Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

The question is, do we need to have permission to set up wireless networks at competitions for scouting? We are just asking now because we started to develop our system after regionals.

My next worry is for next year. The robots will be capable of being wirelessly programmed, so how will that effect wireless scouting?

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

That is a good question. I remember reading this year that in Atlanta for the Championship, there were to be no wireless networks set up. Most likely because of the new control system.

At this point in time, I would say no to wireless networks, but only time will tell. My best advice would be to create a plan B scouting system just in case.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

Its simple. Don't use 802.11b/g/n
Use 802.11a and you should be in the clear, as there are no interference problems as it runs on a totally different band.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I would be shocked if FIRST allows any wireless networks next year.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I know FIRST has one, but it's official business only. (uploading results/webcast)

I think you would because FIRST will want to remove interference as much as possible. Then again, ask as soon as Q&A comes up for next year and you may get a different answer.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

If I remember the discussion with the NI representative correctly, some of the demo equipment was running on 802.11a, and other equipment was on 802.11g, at the last Championship. As of April, it wasn't known which implementation was going to be used.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I've tried writing this post twice because I see the reasons to have a wireless network and to not have a wireless network. I know at certain venues you were not allowed to host your own wireless network. Wireless next year will be pretty touchy.

Robots will be wireless (as with any other year it has been), but next year it will be using an 802.11a/b/g/n signal. Probably not n, but it will definitely be one of those four. With any wireless network there will probably be interference (FM radio by my cable modem causes tons of interference that makes my radio useless in its location.) There is so much that is uncertain right now with the control system next year. I'm still wondering how they will keep other teams from accidentally or purposely (bad GP) messing with other team's robots through the wireless programming. At competition, I would almost bet that they would make teams program via ethernet cable and tether, much like they have done for many years.

Since so much is uncertain at this point, no one can clearly say. For now I would say no, wireless computer communication will not be allowed in any way, shape, or form.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I realize that the additional wireless networks may cause interference, but so do all of the wireless networks FIRST can't regulate, and the 2.4 GHz cordless phones, and Bluetooth, and anything else that happens to run at 2.4 GHz.

Personally I don't think that any such restrictions would be practical or even possible to enforce, and if the new control system can't handle some other networks in the same area, then we're going to have some big problems next year, especially with the number of wireless networks growing like they are.

EDIT: I have to think that the best way for FIRST to go is to use 802.11a, which is almost non-existant these days, and let us do whatever we want in the 2.4Ghz area. The only issue would be bandwidth.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

but hey, as an aside, hoepfully they'll allow two-way radios again!

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

In the words of Mr. T, I pity the fool who would have to enforce that rule.

"Excuse me, Mr. Legimate Businessman next to arena. It seems that we are picking up some signals from your Wifi network next door. I'm sorry, but your Wifi might screw with our robots. Please stop doing business these next three days so we can play."

If FIRST genuinely thinks they can outright ban and expect to find no wireless networks at any of the Regional and/or Championship competition venues, they have some serious hubris issues.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

that would be nice it was hard to keep everyone organized just useing cell phones

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I meant team networks, which are also nearly impossible to police if the team doesn't put anything identifying in the network id.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

Not too likely, considering FIRST uses them for communication between volunteers. Someone with a two-way radio could probably wreak a lot of havok with team queuing/event management.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

True, but if someone was going to do that I don't think the rules would make a difference.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

A few notes:

1) No official policy for 2009 has been released. Speculation on said policy is not useful at this time.

2) Planning to violate said unknown policy is not useful and goes well against the spirit of FIRST.

3) If said unknown policy does forbid certain types of networks, and you knowingly ignore the policy, I can and will find you. At that point, I will personally tell your grandmothers what you did.

This isn't a matter of whether or not an unknown policy makes sense. This is a matter of doing the right thing.

