How do you scout?
 

Hey,
2614 was a rookie team this year so we didn't do to mcuh scouting, but we plan to next year. how do you scout? Is it all about formulas and excel or just which robots look the best? How do the questionaires that everyone asks the other teams on thurs. get used? Also anyone on a smaller team how do you manage scouting with not as many people? Any advice/ hints would be great.

Re: How do you scout?
 

Actually if you just scour the numerous threads populating the Scouting section you may find plenty of the answer you seek from many teams over the years. Lot's of good info to be had.
Good hunting!

Re: How do you scout?
 

Last year our scouting was really simple:

What auton did
Number of laps
Number of hurdles
Balls placed/ knocked off at end
Penalties
Any problems (i.e. did they break)
Comments (did they play defense much)

This is basically answering how does their robot compare to others and how can they compliment our robot.

We had everyone fill out the paper forms and then had someone enter that info into a database that could be easily checked.

Sorry, I'm not sure what our pit questionare was.

Re: How do you scout?
 

Find a veteran team in your area and scout with them. Just ask, most veterans would be glad to show you the ropes.

I can't tell you how much we learned by doing that.

Re: How do you scout?
 

we had a sheet that included a robot's performance in a round. usually we recieved 3-4 sheets a robot. also a major role in our decision was seeing how a robot fit with our gameplan.

Re: How do you scout?
 

Yep. They show you how they do it, both teams get data and sort.

I'm a fan of Excel sheets for this, because you can print one version and keep the rest for data analysis. Don't like the analysis results because they don't match what you're seeing? Change one master number and get a different sort.

Re: How do you scout?
 

The Thursday questionnaires are primarily used for the first couple matches before actual scouting data has been collected (combined with some generic notes on performance from practice day, which are taken with a grain of salt). They are also useful for seeing what teams still have work to be done (shows both that they won't be at 100% and that they have potential to improve).
Match data is what's incredibly useful for both match planning, and more importantly, creating pick lists for the elimination rounds (which should be done even if you aren't likely to be in the top 8). Take data on all game aspects, such as all scoring, penalties, etc.
Try to keep match notes as objective as possible, to provide consistent valid data regardless of note taker. Some subjective data should be taken (such as if the team appeared controlled, or were they struggling around the field), but keep it minimal.

Re: How do you scout?
 

To OP:
Dont forget that selection strategies are at the very least just as important as scouting. Selecting a great alliance and limiting the strength of an opposing alliance will serve the same purpose.

I have also found that observing matches of teams is one of the best ways of scouting.
Much attention is paid on stats, but in a 3 on 3 game, it gets skewed quite a bit sometimes. At championships in '08, a lot of good teams through strategy played the defensive role not scoring as many offensive points as they were capable of doing.

Re: How do you scout?
 

which is why one of our scouting data points is "defensive maneuvers".

Re: How do you scout?
 

Watch as many matches as possible! You will easily be able to rank the top 24.

Re: How do you scout?
 

It is important that you get data you can rely on.

Make sure the scouts are well-trained, know what they are doing, and know what they are looking for.

If you don't like the idea of putting info into an excel spreadsheet, we made a spreadsheet on paper that covered all matches for every team and then organized them in a three-ring binder.

One of the things we look at is whether a team was defended by another team and what team that was. If a team scores well in all of their matches except one where they were defended, then that speaks a lot about the team that was defending.

Use data from the practice matches only to loosely determine strategy on Friday. Use Friday data for selecting partners and use Saturday to solidify those selections.

Re: How do you scout?
 

This extremely important. This year we had people who really didn't want to do the scouting, and we got very unreliable inconsistent data.

Re: How do you scout?
 

In addition to the valuable data, make sure all your students pay attention to special driver's characteristics and how they cooperate with their qual. alliance partners. Trust me, that is a huge part of selection.

If there are any teams in your area attending an off season and actually scout, ask them if you can join in and learn how they function, its better to be prepared before next season's competitions.

Re: How do you scout?
 

No matter what you system you derive, I think there's a balance you need to strike between the Excel spreadsheets and the paper notes. The Excel sheets make quick work of all the calculations, but is slow to navigate. The paper version is just the opposite.

Team Overdrive (FTC #74) had the most amazing scouting I've seen first hand. They had a sheet for every team out there with a pasted on picture of the robot. They manually recorded the happenings of each match (see other's comments for typical criteria) on each team's sheet. They then tallied the raw data in Excel and made printed their ranking sheet for their team representative to assist in alliance selection.

