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I smell an opportunity here. Imagine this.

A computer in the hotel management office, networked to door sensors through out the hotel.

When the group checks in, the room door sensors are assigned to a group like "my robot team" and the clerk assigns a room(s) to be group leader.

So what happens is the computer monitors all the group doors, thereby creating 'virtual tape'. If the 'virtual tape' is broken then immediate notification is sent to the group leader.

The alarm sent to the group leader wake her up and makes her very cranky and she sends group goons out to chase kids back to their rooms.

The notification is immediate, you don't have to wait to check tape the next day, hours after potential problems.

Business opportunity knocks. Is there an engineer in the house ?

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

"Taping" is a common practice when chaperones need some sleep and there is suspect students on the trip. A small piece of tape is placed across the door and jamb such that it will show if someone has opened the door. It cannot be replaced by someone inside the room but serves no purpose in keeping the door from opening. Most hotels now frown on this activity as it damages the paint. However, in a real world, you would not take a student on a trip if you did not trust them. But as all good chaperones know, even a well behaved 20 year old will act like a 12 year old every once in a while. I also know of some teams that hire security guards to watch the hallway to keep students in their rooms. What ever works for the team, school district and students is determined on a team by team, school by school basis.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

People need to learn to follow the rules not because they are forced to, but because it is the best decision not only for everyone, but mostly importantly themselves.

Taping doors would be like putting a speed governor on any car driven by someone under the age of 18. An artificial limiter to prevent the person from breaking the speeding law does not address the root of the problem, which is the decision-making process of that person.

I'm not a fan of taping doors for high school students. (Although it's generally a good idea for middle school students). Rather, I intend to teach the students that they have a responsibility to don't do dumb things, and that I place a level of trust on them to follow these rules. If they screw up, then they better be prepared for absolute zero-tolerance discipline.

This has always been the philosophy of my high school team. Over the past six years, there has not been a single issue. In fact, in general the students have been so respectful of the rules, that there was an occasion a few years ago where they found a six-pack of beer in the hotel room in one of the drawers when they first checked in, and immediately notified the mentors and gave it to them. Why? Because they knew if they tried to hide it and the mentors found out, there wouldn't be any more robotics team for them.

As a mentor, I want to teach the students that even though they may have many chances throughout life to make bad decisions - whether now it's breaking curfew on field trips or later on it may be smoking/doing drugs or driving under the influence - they need to make a conscientious decision to always choose the right thing to do. Because in a few years, if they find themselves at a nightclub and they come across ecstasy, there won't be a strip of tape there to stop them.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Bingo in my mind. Our team does't tape doors either. And as Art suggests, I think its far better to teach the students respect and making the right decisions. Do we really care if the kid wants to go get a bucket of Ice at midnight? No. Do we generally find out if someone does something wrong? Yeah. We have a student leadership group that I like to think is very open with me, and we often discuss problems on the team. Not once has breaking curfew been a problem.

In my mind, I go back to that when I was in school, I never had a curfew at home (trips, all except my first year in robotics). My rule was just that I had to tell my dad when I was going to be home and where I was. If I was going to be late, or if I was going to go somewhere else, I would call my dad and let him know. I dont think he ever said no, a few times he probably said I should be home a bit earlier, but in general, he taught me to make good decisions, so he trusted me. To this day, a lot of times when I go home to visit I will call to let him know where Im going :)

Now as for the potential lawsuit, I think its a bit of an overreaction to sue. No one was actually hurt. But as a few people have said, I can also understand the kid having a panic attack. We have several kids that had never been on group trips before, and several that have been sheltered, and several that I could see overrreacting or getting upset at things. I think Jane is right in that the biggest deal is communication. We dont know from the article if it was or wasnt communicated, presumably not, but who knows. If the chaperones were reasonable and the kid was nervous about it, they could tape the door and ask him to open it so that he would see that it wasnt going to keep him stuck in there. But I also have to wonder if the kid was that worried, why didnt he or the other students in the room call a chaperone as soon as it happened to alleviate it?

I think we need to teach students to act respectfully, but communication is also a two way street. We should all do our best to make sure everyone understand, but being a team leader, I could see that after a while, you might forget a thing or two that might upset a kid. But really now adays, the things that get the news and that get people upset are so minor in comparison to the big picture, and this definitely seems like it could easily be solved without a lawsuit.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

As a mentor - If the kid needs taping, they they are staying home. We don't have the right kid.

If I were a student - I would not want to be in a group that needed taping. If I were a teenager I would most likely refuse the trip and get a new activity.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I know this arguement has been used in the past, but don't those kids need FIRST and be surrounded and influenced by postive role models the most?

I think some responsiblity has to be placed on the students who have to attempt to discourge rule breaking. Parents and mentors can influence those troubled students, but in the end the person's peers influence them the most. Instead of taping doors or not taking potentially troubled students, the students need to create a culture where breaking the rules is looked down upon and not tolerated.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

This may be a little off topic.
What do you think would happen if, in the opinion of the judge, that a lawsuit was frivolous and the lawyer was fined? Do you think there would be less stupid lawsuits?

Our team does not tape doors. We tell the students that they must be in their rooms at such and such a time. They don't have to go to sleep but they must be in their rooms. We do a hall check at the curfew time to make sure.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Yes they do need FIRST and they do need the peer group to pressure them to go do the right thing. And what I'm saying is they I'd prefer to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and see if they can behave. That might be naive but I think it is a better outcome than having a lockdown. Like I said I might be naive and optimistic.

If something were to really happen I'm sure I could ask the desk clerk for door transaction report (generated by the card keys) to run down the culprit.

There are a lot of people here with a lot more experience in this than I have but my fundamental tendency is to ask for a certain level of behavior and if they manage to get themselves in trouble then they will have to face the consequences.

I'm just sitting here thinking about mentor/parent roles. When do we allow someone to 'get themselves into a hole' so the student can have the learning experience. Obviously we don't want to endanger someone, but....

We talk about students running a team and building robots we talk about the students to making decisions, with the mentors helping them make informed decisions. Are these decision just limited to the robot ? or do they extend to how to behave in the hotel ? and everywhere else ?

When I was young I was given a lot of leeway in my decision making, but I had a lot of responsibility also. The times I made what you might call 'not well considered' decisions came with some pretty tough consequences that led to some character building moments.

I'm not recommending anyone test the waters but simply to expect standards of behavior and accountability.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

I haaattteeeee people. not just the people filing th suit/charge whatever. but the kid. Get over yourself. Seriously. i was in 8th grade last year, and we went to Gettysburg. our teachers did this with electrical tape. Firstly, nobody freaked out, guess everyone here is sane. Secondly it doesn't do anything, it's just to keep you from leaving you. aahhhhhh i can't even get all my anger out coherently!!!!

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

While this may deter some from filing a lawsuit against someone, there are just too many lawyers out there and too many people willing to sue over anything now. I'd actually think this would make more sense if the person filing the lawsuit would be required to pay the court costs as a fine, that should make people think twice.

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

Oooh oooh, I want that added to my job description!
Sigh, that would be far too good. Just remember that the Judge is a lawyer too...:(

Re: Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)
 

We have never taped the kids into their rooms at night.......that said.....I know that on band trips they do.

I have never had an issue with this problem. For one thing my kids are always so exhusted by the time we let them go to their rooms all they want to do is sleep. (Granted we have been known to keep them in meetings till after midnight.

If this were to become an issue, I would not let that student travel again.