As for whether or not the policy will make sense when it is known, have a little faith.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

If all the controls are running on 2.4, I would just get a new 802.11n router that can run on the 5.0Ghz band. That should eliminate interference and create a really large coverage area.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

Based on what I heard from NI, they believe that 802.11 A is an "old" technology and not worth using for the robots ... therefore, all you need to do is use A (5.8 Ghz) and there will be no interference issues and no problem

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

So the general idea here is that it is unlikely that they will allow wireless networks next year. It's a real shame because that's how a lot of teams are probably going to start doing their scouting.

Now, was wireless networks allowed this year?

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I believe they were allowed at regionals, but not the championship

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

It depends on the system FIRST/NI goes with. It has been explained in other threads there are three non-overlapping channels (11 total, but some overlap), channel... 1 for example, could be set aside for team use. I don't see this happening as it is too confusing, if non-interference is essential, but it would work. Then again, if non-interference is essential, you shouldn't be using the 2.4Ghz band.

I hope we go with a 5.0Ghz system (I believe 802.11a does and with some configuration, n does too), with a single FIRST-controlled access point that all the control stations plug into (that means 7 wireless broadcasting devices total), and use a small Wifi-Ethernet bridge to use with the robot, which would look very much like the older transmitters. Lots of bandwidth, less interference then having an access point on each robot and 12 broadcasting nodes, simple, one network to connect to, no confusion. Hopefully. I have no clue how this will all be zero configuration. Each robot connects to a authentication-required access point, always called "FRC" or something, and gets an IPv4 address with DHCP, then discovers the driver controller with a service discovery protocol, driver controller pings back, station light stops blinking. Hm, idk how I feel about using WiFi after all :-/

I am also awaiting the return of Sundial, that would mean reserving a channel if not the entire 2.4Ghz spectrum, for team use. On a side note, I hope the field controller is free software along with the robot controller library (right now only the programming library has been mentioned, and it has only been called open source, of which free software is more or less a subset). Maybe I will start a thread on the field controller exclusively.

So, 900Mhz video systems are looking like a good possibility, but could find another use in FRC besides personnel two-way-radios. Dial up modems anyone? Don't worry, the theoretical speed from a 900Mhs two-way-radio is orders faster then telephone.

You could use Light for medium distance communications: http://ronja.twibright.com/

Whichever band of Wi-Fi FIRST uses (2.4Ghz vs 5Ghz), use the other. If the field controller uses a single access point, that means one channel, so you could use a different channel, 1, 6, or 11 depending on what FIRST is not using. Again, this could get confusing, even using a different band entirely, so not even that may be allowed.

The Short answer: Plan on using good ol' Ethernet, but wait and see. Ethernet attached to a plain old router (even a wireless one with WiFi turned off) saves lots of time and hassle anyways, if three extra cables are not too much work for you.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I'd say start working on other forms of wireless communication. Scout using Morse Code, hand signals, light flashes (LOST anybody?)... Paper cups and string are cheap too...

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

We should create string networks at Nats. Just have miles of string running between the Georgia Dome and the GWCC. :D

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

"Need a query, ask the cup!"
Now that would be fun :D . Now all we need is a sponsor crazy enough to supply us with the few hundred cups and the couples miles of string.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

According to Bill Miller, Director of FRC, at the Mentor Q&A during this year's Championship, they would be policing the air waves with some powerful tracking system that would allow identification of a wireless router or something in a team's pit. I'm not exactly sure of the details, but it sounds like it will be enforced.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

They may be able to control the networks within the competition venue, but there is no way they could restrict networks in the surounding area. I know that at the Milwakuee regional I was able to detect 5 to 15 non-team networks at any time, depending where I was in the venue.

Even if they did somehow manage to eliminate ALL team networks (which will not happen*) and all of the non-first related networks, they would still have issues with other 2.4ghz devices.

As I said before, if the new system can not handle other devices operating in the same band, then, no matter what rules they put in place, the system should not be used. Especially when the band they're using is so heavily occupied.