What they did there is pretty typical, but what set the scouting apart was they kept the paper versions filed in an portable accordion file that their captain kept ready at the field. As we progressed through the elimination rounds, we simply pulled the paper of the teams we were about to play and had all of the information at our finger tips - including autonomous routes. We were then able to strategize on the spot and did well as a result.

I was impressed so much, that I hope to emulate their system with my team this upcoming year. :)

Re: How do you scout?
 

When you scout depending on the situation, you should have a few things in mind: How do i get the information i need that it's a quick process of checking or circling the answer, do i really need this data or not, Because in a match there is only 2:30 for you to get the answers on that team so you need to be processed. My team for scouting this year used a excel database which we input the data from every team from papers and at the end of the day discussed what teams we need to focus on the next day.

Re: How do you scout?
 

We have generally done a web based system so that we can do multiple inputs while simultaneously having the field team access the data. It really helps when we can put up a wi-fi network (yeah, yeah, 2009) so that we don't hae to run between the stands and the pit. It also allows us to share the data easily with anyone interested.

You can check it out at http://gearheadcrossing.org/2008/

Re: How do you scout?
 

How do I scout?

...carefully ;)

I finally compiled and ran a Wii homebrew program (check out the scene), and several nifty graphics libraries have been released recently. If all goes well, we'll have some wifi within the next half year (pleeeease!), so I can combine the DS scouting with an automatically updating Wii database program that displays in the pits ;) Now, to me at least, that would be epic!

Re: How do you scout?
 

In addition to our normal scouting (posted earlier in this thread) this year we used overhead projector transparencies with the field, overpass, and starting areas printed on them and drew on the transparencies where the robot went in hybrid. We then sorted the sheets by team allowing us to see if a team had more than one auton/hybrid strategy and approximately where they went and what they did on the field.

Re: How do you scout?
 

1 sheet for each team with enough data for 8 matches.

Find 7 people to scout (you might have to be one of them).

6 of them will be scouters and 1 will be a manager (could be you).

Each match, the manager sorts through the 50-some-odd sheets and finds the 6 that are competing (not as hard as it sounds), and hands them out to the 6 scouters. It's easiest to designate 3 as RED scouters and 3 as BLUE scouters for the sake of being able to find your robot.

Then after the match, the sheets are exchanged and put back into order.

On Friday night, we either Black List or Green List robots depending on their performances. Black list means that you are done with the robot and they will not be considered for the final list (barring a miracle). Green list means they will continue to be scouted on Saturday. Hopefully you will end up with 30-ish green robots. Sort these green robots into order from best to worst. You may end up with more than one catagory (I.E.: Hurdlers and Speed, Ramp and Ringers, etc).

On Saturday, we scout just like normal and about an hour before the the final match starts, the scouting leader (you) and MAYBE 1 or 2 others that have been scouting with you make final revisions to the list created the previous night.

We also make a list of teams that we would decline if we are in picking position.

I kind of adopted this tactic from 269. I modified it slightly for use with 171 and so far, it's worked wonderfully. We are contemplating using a PDA-based scouting system but with the new control system for next year, it may need to be a wired system.

The system would replace the finding, distribution, and exchanging of scouting sheets and instead, leave that to the scouter.

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As for creation of the scouting sheet, I try to keep things as simple as possible for the sake of my scouters. If certain fields are unimportant, not considered in the end, or are covering the same thing as other fields, then the sheet needs to be revised.

For instance, some scouting sheets I have used include fields that rate driver skill, robot attributes (speed, agility, etc). But I have found that in the end, if I work with the sheer numbers they put up (if they hurdle 6 times, is driver skill relevant?), I can get a better list. I also make sure to include a comment section if the scouter feels the need to take notes, or notify me of something regarding the robot.

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It is also important for the person running scouting operations to keep the coach and drivers of their team informed so they can come up with a viable strategy. If I'm not scouting, then I try to run down to the pits with the sheets for the teams in our match. If I am scouting or managing, then I give the information via cell phone.

Re: How do you scout?
 

That's pretty much a perfect summary of how we scout as well. One tip to help you out: have post-its or tabs to sort team numbers.

Re: How do you scout?
 

This is good advice. You want the facts- how many hurdles, how many laps, what it does in hybrid, etc., but you also want other details about it, things you can't just capture in the numbers.

