Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Let me see if I can help with the 1:whatever numbers. At a traditional regional there are 6 slots that qualify for the Championship (3 winners, 1 Chairmans, 1 Engineering Inspriation?, and the Rookie Allstar). This means that at a 30 team regional you have a 1:5 (although rookies are the only ones able to get the Rookie slot). At a 60 team regional you have a 1:10. Even if you go 2 60 team regionals, your chances would be 1:10 + 1:10 = 1:5. In Michigan There will be 18 slots for 105-120 teams, or slightly less than 1:5. These slots are for the 6 slots x the 3 previous regionals. In order to qualify for the Championship in MI, you either need to go through the State championship (paying essentially the same price as 2 traditional events), or do your district and then go pay and win at an out-of state event.

For 2009, I would be willing to bet that 18 teams from Michigan will earn a slot, and another 20 or so will buy open slots for the Championship. Most of the Michigan teams that go to the Championship already do 2-3 events. The extra time on field is not a big benefit them (but it is a benefit). The extra time on field is a big benefit to the teams that usually only do 1 regional, then pack up and maybe get to do an off-season, maybe they decide the $6k, 6 weeks of tortue for 20 minutes of competition isn't worth it. In this system they should at a minimum have an opportunity for 60minutes of competition.

As Gary said: remember folks it is only a PILOT. Regardless of the outcome it will be an excellent learning experience to help figure out whether certain theoretical "improvements" are are worth making a permanent change.

If it goes bad only a small subset of FIRST has a bad experience, and everyone goes back to the regular system.
If it goes good, only a small subset gets and advantage for one year, but everyone will have learned important lessons for the future, and may see benefits if the overall structure changes for the positive.
If it is somewhere in between, everyone will have learned important lessons for the future.
Why only 1 state: In any Pilot you need a big enough effort to make sure that you have a realistic test model, but you need a small enough effort not to accidentally take down the whole thing.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I guess my point did not come out correctly let me try again. The three regionals that were previously in Michigan that had 15 combined awards were open to all teams in attendance. Now those 15 awards are only for MI teams.

"your chances would be 1:10 + 1:10 = 1:5. In Michigan There will be 18 slots for 105-120 teams, or slightly less than 1:5."

This statement is only true if MI teams stay in MI and do not compete in other regional events. Which I am sure will not be the case.

By the way I have no problem with MI teams GO B.O.B.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I appreciate this concern. This would be in line with the point that Steve W was making.

If a team wants to qualify in state they will need to do well at 1 or both districts and then do well at State. With 3 weekends taken up, I have a hard time believing that many teams that would not qualify through those means would then also head out of State to take one of those slots. (not impossible, but not probable in my opinion).

There are 2 more probable scenarios:
#1 likely scenario would be an outskirts MI team doing 1 district and the paying to do a second regional. Since the district alone won't qualify them for the Championship, then their odds would be back to the 1:5-1:10 of attending a regional (30 - 60 teams).

#2 likely scenario would be a team does the 2 districts, qualifies for State, does the State Championship, but does not qualify for the Championship. This team has the money for another event and decides to buy one of the open Championship slots. I know that if I had the money to do 3-4 events I would buy a Championship slot rather than doing an additional regional.

I can't speak for all teams, but those seem to be the logical choices. As long as there are plenty of available slots to "purchase" for the Championship, I don't think teams will try for 5 events in a single season. Last season there were several teams that did 3 events (2 reg. 1 champ), and few that did 4 (3 reg. 1 champ.). I don't think I have ever heard of a team doing 5 (4 reg. and 1 champ.). While technically not impossible, it would be very tough.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

If I were a MI team and we have our teams usual budget of 10k for two entry fees, I would register for two district events and The Championship and not go to the state championship.

In fact I wish I had that option. Two events and The Championship for 10k would be a lot more bang for my buck than what I get for 10k as a non-Michigan team.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I have read most of this thread, but skimmed a lot too. I have had many conversations with some of you on this subject. I told myself I wasn't going to post, but I just can't help it.

I see a lot of you are complaining that it is not fair. Well, I have a proposal that may satisfy you. If it doesn't satisfy you, then it will at least shut you up. Please do not get me wrong, those of you giving constructive criticism are doing what most people who care about FIRST do, but the rest of you simply complaining that it is not fair? C'mon, let the thing play out one year and see if it goes somewhere.

Anyway, here is my proposal and I will propose it in more detail to the powers that be:

1. Any non-Michigan team that wants to participate in this pilot can do so if they declare that they are a Michigan team for 2009.

2. What this means is that you must follow all of the same rules as Michigan teams.

3. During initial registration you must register at a Michigan district event, just like other Michigan teams. You must follow all the other rules as laid out in the Michigan Pilot Plan.

