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-   -   New FIRST competition structure in Michigan (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68653)

waialua359 08-03-2008 07:37 AM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynette (Post 759898)
Best of luck FIRST Michigan with your pilot program!

I for one am excited that FIRST is stepping out of their comfort zone to try something different. Will the next year be problem free? Probably not. Should that stop FIRST from trying at all? I hope not, because that is the same determination that is needed to survive in today's world, the same persistence that FIRST instills in the students it inspires, the willingness to take a risk and try something that many say can't or shouldn't be done.

I'm also excited that there will be even more opportunities to volunteer at FIRST events. That is one of our team's mentors goals this year - to go to other areas and volunteer - and this initiative will give us so many more choices and chances.

I guess I never knew that FIRST was about the regional events being all polished and pretty. I thought it was about the team building, robot designing, robot building, solving problems, getting the future excited about science and technology and engineering. And yes, the regional competitions are key to building that enthusiasm, but I've been to regionals in several venues and know that the enthusiasm and excitement comes from much more that curtains and audio-visual equipment.

See! It is about the teams, not the venues! Until we hear where the district competitions are going to be, why should we expect that they are going to feel any less like a regional?

And audiences in awe! Is it better to have a packed gymnasium or a massive but sparsely filled stadium? Especially stadiums where you are not allowed to hang those banners where you have proudly printed your sponsor's names?

And based on the attendance of the Hawaii regional, that came out to $10-15 a person. That is not too extravagant, nor is that in indicator of quality of a regional over a district event. Some regionals offer pizza and games for their social, some host them in interesting places, and some don't have one at all. Most charge extra, so while I'm glad that Hawaii's social was awesome, it neither adds to nor subtracts from the events in Michigan.

You all make the experience fabulous! And honestly I have to say that I’ve had fabulous experiences at tiny off-seasons, big off-seasons, pre-ship rallies, small regionals and big regionals and at the championship event. I really hope that you all aren't sacrificing all of your time, money, and personal life just to go to a super-de-duper regional event. Because FIRST is way more than that. And I’m hoping that this pilot program can bring that FIRST experience to many more students and schools in Michigan.
I was speaking in a general manner. I do hope the Michigan events with its cost effective plan delivers the same punch as everyone will hope and work towards. If it does, that spells some optimistic hope for other regionals to look at their own costs and seeing where they can be more efficient.
Again, that lustre, however it is defined, should not be lost.

Daniel_LaFleur 08-03-2008 10:47 AM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 759934)
Art, I'm not trying to make this personal with you or anyone else. But I think that what several people are missing in this conversation is that something had to change, or teams would not be able to enter FRC, no matter how many resources they had. FRC is reaching capacity in Michigan. In order to allow additional teams to join in the near future, something had to change. Sure new teams could do VEX*. But then the same arguments come back - "It's not the same thing." "It's not as exciting." "Those little robots on a 12-foot arena in a gym aren't as inspiring as the big bots in an arena."
I think you are missing Art's point, that maybe FRC is not the correct vehicle for all schools.

Personally, I hope this pilot works out well for all in Michigan, but this may be a case of trying to do too much with FRC rather than working to create a tiered system and fitting the school into what they can afford/accomplish/support.

Koko Ed 08-03-2008 11:23 AM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilstogi11 (Post 759896)
i really wanted to go to a Michigan regional this year.:mad: but more :(
This makes me want to go see a Michigan event (are they still considered regionals ?) even more just to see what the new format looks like.

IndySam 08-03-2008 11:40 AM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
One thing about volunteering.

I have a limited amount of vacation time that I can spend on FIRST (for some reason my wife expects me to spend some with her.)

Eliminating the Thursday will give me an extra day to volunteer at another event. I'm pretty excited about that.

Koko Ed 08-03-2008 12:01 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 759944)
One thing about volunteering.

I have a limited amount of vacation time that I can spend on FIRST (for some reason my wife expects me to spend some with her.)

Eliminating the Thursday will give me an extra day to volunteer at another event. I'm pretty excited about that.
All my vacation time is basically used to volunteer at FIRST events.
< has no life.

GaryVoshol 08-03-2008 02:20 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 759939)
I think you are missing Art's point, that maybe FRC is not the correct vehicle for all schools.
No, I'm not missing that point. I'm looking beyond that point. What do we do when no schools, no matter what their resources, can join FRC because there is no place for them to compete?

Quote:
Personally, I hope this pilot works out well for all in Michigan, but this may be a case of trying to do too much with FRC rather than working to create a tiered system and fitting the school into what they can afford/accomplish/support.
Thus my disagreement with "certain states like Michigan" which do not have FTC. But that still doesn't address the concern of how to allow FRC for schools that can afford it.

maltz1881 08-03-2008 02:43 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
FIRST doesn't want VEX or Tech in Michigan. Plain and simple. They have told us this. VEX or Tech is more for states like N. Dakota, Kansas, etc. We tried to get an "offical" VEX Tourney here. They told us no. We did hold a tourney anyways but it wasn't with the blessings from FIRST. I will say the 1 1st year it was held they allowed a few teams to go to the championship. They won't allow that anymore though.

By the way I take great offense to calling the Kettering Rookie Event amateurish. You just insulted about 1000 people including the teams that attended. BTW I have 2 things to say about your comment. 1 of those rookies took 3rd place at the Championship. 2. Paul Godonus (?) was there (in case you didn't recognize him in the picture) along with Fracois Castaing and other top officals who attended TOTALLY disagreed with you. They told all of us during a luncheon that he was shocked by how well it ran. He also told us that we gave 95% of everything that a regular regional gives for 1/15 of the cost.

Please don't put words into my mouth by saying we "borrowed a used amp from an uncle's garage". We used top notch material. Kettering has professional video cameras etc.. I really don't understand such negativity. It is a good thing to step out of your comfort zone and see the rest of the world. :D

ParkerF 08-03-2008 04:52 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maltz1881 (Post 759963)
It is a good thing to step out of your comfort zone and see the rest of the world. :D
Isn't that exactly what this is preventing though? I'd never been to St. Louis, New Orleans, or Atlanta until this past year when I joined FRC. I want to be able to go to places out of state. I want to see my country and meet people from all different regions who are interested in the same thing as I. Many of my newest friends are from Michigan, and they want to be able to see their out of state friends again at regionals, but this is preventing that. I've been nearly every where in my state, and I'm sure that's a common thing for many FRC students in their own states. I want to go see the places and people I haven't ever been around before. I've said it before...that's just what makes FRC so unique.

I know there are a lot of I's in this post, but I have many friends in Michigan, as I've said, who are very upset with having to do this.

[My last post here.]

Zflash 08-03-2008 06:21 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
$5000 intial fee (KOP and 2 district competitions)
$4000 State Championship
$4000 Out of state competition
$5000 FIRST Championship


This payment structure may suggest that the entry fee for all teams may have gone down $1,000. Is this true or is it just wishfull thinking for the rest of us. Also I have my own thoughts on why they are allowing 18 or so teams to advance to the world championships from the MI State championships however I was wondering what others thought of this?

GaryVoshol 08-03-2008 08:13 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
The 18 teams advancing to the Championship reflects the 18 teams that previously advanced from Great Lakes, West Michigan and Detroit Regionals. Granted, two teams from Indiana qualified from West Michigan this year. But teams from Michigan qualified from other regionals, which will be still be possible but less likely in the future.

joeweber 08-03-2008 08:44 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by francistexas (Post 759974)
Isn't that exactly what this is preventing though? I'd never been to St. Louis, New Orleans, or Atlanta until this past year when I joined FRC. I want to be able to go to places out of state. I want to see my country and meet people from all different regions who are interested in the same thing as I. Many of my newest friends are from Michigan, and they want to be able to see their out of state friends again at regionals, but this is preventing that. I've been nearly every where in my state, and I'm sure that's a common thing for many FRC students in their own states. I want to go see the places and people I haven't ever been around before. I've said it before...that's just what makes FRC so unique.