When I was talking to our scouters about what I wanted to know about other robots as a coach, I made up this example of a "scouting report" on a team that could have been written up quickly, but gave good data:

Other things that are good to include on the scouting sheet, no matter the year:
- a picture of the robot, so you can bring an image to mind when you talk about it
- how many years of experience the team has
- how many years of experience the drivers have
- how many hours of experience the drivers have
- if any, how many regionals has the team been to this season? results?

All of these things can be important, but some things end up outweighing others. Think about how a robot would interact with your team, if they would be partners, how you can strategize against them if they will be on the opposing alliance, etc.

To answer some of your other questions:

- On Thursday, our team only does "pit scouting", which consists of taking pictures of each robot and asking each team questions about their robot (based on the above stuff). It's usually pretty accurate if you bear in mind that the numbers are probably inflated (they're used to practicing by themselves, not playing under match conditions with 6 robots on the field). You can use this to get a head start for Friday matches, and compile it with the data you collect during qualifications.
- On Friday/Saturday during matches, our team uses a system of 7 scouters; one for each robot and one lead scouter to compile all the data. In the past, when we've had fewer scouters, we've tried it with one person per alliance, but that gets tricky and you get less data. You can have people swap out if you want.

Re: How do you scout?
 

So pretty much, my name is Anthony Nguyen and i was the head scout for skunkworks team 1983. This past season was my first year with the team and my first year scouting. If you like I could send you our scouting plan/manual for last years game. The items that it includes are: scouting sheets, robot directory, how to compose a scouting notebook, excel spreadsheets, graph(s), pit scouting sheets, blahblahblahblah and the list goes on.

But all in all it is a very good start for any team who wants to scouting. But i have to warn you, it is not fully edited, so there is going to be a LOT of grammar errors as well as redundancy.

If you are interested, send me a message back with your email address.

Anthony

Re: How do you scout?
 

Since our team is pretty small and most people stayed at the Pit, I did almost all of the scouting for our team. Before each regional I wrote up scouting sheets that were basically one continuous table, with one copy as the Master that stayed at the Pit, and a few other copies that floated with the scout(s).

Each row was one robot and each column information on said robots. Each row was a different width depending on my speculation of what teams would be scout-worthy, based on past experience: say, 254 would get more space than a rookie. The first column would be team number and name, and then the name our team uses, say Team 192, GRT, we would refer to as Gunn instead, or Team 100 Woodside/Carlmont rather than the Wildhats. The second and third columns were Game Play, with checkboxes for (2nd Column) Auton, Laps and Control, and (3rd Column) Hurdle, Place and Remove. Each category had space after it for notes. The last column was Reliability, and that we left blank, for notes. I printed these out and let pencil and paper work their magic. Each scout I could gather would mark down and note robots and then bring their sheets back to the Master sheet, and that way the Master was always available. Feel free to PM me if you want the actual sheet. (It's a little scary; Silicon Valley and Davis were four months ago but I can put this down directly from memory...)

We never did set up an analysis system, but before each of our matches, I would mentally analyze each robot that we were working with or against and gather the other two robots on our alliance and discuss strategy with all three drive teams.

Pit Scouting was crucial here. I drew each robot in its team number and name space, and in this way was able to keep track of each robot on the field. Some teams take photographs as a parent did on our team, but I found the drawings easier to edit in case a team dramatically changes their robot. I also asked questions all three days, and while the numbers are a usually little inflated, most rapidly deflate when compared to match scores for individual robots.

Re: How do you scout?
 

Another suggestion I just thought of for if your team is so small that you can't afford to devote more than, say 2 or 3 people to scouting:

On Thursday, have your scouters do pit scouting. Have them watch matches on Friday and Saturday to contribute to the pit scouting, but set up a partnership with a larger team that has an established system. A lot of teams are happy to share their data, so you can get all the number facts from them that you might not have quite enough people to gather, but you can supplement that with qualitative and more subjective data that you can use for analysis.

Re: How do you scout?
 

I've seen 842 have a laptop with their (fantastic) scouting data on it available in their pit for viewing....

Re: How do you scout?
 

We did this at the Wisconsin Regional. We only 4 or 5 kids to scout so we offered to team up with team 2194. They were more than willing and I think we both enjoyed the lightened workload.

Re: How do you scout?
 

Our scouting team did the best they've ever done this year. They had paper sheets for each match with all the pertinent information - robot number, auton lines, pens, regular lines, hurdles, herds, even a map that showed the robot's course in autonomous.

Then they had a pre-made spreadsheet that they entered the data into and could sort with drop-down sort boxes. Finally, they had a couple folks going around taking pictures of all the robots. We viewed those pictures as we discussed each robot.