* Not all teams read the rules thoroughly. Some people will break the rules without even knowing it.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

Yes, as you have said, it would be impossible to restrict all 2.4ghz devices. Therefore, instead of b or g, 802.11a should be used as the primary means of wireless communication for the 2009 FRC Control System.

802.11a runs over the 5.0ghz band. This band is much less congested than the 2.4ghz band.

It has 12 non-overlapping channels (compared to 802.11g's 3). Therefore, come time for championships, each field could have its own channel (or even one per alliance per field), reducing almost all network channel interference

Also, there are very few wireless networks that use 802.11a. Therefore, FIRST would have practically no work to do when it comes to wireless network policing, as just about all teams with networks of their own would be using b or g on the 2.4ghz band.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I'm surprised in the no fate it technology and programming here. This is a guess but they might do a lock out system where once a robot is connected and confirms by some code them it will block out all other possible connection attempts. kinda how when you sync up you blue tooth phone to a computer it give you a pass key for confirmation.

As for pit wireless, come on people suck it up and just use a Ethernet cable for programming because:
1. You have nothing to lose.
2. You stay out of trouble in the long run.
3. Your programming should have been completed during build season and only should require tweaking.
4. What internet service are you going to be broadcasting out.
So in the long run people just bring a cable and stop trying to be lazy, we have gotten this far with daisy chains of serial cables, so why not buy a 2 foot Ethernet cable for the pit and a 30 foot for the practice field which together would cost less than 15 dollars.

So the real question is not that is it allowed but do you really need it and why a debate over a nonexistent rule? I get the impression here that people want to do things just because they are lazy but yet fear it since they don't trust the technology and programming.

This goes back it to the old fashion "what if this, what if that" but you will never know till it happens yet you can always dream.
Please people think before writing and consider all the possibilities and outcomes and do some research in the technology in this field you may be surprised on what you may find.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

It seems like if it uses electricity, it interferes with the 2.4Ghz range (Alright, maybe not that bad).
You are exactly right, if it is any critical reason, they should be using something else.

This makes me wonder how robots will be controlled in the pits, obviously not with WiFi. The upshot of using IP is that the transport layer is irrelevant, be it Ethernet or WiFi (which borrows quite a bit from Ethernet, such as MAC addresses), IP doesn't care. How you connect to the robot will be interesting, there are two Ethernet ports on the robot controller, one it is very strongly hinted will be used for an Ethernet camera. The other then has to do to the communication mechanism, so maybe the Wi-Fi node or access point has a hub or switch inside it. I'll ponder this a little more.

Couldn't they just enclose all the robots in a Faraday cage and not worry? Actually, covering the field would be impractical, but surrounding the team pits, with two equal size foil walls on each side, connected together, that would work (kinda)... Then again, scouting isn't restricted to the pits, all of the scouting I directed was in the stands, except a total of one minute at the scores and results display. Luckily you don't need Wi-Fi for the stands, you are staying in one place. Or at least I didn't.

N also supports 5Ghz according to the standard, but idk if it requires special configuration, or if devices even support the channel, some types of antennas have to be built differently for different frequencies.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I don't disagree 802.11a would be the practical choice based on interference, but there are othe issues with 802.11a.

My big issues with 802.11a are that relativily few computers have 802.11a cards, and 802.11a has limited bandwidth, which could limit possible uses(video streaming maybe).


I think very few people want wireless programming in the pits. The concern I have is that if this type of rule were enforced it would prevent many of the scouting and collaberation systems teams have delevloped from being used.

And your other point, "why a debate over a nonexistent rule?". Its summer, we're not building robots, and we're geeks. What else are we supposed to do?:)

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

Sounds expensive, but anyway...

Yes, N can also be configured to run on the 5ghz band. However, as time goes on, more and more devices will likely start using 802.11n, whereas 802.11a is probably not prone to nearly as much expansion (and interference)

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

They still use the same band. 802.11a will interfere with 802.11n, and I don't think n is even reverse compatible, so it could mean dropped packets at worst.
Oh, and 5Ghz doesn't go as far as 2.4Ghz, which is a good thing in our case. We don't need the long range, and don't want it to go through walls.
802.11n is being published December 2009, just in time for the 2010 season. We would be using draft versions until then. Luckily upgrading should just be a firmware upgrade, I don't think there are any more hardware level changes.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

That would make sense because of how secure and reliable it would be.

I agree that programmers should stick to ethernet cables to program in the pits because if everyone starts to wirelessly program, then you'll start interfering with everyone else's programs.

So I agree with #1 and #2.
#3-Issues always come up as you start running your robot in competitions. You might want to adjust an angle here or there because the field isn't the same, you might want to give the robot more or less sensitivity, fine tune the hybrid, etc. Either way, the point is that even if your program is complete, you will still want to make it better.
#4-You have a point on the programming and robot side. But the main issue at hand here is the scouting systems. We are all getting tired of using binders full of paper to do our scouting. So our solution is to make them computerized. Some have come up with solutions to do this without going wirelessly, but the easiest way we are all finding is to go wirelessly. That's why we are wanting to have networks.

Also, the intention is not to broadcast the internet. If they want that, then they can wait to get to the hotel, or find a hot spot. The only thing we would broadcast is a server for our scouting systems to communicate with (or for a website if that's how the system works)

It may be a nonexistent rule now, but the Scouts have a motto- Be Prepared. We debate this now so when it does happen, we have ideas and solutions to work with.

You're an engineer, so you should know well about this. People always advance technology to make life more convenient, easier, and faster. Programmers want to be able to program wirelessly for the same reasons.

To give you a better idea of why this is a good wish, I'll tell you about our programmers from this year.
On our practice field, we have built a wall, a scale wall from the 2007 game. We used it again this year, and will use it again next year because it has a spot for a computer or two and the control boards. We also put up tables so the programmers cane work with the sensors up close. So, when they want to program, they have to run around the entire setup to plug it in and unplug it. I was helping them out for a day or two and watched how they threw the cable over the top of the wall, then ran around it just to plug it in. Overall, it took them about 5 minutes to download their program because they had to run around all the time to program. The wireless capability in programming will end up saving them tons of time next year and make them more efficient.

And that bring us back to the BSA motto-Be Prepared. Look at everything that can go wrong and everything that can go right. You are right about you will never know until it happens, but you can always prepare for when it happens.

You can always dream, but don't forget, most things start with a dream.

I agree with think before posting, it's something that everyone needs to do.

I agree with the last part of your post. This thread is to figure out ways to keep wireless networks and/or methods of wirelessly scouting at competitions legally. Your request is another way we need to look at it.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

I agree with cooker52.

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

One other thing that will affect this...

I've pointed this out before, but we don't know the details of the system--especially which band/type--and we don't know next year's rules. Until we know those, it's great to talk about things like blocking outside networks and other scouting methods. But we won't know for sure until 1) the game rules are released in late December (for stuff like arena, competition in general, etc.)/early January and 2) somebody asks in Q&A to make sure if the manual is unclear.

Go ahead and discuss, but expect any ideas to change suddenly around the new year (either one!).

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

Agreed, it's all part of being prepared.

Out of curiosity, and finding other solutions, what are other ways to make wireless networks on computers (besides blue tooth)?

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

Bluetooth uses 2.4Ghz, so that is another solution that is not allowed if we end up using 802.11b/g. >:-(

While we could use 802.11n, if the field uses b/g, it wouldn't work out for too many people because most wireless devices only work with 2.4Ghz. The upshot of my system is it is a very simple, intuitive UI, easy to use on portable devices, which won't happen if we go to 2.4Ghz with any physical link layer (CAT5 twisted pair, 2.4Ghz, etc), regardless of the data link layer (Ethernet, 802.11, Bluetooth, etc).

Re: Wireless Networks at Competitions
 

Has anyone created a program that can work with a cell phone in general, or with texting (spell check doesn't like that word for some reason)? They may prevent wireless computer networks, but they can't stop us from using our cell phones.