[My last post here.]
It is wonderful that you were part of a team that could travel to many states and compete in multiple events. Unfortunately there are many teams that have never traveled or been to more than one event. The past four years we have only been to Great Lakes Regional and as soon as we get our robot working perfectly the event and our season is over. We now will finally have a chance to compete more than once. I will take the loose of Thursday to get a chance at a second event any time. We will now know ahead of time to make sure our robot is working better when we bag it up after build. If you have a committed team there is no reason not to complete your robot build on time.

Cory 08-03-2008 09:13 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeweber (Post 759992)
I will take the loose of Thursday to get a chance at a second event any time. We will now know ahead of time to make sure our robot is working better when we bag it up after build. If you have a committed team there is no reason not to complete your robot build on time.
254 and 968 would beg to differ, as would many other excellent teams.

You can't just choose to make sure the robot will be working better than normal. Not once has our team ever slacked off because we knew we would have Thursday to finish the bot. Every year for the last 3 years we have slept in our lab from Thursday night to Tuesday morning, in an effort to finish our robot. There was nothing in any of those years we could have done to be more prepared for Thursday of the event.

Stuff happens, and Thursday is invaluable for many teams. Eliminating Thursday won't hurt teams like 254, because we would be able to accomplish more in our own shop than at the event, but it will hurt the teams that need the help the most-those that show up, with all kinds of work to do, with a 30 lb overweight robot that isn't totally put together.

With the current setup, other teams at the event will take notice of said team struggling, and help them to be ready come Friday morning.

Now those teams will be forced to do it all themselves in 8 hours, instead of 12, with no other teams around for help.

joeweber 08-03-2008 09:36 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
Don’t get me wrong, I hate to loose Thursday too but if it’s a choice between having Thursday or having two events I will take the two events and make the adjustment during build weather we like it or not. If all the other teams are in the same boat than the difficulty will be equal. I do not believe for one minute that any team slacks off during build but I do believe in the ability of the teams to adjust. If we were given four weeks to build we would find a way.

Josh Murphy 08-03-2008 10:02 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
The ONLY DOWNSIDE I see to losing thursday is getting all of the inspections done before playtime. The last 5 years and maybe beyond( Iwasn't around yet) our machines have been put in the crate, competition ready and are ready to roll on thursday morning. I would pick the 8 hours at school in our machine shop over 12 hours in a smoking hot gym/arena anyways. I look at cutting the thursdays as a cost savings. Just remember that this is just an EXPERIMENT it won't be perfect, but anything that you do for the first time in most cases isn't perfect anyways. Everything can be improved upon, nothing is perfect. Everyone has thier own ways to do things and Michigan is just trying to improve FIRST in our own way. If the experiment doesn't work then everything will most likely go back to normal in 2010. And for the economy in Michigan: it sucks, sponsors are hard to come by these days here in Michigan. The banners at the top of this page are only $250.00 and most of the students struggle to find anyone interested and it's not about selling the program because most of them would have me convinced, even if I was not involved with FIRST. I was a student also when we first started the ads and it was tough finding a taker for only $250.00 and I can sell the program pretty well to most people. If the economy was rolling and doing pretty well and it wasn't so costly to do FIRST this probably would have never came up. I loved things the way they were and it will still take some convincing for me to be sold on the new direction, but I am willing to step back and give it a chance and everyone else should do the same instead of being critics.

waialua359 08-03-2008 11:59 PM
Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 
One thing to consider is not only about being able to complete your robot on time, its also about putting it together after you unpack your crate.
Teams who travel by ground have the luxury of carrying a greater no. of tools and accessories they need to bring to an event. Teams often roll their carts into the pit, whereas other teams are forced to put as much in their crate in order to alleviate what they have to carry on an airplane. This has caused us this season to take our arm apart. As much as it was a hastle this past season, we had no other choice. Our morning practice rounds were all shot because of it all of our events.


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