There it is. Now, how many of you would actually ask to participate if it was open to you?

Paul

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

For our school, yes, we would participate. We tried to talk our school into starting a FRC team this year and they were close to letting us start a team, but the vice principal told us no because 6-10,000 dollars was too expensive to justify for a single event on one weekend - he told us to look into cheaper competitions where we could play more. If we could have two events to play in for half the price, then I think they would let us play. So yes, we'd love to have the option the Michigan schools have this year and would take your offer. Seems like only Michigan schools get to save all the money this year, which doesn't do a lot of my friends any good who are seniors and wanted to play this year.

I don't think people are whining who think this seems unfair. I'm sure many Michigan teams would be saying this is unfair if the schools in Florida or California were getting such a discount and advantage. If it helped schools in Florida even it was unfair to all others, I'm sure I'd be supporting it and saying its a great idea or "just give it a try, it's a just a pilot". Guess it all depends on what state you go to school in.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Well while I do not speak for my entire team, and would have to talk it over with them. I personally would take you up on the offer if it was actually worked out and given to us. Even the traveling to MI from SC and back x2 maybe x3 could save us money and be worth while I would have to crunch some numbers to be sure.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Paul,

I think your question is somewhat unreasonable, and will result in a flawed outcome. I know that IF we (148) wanted to participate in this program it would result in another layer of costs for us. Whereas many teams local to MI can participate without any significant expense.

In my mind, a better pair of questions are:

1. Do you believe participation in this program gives a team an advantage (competitive, financial or otherwise) over teams who play using the traditional cost/event structure?

2. If this program were piloted in your state, would you participate?

Answering these two questions helps put the "fairness" of the issue in perspective (for me). I won't editorialize, everyone can form their own opinions.

A new set of questions to further frame the discussion (in my mind):

3. If this program were rolled out nation-wide in 2010, would it provide ALL teams an advantage (financial, or otherwise)?

4. Do I care that MI teams could potentially receive an advantage this year, if it helps proof a model which would provide an advantage to ALL teams in 2010?

Hmm... yep, that made me think some more.
Then again... my big questions are still:

5. Will this new model work at all (even in MI)?

6. Can this model be applied beyond the (great) state of Michigan successfully?

I imagine the answer to #5 will be answered emphatically "yes" this season. I have the utmost faith in the incredible teams and volunteers from the Michigan area. As many of you know, I have a lot of friends up there; you big dogs will definitely pull this off, and make it look good.

However, that still doesn't really make me feel any good about #6. I don't think proving that this model works in Michigan will really help us apply it down here in Texas.

I am not an "event" person by any means; my experience is primarily limited to team support. However, I've been around the block enough times to know that Michigan may be the "perfect storm" which allows this cool new model to function successfully. I question how making this work under ideal conditions is going to help us change the face of the program under NON-ideal conditions. I wonder how the powers that be will implement this elsewhere.

Some food for thought.
-John

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

One thing that I'm still not quite understanding is how so many people think this is an advantage???? I agree the point system is a good idea and allows for "fair" competetion (useing fair very loosely). Look at it from another perspective. A team that only goes to michigan events has to win twice to go to Atlanta, or come rather close to it. A team has to spend more money to get there; $14,000 compared to the regular fees, and although the new system benefits growth and stability, as far as leveling the playing field... we now play in the alps instead of the forest of Michigan. I agree this is a brilliant idea, but there seems to be a few ideas that were not taken into account when the structure was made. Now who will be the first to try and tell me off.....any takers.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

MI Team
Entrance Fee and two events $5,000
Regional Event $4,000
State Event $4,000
World Championship $5,000
Shipping ~$500
Total $18,500

Non-MI Team
Entrance Fee and one event $6,000
Regional Event $4,000
Regional Event $4,000
World Championship $5,000
Shipping ~$1,000
Total $20,000

This does not include travel for either team. If your goal is to compete with your robot as many times as possible for as little money as possible, then MI teams accomplished that. An MI team will have one extra comp under thier belt by the time they reach the WCs. Obviously this is just one scenario that could be played out. I see it as an advantage, however as many have said before it may be a necessary route to take for the advancement of FIRST in our great nation.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I understand that Michigan teams get to play more for less money, I was just saying that a direct shot to atlanta is more money, meaning one regular regional and Championships. I am all for the new system, I'm simply point out its flaw to quiet down the "Michigan teams have an advantage" side of the argument.

MI teams straight to Atlanta:
KOP + 2 Districts $5,000
State Event $4,000
World Championship $5,000
Total: $14,000

Non-MI teams straight to Atlanta:
KOP + Regional $6,000
World Championship $5,000
Total: $11,000

All I was saying is it is just the way you look at it. What is an advantage to some is a disadvantage to others.

You could also look at it in a way that a few of the power houses most likely are.
KOP + 2 Districts $5,000
State Event $4,000
Regional Event $4,000
World Championship $5,000
Total: $18,000

Compared to last year:
KOP + Regional $6,000
Regional Event $4,000
Regional Event $4,000
World Championship $5,000
Total: $19,000

It is just the way you look at it... the grass is always greener when it isn't yours.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Matter of fact, fuzzy, a MI team can sign up for Atlanta during open registration and doesn't have to attend the state championship.

The numbers for that are:
KOP+2 events: $5,000
Atlanta: $5,000
Total: $10,000

I think what people are annoyed about, mainly, is the decreased registration fee (which appears to be only for MI teams) and then MI teams get 2 events. If we all get decreased registration (even if it only includes one event), there will be a lot fewer people annoyed.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

The grass is plenty green on this side:D
-I am meerly stating a possible advantage for MI teams if a teams goal is to be better prepared for the World Championships. One definite advantage that an MI team has that I can see at the moment unless something changes is the shipping aspect. On the last build day our team and many others are putting the robot in the crate ready or not because FEDex is going to show up between 11:00 and 5:00. Mi teams will be able to work later untill a FIRST MI rep shows up to watch them put it in a bag and seal it.

Disclaimer: I realize that this is a pilot and things can change.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I think the point of trying something new is to make it "better" overall. If it was perfectly equitable in all aspects, then why go through the work and risk/chaos of making a change. Overall the hope is that this will be a net positive that it will have some sort of national (and/or international) scalability.

The FEDex advantage for MI teams is intentional in that they are trying something new. Ever since shipping started, there were inherent in-equalities and additional hassles towards shipping. (For instance California is 3 hours behind EST and therefore has 3 more hours from the launch of the game than any EST team). My estimates have over 100 tons of excess freight going around the country. My team is persnoally responsible for 250 pounds of crate weight shipped over 1000 miles during a season.

Recognizing these "advantages" is a good thing as these are the positive aspects that will hopefully outweigh the negatives of the system they are piloting.
Recognizing the "disadvantages" is a good thing as these are either areas for improvement or items that will have to be thrown into the equation of whether or not this system is a net positive worth the efforts associated with change.
One really big disadvantage for MI teams that I haven't seen in this thread is a lot of key mentors applying a ton of personal time trying to figure out a better system for FIRST instead of trying to figure out how to build a better Chassis, manipulator, Chairman's award submission....

So will MI teams have an net advantage in 2009? I certainly hope so. Will these advantages be applicable to others in th future? That's the goal. FIRST is a really really good thing. Some feel that it can be great. Calculated experimentation with improvements is one route to greatness. What can everyone do? Stop worrying about the "fairness" of 2009 and continue working on making FIRST the best it can be. For those of you outside of MI, but near a district event check it out and provide constructive criticism or better yet help out. If you are reasonably close, come check out the State Championship. It should have the quality of play that we all can be proud of.


EDIT/Apology: It was brought to my attention that my comments may be veiwed differently than I intended. I will leave the body as is as an example. My intentions were to keep a constructive (positive and negative) dialogue coninuing as opposed to destructive comments. After re-reading Dave's original post and some help from others I repect, I realize that negative comments are of value because they are what some may think about this situation (which is what this thread is about).

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Is there an advantage to this competition structure? One hopes so, else why would we be trying something that is worse than what is already in place? But even so, it will have positive and negative impacts for individual teams. The question the pilot will attempt to answer is whether the positives outweigh the negatives for FIRST in Michigan, and then whether that can be scaled up to FIRST overall and remain positive.

One thing I would note in the +/- figures given above, is that you are somewhat comparing apples to oranges. Or maybe valencias to navels. There is not a direct comparison of costs. If your only concern is getting to Atlanta in the least expensive manner, then Michigan teams come out ahead by $1000 (although they may have to pay shipping to get the robot to Atlanta, I forget how that works). MI teams pay $5000 entry for two district competitions plus pre-pay $5000 for the Championship; other teams pay $6000 entry for one regional competition and pre-pay $5000 for the Championship. If you want to get to Atlanta by the cheapest method of qualifying, the MI teams would have to pay the additional $4000 for the State Championship and gamble on qualifying, while the non-MI team would have to gamble on qualifying from their sole competition.

The real difference is what happens to teams along the way to Atlanta, and especially what happens to teams that don't advance anywhere. Teams that would have spent $6000 to enter one regional now pay $1000 less to get two districts.