At MARC where we didn't have the resources to do a full scouting, we had 3 people watching what happened and feeding the info real-time to a person entering the data on the computer. That way we had it immediately sorted when team selections came right after the last match.

On thing that was helpful to me at MARC was that the formulas were set up to calculate average score in auton and normal modes over the course of the competition. So we were able to look at all-around good robots, and were able to see that some robots got by on the strength of their auton, and others the strength of their hurdling.

Re: How do you scout?
 

We did something very similar at MARC as well.

Our scouting team had 6 people scouting, one for each robot on the field.

There was one scouting sheet per team, that had all of their matches listed.

After a few matches the scouting sheets were passed to a person entering the data through out the day, then back to the scouters.

The excel sheet would create printable Match Overview sheets that were delivered to drive team before each match. Which included real time statistics (average, Min, Max, and Rank) for Team Contribution, Hybrid Lane Markers, Hurdles, and Laps. The Match Overview sheet would also insert the team name and picture of the robot. As well as the estimated scores for the red and blue alliance.

Our scouters did an amazing job of scouting and they system worked very well. Although it had one fatal flaw, since each sheet was based on individual teams and not matches, the sheets had to be passed to the data entry person then back to the scouters. Ultimately our scouting system caused us to miss a potential 1st round pick (HOT Team 67). At MARC HOT did not do that well in the first few matches (which we had entered) but after match 19 their performance on the field kept increasing and was missed.

So for our next competition (Kettering Kickoff) we will have 6 sheets (automatically generated from the match schedule) one for each robot position (Red 1,2,3 and Blue 1,2,3), with 4 matches on each page. Once the all 4 matches have been played the sheet moves to the data entry person and then gets filed away.

If any one cares to see it in action at Kettering Kickoff, feel free to swing by our pits.

-Oris-
EngiNERDs - Team 2337

Re: How do you scout?
 

I have noticed that most of you have said that you use 6 people per match, one per robot on the field. We have done it a bit differently. Usually, we assign a number of teams to each person that isnt in the pits, whether they are parents, students, siblings, etc.

The advantage of this approach is that you get to know the teams that you are watching. You are able to note their progress through the qualifying rounds, whether they are better or worse at the beginning and end. That is something that is not as easy when you are just gathering stats. This approach also allows scouts to not have to watch every round, and are able to get up and take a break.

A HUGE disadvantage of this system is that you can easily be forced to watch 2 teams in 1 match. This is fixed by asking someone who doesn't have a robot to watch that match to help. I am working on a way to sort the teams so that this can be minimized, but it is also difficult if your scouts aren't all there at the beginning of the day.

Another problem ive noticed is that scouting is seen as an undesirable job, which is a far nicer way to say what was said to me about it by one of our other alumni. Be sure to emphasize the importance of scouting and strategy to your scouts, otherwise they will see it as a chore and not do a good job.

Re: How do you scout?
 

good point. First of all, we also include 2 or 3 people overseeing the entire field. These certain people are highly skilled at identifying and interpreting a robot's performance, driver skills, and just about everything you can imagine. I highly suggest that teams do this. Its something insanely useful. PM me if u have more questions about it.

Second, basically what riles up our frosh scouters is the usual "Scouting wins us regionals" talk. And swear to god it has won us regional even with a mediocre bot.

Re: How do you scout?
 

When our programmer was working on developing scouting software in the off season, we tried it out using videos of matches. Turns out that a quick, effective way of scouting could be to videotape all the matches (showing the full field), and then just play the tape back at twice speed and have a few people scout each "active" robot, and perhaps play some matches over again as needed to catch those robots that didn't get properly watched the first time. It's pretty easy to see what's going on even at 4 times speed or faster, once you get the hang of it.

Re: How do you scout?
 

What we did this year was have 6 members watch (one per robot) on Friday and Saturday. On Thursday we had the scouting team do pit scouting we would have taken pictures of all the bots but couldn’t get a Polaroid camera in time. I would say how this worked but the scoters lost the binders in the stands on Friday so all we had was the pit scouting sheets:ahh: . They apparently lost interest when they found out at the end of Friday that we were ranked in the mid 20s and thus didn’t look for them because they thought we wouldn’t be selecting but when (on Saturday) we made a comeback and that we were selecting well they freaked out. Moral of the story handcuff the scoters to their papers and make sure only certain people have the key. :rolleyes: