Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I have no doubt what you say is true. The thought that comes to mind is that I hope then, future FRC events can learn/follow these examples and bring the regional event costs much cheaper.
One example is the shipping of robots. We paid a lot more for shipping this past season following FIRST guidelines as opposed to some other teams that got them way cheaper, doing it themselves.
These are the kinds of things that should be brought to light and shared to bring the costs down. Its too bad after talking with other teams that we found this out.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Pros:

Multiple Events!!! - This would be a first for my team. We have never been able to raise the money to go to multiple events.

No Shipping - For those local teams who remember shipping was terrible this year, with our UPS (or Fedex I don't actually remember) calling us at the end of the last day of build season saying they wouldn't be able to pick up our robot on time.

Cons:

No Practice Day - For Team 240, and I'm sure many others, practice day is the first time our robot sets its wheels on the field. Without a practice day it will be very difficult to implement a good autonomous/hybrid mode.

Additional Cost for Michigan Championship - Even if our team made it to the Michigan Championship, I'm not sure we would be able to raise the funds to compete in it.

Overall:

I like the idea. I think its going to give us more time to compete with our robot while still keeping costs down. And as mentioned, its a pilot, if it doesn't work FIRST can kill it. If it does work, however, I can see this moving on to all of FIRST.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I think practice days should still be part of a regional competition.
Its not that I think teams need more time to fix any bugs that their robot has, its the other factors that we have no control over.
In 2006 and '07 when we tried to calibrate and get our CMU cam to work properly, different venues lighting were slightly different causing what we think is the reason for its malfunction at times. It also gives teams time to meet each other, check out other robots, and scout.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Advancement is covered well in the documents linked on the FIRST homepage announcement and Beth's post. 18 teams will qualify for Atlanta from the Michigan Championship event. There will be two ways to advance - the awards won at the championship (Chairmans, EI, winners, etc) plus the points earned through the entire season.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

[quote=francistexas;759567]
MI teams are saving money, yes...unless you merit Atlanta, compared to teams who qualify through one regional.
[quote]

I guess what you say could possibly be true, but did not actually happen last year. From the 118 teams in Michigan, only 4 went to one regional and Atlanta. None of these 4 earned their way in to Atlanta, they purchased open slots and did not qualify thru competition. So I guess if you want to do one event and try to get lucky, you can go out of state. Here in Michigan we are going to try to reduce randomness as much as possible and implement a system in which all competing teams get enough matches to more definitively determine who is the best. If you want to depend on luck, go to the casino. FIRST is about Math and Science. Statistic 101 says, if you take more samples, you can sort more robustly. The new system will definitely be much better at promoting the best robots.

Obviously cannot be proved until we execute, but I would be willing to bet that the level of competition at the 2009 MI championship will be better than at any other regional event in the world.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I found a dozen such teams.

• 5 Melvindale – Detroit
• 322 Flint – GLR
• 468 Flushing (Flint) – Midwest
• 858 Wyoming – W Mich
• 894 Flint – GLR
• 1023 Bedford (Temperance) – GLR
• 1025 Ferndale – Detroit
• 1254 Lawrence – W Mich
• 1528 Monroe – Detroit
• 2474 Niles – Boilermaker – Rookie All Star
• 2591 Detroit – GLR – Rookie All Star
• 2604 Capac –W Mich – Winner and Rookie All Star

The 3 rookies were all at Kettering, so it's debatable to say whether they went to 1 regional or 2.

Jim is correct, all the other teams that were in one regional got to Atlanta on the "pay the way in" method, not by direct qualification.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Does anyone know where the 7 events will be located? Hopefully, they will be spread out as to be easy for all teams to get to.

Also, what is the purpose of the 16 regions?

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

As far as I can gather the 16 regions are for the purpose of easing growth within the state and don't actually have anything to do with competition sites. As for the 7 events, the only ones I can find are that West Michigan and Detroit are going to be sites of district events, along with one at Kettering. Great Lakes is going to be the site of the State Championship.

Hopefully there will be at least one district competition a little farther north for our friends in the UP.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I think that we all can agree that we need to try to increase the Return On Investment for teams.

In 2001 I was on a rookie team (688) as a senior in high school, the following year I was a mentor on the same team. But the team folded because we did not see the cost and time justification to go to only one event a year.

As for the the Kettering Rookie Regional, our team (2337) attend and thought that the event covered 90-95% of what a typical regional consist of. Granted there wasn't a big black curtain or large flashy lights, but it was still as exciting as any of the other regionals we attended (KRR, DET, WMI, and Championship). I think that you can still keep the excitement and flash in a High School Gym by having the correct "mood" lighting, by turning off certain lights (dim the stands and light the field).

Jason Monroe took a bunch of great pictures from the Kettering Rookie Regional last year and can be found on his website. (KRR-Pictures)

Also there are a lot of High Schools (Grand Blanc) in the state of Michigan that can handle more teams and have better layouts then the current regionals (DET). Grand Blanc's gym can seat twice as many people as the Detroit regional and also has an adjacent gym that can be used as the pits. But then again I might be bias.

I like the idea of bagging your robot and getting certification that it was bagged and sealed on the appropriate day, rather then spending the extra cost to ship the robot just <30 miles away.

Finally I can not agree more with Jim Z. during the practice day there are way to many people upgrading or changing their robot. I have seen people bring totally different manipulators and spend the whole day modifying their robot. If people are going to do this wouldn't you want to do it at your own facility? With the new pilot program teams will have an 8 hour period to do so, after each event.

I am looking forward to the 2009 season.

-Oris-

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I still don't see what's wrong with upgrading/changing the robot design.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Also, if awards like Chairmans or Engineering Inspiration are awarded only at the state championships, will only one Michigan team be able to represent the state at the championships? (right now three teams from Michigan-or who attend Michigan regionals- are able to present their Chairmans presentation to judges)

I think this will be good for rookies or struggling teams or teams with very limited supplies and members but I still have mixed feelings about this, although maybe because the competitions will be closer more people (parents, friends, family members, teachers) will attend? That could ultimately increase the interest and knowledge of FIRST helping the program grow and gaining more school support. I guess we will all see how it works out. :)

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

While I can sit here and post about 1,000 whats ifs on the subjuct and pros and cons here is the bottom line. Kudos to Michigan teams for trying something like this its probablly one of the only states that could pull something like this off currently. Also remember this is a "pilot" a experiement no more, no less if it turns into a diasaster FIRST can and will stop it. I will agree that there are many details that need to be worked out to implement this all over the country, but as someone stated previously in this thread FIRST has been using essentially the same regional system since 1992. So I do think it's time we've at least tried something. As a Florida firster I can sympathize with many of the struggling and rookie teams in MI as Florida has plenty of extint teams and teams that need major support to keep going. Finally, we should try to increase the return on the invesmesnt for everyone isn't that a good thing, last time I checked it was in my book.

Thats what I think Mr.Lavery :] ,
Drew

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I guess I have more problems with people that do a complete redesign at the beginning of their first event.

-Oris-

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

The top 3 Chairman's and Woodie Flowers award submissions from the state championship will move on to the championship pool. So there will be the same number of Michigan submissions as last year.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Please keep in mind (as a couple of other posts have stated) that this is a PILOT program. There seems to be a lot of jumping on the negatives - instead of giving a negative, how about adding a possible solution? I did notice one post do this with a possibility for inspection process. I realize that many of the possible negatives being brought up are done so with the intent of helping to point any potential pitfalls, but I think we need to try to be a little more positive and open-minded about this. Change is not always bad - it's okay to get out of your comfort zone a little bit once in a while. Otherwise, how would you ever learn anything new??? I'm sure there will be some difficulties, but at the same time I'm sure they will be corrected as we go and the events will go on without anyone being seriously maimed or worse (at least not because of this change). At the end of the season we can step back and look at how things went and see if this is something worth pursuing. What worked well, what needs to be changed, etc. Individual teams do this with their robot when implementing changes throughout the season - now FIRST is doing the same with the overall competition.

I, for one, am excited to try this and will maintain a positive attitude throughout. MI teams have a chance to possible steer the direction of FIRST (hopefully for the better), but it will only work if everyone goes out with their best effort to make this work or figure out what needs to happen to make it work (if it will work at all). Again, we will never know unless we try. Let's try to keep this a positive thing.

Just my $0.02

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Sounds like a really good idea
:)

hopefully this can be enacted elsewhere eventually, though, this would stiffle meeting teams from other states

hopefully this will help reduce the cost of events allowing teams with smaller budgets to spend more money on the robot and training material.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

The neat thing about change is that we never know what initiatives will develop or come from the change, be they small or large in concept. Teams will continue meeting teams from around the world but this could also be a possibility for helping countries and large states develop ways of coping with their size and distances while expanding the program.

Teams are full of surprises and innovative ideas and many are willing to share what they've experienced and learned. The off-season could become a wonderful time for travel, training, sharing knowledge, and fun. I often think where one door closes, a window opens. That goes along with the glass 1/2 full approach to things and could be applied to this pilot program.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Possible upside- no longer will our bots be tucked inside some truck,moving from regional to regional. Time to buy that trailer you wanted. Paint it up with sponsors and watch the roads fill-up for acouple of weekends. Maybe buy one of those suvs people are giving away and put it away till next season. Wonder if you can buy trailer stock?:)

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Ooo, I like that. We've been debating about buying a trailer...I guess we need to now.
Another upside- no longer worrying if your crate will be overweight... We came just a few pounds shy overweight at GLR, and THAT gave us a scare.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Not to mention the those crate gremlins won't be able to get at your 'bot. I wonder if the bag gremlins and trailer gremlins are just as bad?

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Trailer gremlins... cringe. I here trailer gremlins love to mess with dry rotted tires and poorly kept wheel bearings.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

We don't have access to a full size playing field during the season. We NEED Thursday to test and modify our robot so that it performs competitively, both mechanically and in software. Maybe Michigan has more full playing fields floating around for testing during the build season, but other areas don't.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Downside?-parking will fill-up fast.
You know, in michigan teams are pretty helpful. We have been invited to use practice fields every year. We just seem to need that first regional to get the bot up to speed.I guess we will have to suck it up and work alittle harder to get to one of those pre-ship events.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

The first regional is always a steep learning curve. On the Bright Side, now you get a second event to shine at with a "fully" tuned machine.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

This may be a dumb question but if there are more matches to play/participate in at the events, won't that help with the process?

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

But of course, there's no such thing as a dumb question...
With more matches, it will probably help most teams get their robot almost completely tuned up before the second day. But if we had a Thursday...we could use that time to do the tuning up, and as a result would play better in the matches on Friday. Oftentimes, there's not a huge gap between matches, and that doesn't provide a lot of time to have a failing aspect of the robot completely changed. With the practice day, we have a field to test features on, and if they don't work, we have an almost unlimited amount of time to fix them.

So yes, it would help, but it's not as good as a Thursday.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I'm going to admit, I've only read the first 5 pages, and I'm sure what I'm saying has been said numerous times.

But to voice my opinion anyways;

This was my first thought when a mentor told us about the change.
I'm prolly preaching to the choir but;
Benefits from being Away From Home;
Team Bonding
Everyone is togeather for the three/four day span (therefor no unexpected absenses, no accidental lateness, etc)
Seeing Teams you wouldn't see otherwise...
And I'm sure you can fill in other reasons.


Everyone is mentioning the lack of quality that the new events will have, which will make it harder to impress sponsors.

And although the new system will hopefully make things cheaper, its still hard to get sponsors. Which also mentioned periodically throughout the thread.



Yes, there will be an advantage, but if this works out and makes FIRST that much better, then we can handle it. And if it doesn't work out? Now we know. I don't think this should really be an issue. Its unfair to us, but its also unfair to Michigan teams. I'm sure some of them aren't happy about this, and we might think they're lucky, but I'm sure they're thinking we're lucky.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

True that.



Sot sum up my veiws;

If this becomes the future, I'll miss out-of-state events
The smaller regionals won't be as much fun
It'll be cheaper for some teams (but maybe not for others)
It might discourage sponsors
Michigan team advantage shouldn't be a concern right now.

FIRST encourages us innovate, we need to encourage them innovate.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I'm feeling a little apprehensive about this. Obviously the growth of FIRST is always a great thing, but as has been said, locking teams into this system was not welcome by everyone. I also feel that making FIRST into more of a varsity sport than a professional one is anticlimactic, since there is nothing higher in the hierarchy than FRC and it should be treated as the best of the best. If people want to encourage growth in FIRST, IMHO, they should have continued with FRC being in its current regional-championship structure and made the smaller FTC into a varsity-type sport which could lead up to FRC teams.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Several people have used this agruement against this new system, and I don't really understand it. How is this new system making FRC less 'professional'?

As a fan, I'm really excited and hope this new system works out. By forcing teams to do well in the district competitions to qualify for the state competition will only increase the stakes and increase the competition. Then, the state competitions should be very competitive as only the better teams are there. I would think that if this new system gets implemented in all states, the only way to get to Atlanta would be to qualify in the state competitions (as opposed to signing up early), which would mean that the Championship event would (for the first time) have the best 300 or so robots, resulting an a very competitive and exciting two days.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Bingo! Repped.

So do I, but for other reasons. Michigan had a choice to make. They could either try out this new district/state system, or try to create another full regional somewhere in the state. That, or be faced with the prospect of either limiting growth of FIRST in Michigan, or telling teams that there wasn't enough space in the regionals so they would be forced to travel. If Michigan got as few as 20 more teams in the next year or two, there wouldn't be enough spots in the existing regionals for all of them to play, let alone trying to go to a second regional.

If this works out, other areas that already have multiple regionals a close distance apart (such as NY/LI) would have another model as those regionals begin to fill. In any event, FRC in general has to face their growing pains. They can't continue to add 200-300 teams per year, and expect there to be regionals added on to meet the demand. Eventually there will have to be another model of competition format. Michigan is trying one out - one that happens to be lower cost for the teams. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Maybe it won't translate to situations everywhere. It remains to be seen.

FLL faced up to their growth pains by not inviting every state champion to the World Festival. FTC invited only the captains of the winning alliances to Atlanta. I'm sure that these wouldn't be acceptable alternatives for FRC.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

That's where I've been getting the "less professional" vibe from. Admittedly it doesn't sound like the end of FIRST as we know it. And if Kettering was pretty good, as people are saying, then I guess I don't have to worry just yet. :o

On another note, are teams going to be shoehorned into district events by location or will they be allowed to sign up like any other regional?

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Let's see what's more professional, a high school gymnasium with 30-40 teams or a stadium full of anywhere from 40-70 teams?

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

What's more professional, NFL teams playing in their normal stadiums or playing in the Coliseum (home to USC's Trojans)?

Answer that, and I'll answer your question.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I wouldn't use professional, but I would use 'less worthy of potentially [tens of] thousands of dollars our money for sponsorship'. Or less 'Wow, that's really unique!' and more 'oh, you have one of those teams too? That's um... nice. Now can you let me get back to work?'.

Look at your local high school sports teams. Chances are if they have team sponsors, it's places like Joe's Service Station or Hometown Bank for amounts like $250 or $500. You don't see Nike or Adidas or Reebok sponsoring high school sports teams for $5k, $10k or $20k+ each. Why? Because there are just so many of them - it wouldn't be economically feasible.

FRC teams as they currently stand can enjoy a lot higher corporate sponsorships than high school sports teams largely because they aren't in every high school, and because they can have a positive effect for the sponsoring company.

And my greatest concern is that it is impossible to cut so much "excess costs" from FRC that it becomes cheap enough to get into every high school without sacrificing the core strengths of FRC from the program. If they do manage to get it cheap enough, you'll end up with a program that more or less is exactly the same as FTC or IFI Vex.

So why kill your "crown jewel" competition model, the one that is great for getting large name sponsors [and their sponsorship donations] and for exciting and inspiring everyone with something that is "over the top" of all the rest of the robotics competitions, just to turn it into a low-cost program that already exists?

It all comes down to economics. I don't think it is economically possible to get FRC into every high school in the country. And this is coming from someone who lives in what is often cited as the "richest state" in the country. There's a reason why the number of new FRC teams in Connecticut hasn't drastically changed for years - and that's all the major sources of funding (corporate and government) have already been been tapped.

And in these economic hard times, with many town and state governments running in the red and pushing severe budget cuts to get into the black, and companies looking to shed excess costs anywhere they can to stay afloat, this isn't the time to look to press for huge expansion of the program. Rather, this is the time to hunker down, shore up the existing resources, and wait until the economy improves to begin a large growth of the program. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure when you can't get the necessary funding in place to properly do a district-level competition, and that's not fair for the teams who are "locked-in" to that format.

I'm not opposed to growing FIRST by any measure, but I am opposed to doing it unsustainably. I'm tired of constantly pushing to get new teams started, just to watch them fade after a year or two because there isn't enough companies in the area to provide the sponsorship to keep them afloat. There are much better, cheaper methods (FTC and Vex) that are a lot more sustainable for immediate large growth of the program.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Yes, I understand what you are saying, but the problem is that the stadiums are not full or even close to full. I've only been to the Wisconsin (3 years) and Midwest (2 years) regionals, but even on Saturday afternoon those stadiums is at best 25% full. While I did enjoy being on the field looking up at all the seats, it was a little depressing looking at all the empty seats. It also could not have been cost effective to rent out those stadiums for three days, either.

I think that if you do the distict competitions properly--good lighting and sound, the full gymnasium may provide a better atmosphere than the mostly empty stadiums. (A class of 25 students in a room that has 50 desks looks a lot smaller than a class of 25 students in a room with 25 desks). And, you would save a lot of money.

If I remember reading it correctly, the Michigan State competition will be held at GLR, so I would assume it would have the same atmosphere everyone is used to at the Regionals.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

One thing you have to take into account, a regional here in Mi. cost approx $250,000.00 to put on, that takes a ton of sponsors.

We put the Kettering Rookie Event on for under $15,000.00. If my memory serves me correctly it was closer to $13,000.00.

If you take that $15,000.00 and x by 7 you are still under 1/2 of what a regional costs here.

It would be mucher easier going to a sponsor to say for that $15,000.00 you can be the sole sponsor ( yes I know FIRST wants as many as possible) than it would be to raise that 1/4 million dollars.

We could take that $125-130,000.00 and help struggling teams.

Each year a generous donor gives approx $50,000.00 for new teams to start up. They each get the $6,000.00 if needed. We have a great infastructure here in Michigan.

Remember it is Dean's dream for every school to have a team !!

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I refuse to believe that you can put on an event not named IRI equivalent in stature and atmosphere to a normal regional with only $15,000. I'd love to see proof otherwise.

Furthermore, if it's *that* easy to cut $235,000 off the price of a regional, why hasn't it happened before now?

Something doesn't add up.

And to the point that you could take the other $130,000 and spread it to the teams--if you tell a sponsor that an event costs 15 times less than it used to, they will probably either cut their donation by a corresponding amount, or wonder what the heck their money has been going to previously, for it to be that much more expensive.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

So you're saying that FIRST should be more elite, that we should not seek to give other students the opportunities that are there for existing teams today. And that without all the bells and whistles at a competition, no one would be inspired by the 6 weeks of work in build season - which, I might point out, in most cases is done in a non-professional high school shop!

What's so special about IRI except for the teams that show up? Granted, the school is huge and the space is more than ample. But it's the people that are putting on the event that make it work. That's what happened at the Kettering Rookie event.

I am not privy to the figures, but I imagine there are two tremendous sources of cost savings. First, the cost of the arena itself. And second, the professional event management. At IRI and at Kettering you didn't see coordinators running around with headsets. Queuers used sneaker communications, not radio. Volunteers served meals, not a catering service. Do those little things make the competition any less?

I will admit that, with smaller district competitions, the powerhouse teams won't all be at the same events. So maybe a rookie team won't be able to be quite so inspired by being able to play with (or against!) 47, 217, 27, 503, 469 and 67 at one event. But they might see 4 out of the 6 of them at their 2 events - and if they make it to the state championships they will likely see all of them.

The choice had to be made. Either FRC changes, or FRC becomes inaccessable for new teams. Or maybe in order to allow new rookie teams in, some veteran teams would have to be given a year off in a rotating schedule. Or we'd have to limit teams to only one regional each. Wouldn't that be met with wailing and gnashing of teeth!

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Well I do have the info. I was the volunteer coordinator. We did do the event for the price I stated earlier. Kettering donated the space, we didn't have to pay the $100,000.00 for an arena.

We didn't have to rent the automation equipment, we were able to borrow it from on of our committee members who is a top engineer at Delphi.

Why is that you think that because you don't spend a ton of money it can't be top notch? Trust me, it was incredible. Something that I am proud to say I helped put on. :D

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Relying on donations immediately calls into question the sustainability and extensibility of this pilot, as far as I'm concerned. While it's fantastic that Kettering was willing to donate space to hold the competition, we can't forget that there are schools with teams that charge them for use of their own facilities!

I've looked at the photos of the Kettering Event and I'm not impressed. It obviously lacked the polish and sophistication of a regional event -- and it wasn't because the volunteers did not have radios. My apologies to those involved, but it appeared amateurish -- from its lack of pipe and drape to the projected images bleeding off the edge of the screen. I've never gone to Major League Baseball game to find out that somebody didn't know how to turn on the jumbotron.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I don't understand why so many people are upset that FIRST might be moving from a shiny-fancy model to a more-competitions model. The State Championship and the World Championship still exist, and they're going to be just as big and shiny as ever.

It seems people are getting in a huff because their FIRST experience is going to get "watered down" being in a high school gymnasium instead of a hockey arena. How many other people are going to get an experience with FIRST that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten because we are saturating regionals and unable to reduce the economic barriers to running competitions?

Where do you think money for Regional competitions comes from? Boston University (graciously!) allows the Boston Regional to use their facility, and many more local corporations and schools donate the significant amounts of money it takes to orchestrate an event of that scale. In that regard, Boston is potentially unsustainable as well.

If FIRST gets to the point where it's "Oh, you have a robotics team too?" then we've accomplished our mission. The goal isn't to have "special" high schools that are able to have robotics teams, the goal is to inspire people to be interested in science, technology, engineering, and math and to incite cultural change. Robotics teams being dime a dozen sounds like cultural change to me. If you can get Robotics on the same model as Football then you don't need $10,000 sponsors.

I think people need to stop thinking about how this change would personally affect them, and consider the effects that it will have on FIRST as a whole. There are a lot of people who you've never met and might not even know FIRST exists right now who would immensely benefit from the experience this new program could offer them.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

The point is that the money is used to pay professionals in their respective fields to organize these events. The donors themselves -- whether they be colleges and universities or large corporations -- do not have the expertise or capacity to manage a show. In fact, the donors frequently hire the very same people that FIRST does and others like them to handle events like our regional events.

I think something will be lost -- consistency, for one -- when we excise the professionals from the process and instead rely on a friend's uncle somewhere that has an amp leftover from his garage band days for the event's A/V setup. It seems unlikely that these committees will be able to get the many companies that are currently contracted for things like A/V to donate their services -- and do so many times over. It's not as if nobody ever thought to ask, "Hey, will you all do this for free?"

We're paying these people for their services because it's ensured a consistent level of quality at all events -- and I can't imagine how, if services of their caliber are available for free and many times over -- why regional planning committees still decide to pay for this stuff. It just doesn't make sense.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

FIRST events should not be watered down.
Teachers, mentors, students, know better that its the learning experience that counts. But, do the stakeholders that help support teams know better?

Why do people have huge banners of their sponsors? Many of them are a business first, and anything to help put them in the spotlight in a high quality event with lots of news coverage is important to them.
Its the harsh reality of it all.

Bells and whistles on your robot and the event, puts an audience in awe. At our regional, guess who was on the front page, in the news, and in all other media coverage. The PINK team! Why, because they had an awesome eye-candy robot in addition to looking cool with their pink shirts and having a spirited attitude.

The Hawaii Regional planning committee spent nearly 30,000.00 for a Friday social event near the beach. It was THE best social even for me who has lived here all my life.
If instead to save cost, we did some watered down version in a much less scenic area with low-budget food, sure.......we could say we saved money, and it isn't the point of FIRST. But, the comments by everyone was that it was an event they would never forget. Heck, one team said it made up for the frustrating day they had earlier.

Having a fabulous experience can only help when teams look to sacrifice year after year in spreading the word of FIRST. We all know that anyone that does FIRST makes huge sacrifices in time, money, and personal life.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I'm not saying that at all, in fact, quite the opposite. I one-hundred percent believe FIRST should get into every school in the country, but I don't think FRC is the perfect vehicle for that widespread expansion.

FRC != FIRST. FIRST is about much more than FRC; it's also about FTC, FLL, and JFLL. It is a lot easier to get one (or two, or three, or four) FTC or Vex team(s) in every high school in the country than is is to get an FRC team into every high school in the country.

As such, I would rather see every high school get a FTC or Vex team first. Not only is it a lot more economically feasible, but the entire competition model of FTC/Vex is much better suited for a large scale competition with tens of thousands of teams. (Everything about FTC or Vex costs but a fraction of even the cheapest FRC off-season competitions).

Once FTC or Vex gets into 60-80% or more of all high schools, then come back to talk about looking to get as many of those expanded to FRC, as by then the necessary support infrastructure is already in place, and over the very short term goals, we have expanded the scope of FIRST much more than a [cheaper] FRC could ever have.

That is not elitism, that is looking to get the opportunity and inspiration of FIRST, as far reaching as quickly and cheaply as possible. That's like anti-elitism.

I have no qualms about FRC expanding to district-level competitions, I just believe that FIRST isn't pursuing the most cost- and resource-efficient methods for expanding the scope of their outreach.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

i really wanted to go to a Michigan regional this year. :(

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Best of luck FIRST Michigan with your pilot program!

I for one am excited that FIRST is stepping out of their comfort zone to try something different. Will the next year be problem free? Probably not. Should that stop FIRST from trying at all? I hope not, because that is the same determination that is needed to survive in today's world, the same persistence that FIRST instills in the students it inspires, the willingness to take a risk and try something that many say can't or shouldn't be done.

I'm also excited that there will be even more opportunities to volunteer at FIRST events. That is one of our team's mentors goals this year - to go to other areas and volunteer - and this initiative will give us so many more choices and chances.

I guess I never knew that FIRST was about the regional events being all polished and pretty. I thought it was about the team building, robot designing, robot building, solving problems, getting the future excited about science and technology and engineering. And yes, the regional competitions are key to building that enthusiasm, but I've been to regionals in several venues and know that the enthusiasm and excitement comes from much more that curtains and audio-visual equipment.

See! It is about the teams, not the venues! Until we hear where the district competitions are going to be, why should we expect that they are going to feel any less like a regional?

And audiences in awe! Is it better to have a packed gymnasium or a massive but sparsely filled stadium? Especially stadiums where you are not allowed to hang those banners where you have proudly printed your sponsor's names?

And based on the attendance of the Hawaii regional, that came out to $10-15 a person. That is not too extravagant, nor is that in indicator of quality of a regional over a district event. Some regionals offer pizza and games for their social, some host them in interesting places, and some don't have one at all. Most charge extra, so while I'm glad that Hawaii's social was awesome, it neither adds to nor subtracts from the events in Michigan.

You all make the experience fabulous! And honestly I have to say that I’ve had fabulous experiences at tiny off-seasons, big off-seasons, pre-ship rallies, small regionals and big regionals and at the championship event. I really hope that you all aren't sacrificing all of your time, money, and personal life just to go to a super-de-duper regional event. Because FIRST is way more than that. And I’m hoping that this pilot program can bring that FIRST experience to many more students and schools in Michigan.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Well I do like the idea of the cost effective district regionals and then holding a big one for the state. What I feel could be an issue for some people/teams is the way the points system is gonig to be deault with. I lookd throught the way the points would be awarded and the problems i see could come more or less what distrcit regional you go to. Living in Southeast Michigan were the supply of high quality teams is the greatest, it could prevent a problem to smaller teams also in the area. The agurement is if there are only two district regionals in this area and they might as weel be regualr FRC regionals based on team competiveness.
The elite teams will take alot of the points away from the smaller teams preventing them from being able to go on to the State Regional and have a shot at Atlanta. But that is just my small problem, yet it could be possible that this issue really never comes up. But like eeryone else i'll have to wait until march to see.:ahh:

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

And taken to the ridiculous extreme, the counter-argument to that position is that we should cancel FRC entirely until FTC or Vex gets near saturation. After all, that's most cost effective, right?

Either you make a form of FRC available for all-comers, or you are acting in an elite fashion - someone is kept out because they aren't deserving of it yet. Who will make the determination of who can enter?

I don't agree with everything FIRST in Michigan is doing. I have reservations about some aspects of this proposal. But I recognize that we can't stick with business as normal because costs and resources are being stretched to the limits.

Even if these districts can't all be run with a budget of $15,000, they can surely be done much cheaper than regionals. If $500,000 is saved by not holding Detroit and West Michigan as traditional regionals, and 7 districts are run on an average of $20,000 or $40,000 - well, as Mark is wont to say, "That's why we do the math!"

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I am really quite saddened that my entire argument about the economics and financial feasibility of getting FRC into every high school has been essentially reduced deteriorated into practically a personal "you-are-with-us-or-you-are-against-us" attack of my supposed "elitism".

All I am doing is presenting an opposing view, highlighting any possible glitches that may be on the path forward to expanding FIRST. If no one ever stepped forward in life when they saw a potential flaw in anything, nothing in life would ever succeed. So rather than chime along with an endless series of "Yes! Great Plan! I'm with you 100%! Carry on full steam!", I am pressing issues which I see with this plan to make everyone on the whole think a lot more deeply about this and any potential implications and complications this idea would constitute. Consider it a well-crafted disguise of reverse psychology*.

If I was financially successful in life and had the means, I would give $6k to every high school in the country to start an FRC team, along with a few other charities, like Make a Wish. Without hesitation. But I'm not [yet, hopefully :)] at that kind of a position in life, so I give what I can - time and experience - to two FRC teams, several Vex teams, and various times volunteering at FIRST events all over. I estimate that among all of those, I probably spend several hundred hours per year donating my time and efforts to FIRST-related teams and events.

If I didn't care about the program - the mission of FIRST - then I (along with everyone else here) wouldn't do all that, and I certainly wouldn't be here right now.


* But don't take that statement to mean that I will cease to stand by many of my original criticisms of their plan. Things never improve through rubber stamping. And if you don't believe me, I think you and I would see eye to eye on this issue if this quote "Either you make a form of FRC available for all-comers, or you are acting in an elite fashion" was instead worded like this "Either you make a form of FIRST available for all-comers, or you are acting in an elite fashion". It's a bit presumptuous if we (or FIRST) should determine which program a school should participate in; that should be the school's decision based upon the available space, time, resource, faculty, and financial conditions of their school. No one knows what they are capable of more than themselves. The only thing that really matters is that they are involved in some way, and inspiring students.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Art, I'm not trying to make this personal with you or anyone else. But I think that what several people are missing in this conversation is that something had to change, or teams would not be able to enter FRC, no matter how many resources they had. FRC is reaching capacity in Michigan. In order to allow additional teams to join in the near future, something had to change. Sure new teams could do VEX*. But then the same arguments come back - "It's not the same thing." "It's not as exciting." "Those little robots on a 12-foot arena in a gym aren't as inspiring as the big bots in an arena."

The other thing this pilot hopes to do is address a major concern that has been raised by many teams over the years - the cost. It appears that it lowers the initial cost from $6000 to $5000, and then gives teams more for that money - two competitions instead of one. Plus with more competition sites, less travel expenses.

I'm not rubber-stamping anything. I had no hand in putting any of this together, and if I had there would be aspects that I would be questioning. I think though that I can trust the crew that had a hand in it, that they are acting in good faith. I also think that I can trust that if this doesn't work out, it will be modified to make it work or given up and something else will be found. Something had to change. Let's see if this is a good solution or not.

Gary

* Don't even get me started on why they can't do FTC in "certain states like Michigan".

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I was speaking in a general manner. I do hope the Michigan events with its cost effective plan delivers the same punch as everyone will hope and work towards. If it does, that spells some optimistic hope for other regionals to look at their own costs and seeing where they can be more efficient.
Again, that lustre, however it is defined, should not be lost.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I think you are missing Art's point, that maybe FRC is not the correct vehicle for all schools.

Personally, I hope this pilot works out well for all in Michigan, but this may be a case of trying to do too much with FRC rather than working to create a tiered system and fitting the school into what they can afford/accomplish/support.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

This makes me want to go see a Michigan event (are they still considered regionals ?) even more just to see what the new format looks like.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

One thing about volunteering.

I have a limited amount of vacation time that I can spend on FIRST (for some reason my wife expects me to spend some with her.)

Eliminating the Thursday will give me an extra day to volunteer at another event. I'm pretty excited about that.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

All my vacation time is basically used to volunteer at FIRST events.
< has no life.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

No, I'm not missing that point. I'm looking beyond that point. What do we do when no schools, no matter what their resources, can join FRC because there is no place for them to compete?

Thus my disagreement with "certain states like Michigan" which do not have FTC. But that still doesn't address the concern of how to allow FRC for schools that can afford it.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

FIRST doesn't want VEX or Tech in Michigan. Plain and simple. They have told us this. VEX or Tech is more for states like N. Dakota, Kansas, etc. We tried to get an "offical" VEX Tourney here. They told us no. We did hold a tourney anyways but it wasn't with the blessings from FIRST. I will say the 1 1st year it was held they allowed a few teams to go to the championship. They won't allow that anymore though.

By the way I take great offense to calling the Kettering Rookie Event amateurish. You just insulted about 1000 people including the teams that attended. BTW I have 2 things to say about your comment. 1 of those rookies took 3rd place at the Championship. 2. Paul Godonus (?) was there (in case you didn't recognize him in the picture) along with Fracois Castaing and other top officals who attended TOTALLY disagreed with you. They told all of us during a luncheon that he was shocked by how well it ran. He also told us that we gave 95% of everything that a regular regional gives for 1/15 of the cost.

Please don't put words into my mouth by saying we "borrowed a used amp from an uncle's garage". We used top notch material. Kettering has professional video cameras etc.. I really don't understand such negativity. It is a good thing to step out of your comfort zone and see the rest of the world. :D

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Isn't that exactly what this is preventing though? I'd never been to St. Louis, New Orleans, or Atlanta until this past year when I joined FRC. I want to be able to go to places out of state. I want to see my country and meet people from all different regions who are interested in the same thing as I. Many of my newest friends are from Michigan, and they want to be able to see their out of state friends again at regionals, but this is preventing that. I've been nearly every where in my state, and I'm sure that's a common thing for many FRC students in their own states. I want to go see the places and people I haven't ever been around before. I've said it before...that's just what makes FRC so unique.

I know there are a lot of I's in this post, but I have many friends in Michigan, as I've said, who are very upset with having to do this.

[My last post here.]

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

$5000 intial fee (KOP and 2 district competitions)
$4000 State Championship
$4000 Out of state competition
$5000 FIRST Championship


This payment structure may suggest that the entry fee for all teams may have gone down $1,000. Is this true or is it just wishfull thinking for the rest of us. Also I have my own thoughts on why they are allowing 18 or so teams to advance to the world championships from the MI State championships however I was wondering what others thought of this?

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

The 18 teams advancing to the Championship reflects the 18 teams that previously advanced from Great Lakes, West Michigan and Detroit Regionals. Granted, two teams from Indiana qualified from West Michigan this year. But teams from Michigan qualified from other regionals, which will be still be possible but less likely in the future.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

It is wonderful that you were part of a team that could travel to many states and compete in multiple events. Unfortunately there are many teams that have never traveled or been to more than one event. The past four years we have only been to Great Lakes Regional and as soon as we get our robot working perfectly the event and our season is over. We now will finally have a chance to compete more than once. I will take the loose of Thursday to get a chance at a second event any time. We will now know ahead of time to make sure our robot is working better when we bag it up after build. If you have a committed team there is no reason not to complete your robot build on time.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

254 and 968 would beg to differ, as would many other excellent teams.

You can't just choose to make sure the robot will be working better than normal. Not once has our team ever slacked off because we knew we would have Thursday to finish the bot. Every year for the last 3 years we have slept in our lab from Thursday night to Tuesday morning, in an effort to finish our robot. There was nothing in any of those years we could have done to be more prepared for Thursday of the event.

Stuff happens, and Thursday is invaluable for many teams. Eliminating Thursday won't hurt teams like 254, because we would be able to accomplish more in our own shop than at the event, but it will hurt the teams that need the help the most-those that show up, with all kinds of work to do, with a 30 lb overweight robot that isn't totally put together.

With the current setup, other teams at the event will take notice of said team struggling, and help them to be ready come Friday morning.

Now those teams will be forced to do it all themselves in 8 hours, instead of 12, with no other teams around for help.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Don’t get me wrong, I hate to loose Thursday too but if it’s a choice between having Thursday or having two events I will take the two events and make the adjustment during build weather we like it or not. If all the other teams are in the same boat than the difficulty will be equal. I do not believe for one minute that any team slacks off during build but I do believe in the ability of the teams to adjust. If we were given four weeks to build we would find a way.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

The ONLY DOWNSIDE I see to losing thursday is getting all of the inspections done before playtime. The last 5 years and maybe beyond( Iwasn't around yet) our machines have been put in the crate, competition ready and are ready to roll on thursday morning. I would pick the 8 hours at school in our machine shop over 12 hours in a smoking hot gym/arena anyways. I look at cutting the thursdays as a cost savings. Just remember that this is just an EXPERIMENT it won't be perfect, but anything that you do for the first time in most cases isn't perfect anyways. Everything can be improved upon, nothing is perfect. Everyone has thier own ways to do things and Michigan is just trying to improve FIRST in our own way. If the experiment doesn't work then everything will most likely go back to normal in 2010. And for the economy in Michigan: it sucks, sponsors are hard to come by these days here in Michigan. The banners at the top of this page are only $250.00 and most of the students struggle to find anyone interested and it's not about selling the program because most of them would have me convinced, even if I was not involved with FIRST. I was a student also when we first started the ads and it was tough finding a taker for only $250.00 and I can sell the program pretty well to most people. If the economy was rolling and doing pretty well and it wasn't so costly to do FIRST this probably would have never came up. I loved things the way they were and it will still take some convincing for me to be sold on the new direction, but I am willing to step back and give it a chance and everyone else should do the same instead of being critics.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

One thing to consider is not only about being able to complete your robot on time, its also about putting it together after you unpack your crate.
Teams who travel by ground have the luxury of carrying a greater no. of tools and accessories they need to bring to an event. Teams often roll their carts into the pit, whereas other teams are forced to put as much in their crate in order to alleviate what they have to carry on an airplane. This has caused us this season to take our arm apart. As much as it was a hastle this past season, we had no other choice. Our morning practice rounds were all shot because of it all of our events.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

There is no FTC events in New Hampshire either ... that being said, that does not preclude having a FTC team in New Hampshire.

I guess the question I have is:

With such great support for FRC, why can't Michigan have FTC for those that cannot afford FRC.

Again, create a tiered structure so that those that can afford/have support will have an FRC team while those who cannot afford/don't have support for an FRC team could have an FTC team.

I mean, Is there a law or ordinance against FTC in Michigan? or is it just that they all want to play in the big leagues even if they cannot afford it?

Again, I wish 'FIRST in Michigan' all the success and I hope the orgainizers have done their homework because the devil is always in the details.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Actually if you talk with a lot of schools the way they fund their sports programs is through ticket sales at their more popular sports (basketball and football typically). The budget is way bigger than most FRC teams. Think about the local football game. I was at a small school and tickets were $2 but there were at least 2000 people in the stands Friday night. They would get 5 home football games a season to rake in about $20k in tickets sales and this is for a school that only graduates 100 people a year. The $250-$500 donations are typically more in line with Little League where I am from (and I am from small town/small budget America). At some of these big HS, they must make a mint at a Friday Night game.

In the past 5 years we have done a lot of local regionals (GLR and Detroit are within 1 hour drive). The great thing about those are that the parents are able to come and support their kids at those events. When we go 2.5 to 4 hours away, only a dedicated few are able to arrive and support their children. These regionals have between 30 and 60 teams that I have been too. While the 60 team GLR is a sight to behold. Our students usually prefer West Michigan beacues it is slightly smaller, but electric with a full crowd.
================================================== ==
We will see how this turns out. My hope this that this works out well and that FIRST will end up adopting a structure that has district events and then 35 "Regionals Championships", and the state lines dissappear again. Since this is a pilot, it is like any other Pilot. Some rules and formatting are for testing, some rules and formatting are there to limit the possible negative effects should it go bad. The "State" limitation I hope is only to limit the pilot to a specific subset of FIRST. This allows for a large enough sample to see how it will work out with out risking FRC for the Majority.
================================================== =====
M.Krass, thank you for noting specific examples of quality differences. To be honest I noticed something was a little different, but couldn't put my finger on it. Overall though it was a really cool event (Malt1881-Thank you and the rest of the crew for a great event). I think this may be one of those examples of the 80/20 development rule that for 50% of the time an resource, you can have an 80% solution. You have to at least double your efforts (time, money, people...) in order to achieve that high level of polish. This rule holds true to many systems throughout the world. The question comes down to whether or not 80% is the best solution. Kelly Johnson of Lockeed Martin stressed this aspect in many of their development projects. Being in the auto-industry, and 80% car will get you at the bottom of every Consumer Report.
I have only been to a few off season events. I have enjoyed every one I have been to, but some more than others. I for one am very excited to give this a try.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

People are going on about the cost of the events. A lot of these costs are dictated by FIRST. We must use certain suppliers and meet certain requirements. I have suggested using other A/V companies to save money but we were told no. In other words, these events will not be the same as "official FRC" qualifying events. There are a lot of ways to save money but hands are tied. I have no issue with trying something new but why not let the regional events try and lower their costs. That said this has nothing to do with registration.

If Michigan teams get their first registration for $5,000.00 then the rest of FIRST should have the same benefit of lower costs. Everyone is talking about the high cost of events yet we will be subsidizing Michigan teams for their first event. Again the down side for Michigan teams is the increase for teams that want to go to Championships. They now have to pay extra to go to the State Championship, increasing their cost to $9,000.00 from the previous $6,000.00 but there is a greater chance of getting a "ticket" to allow them to pay for their Championship experience.

If there are all of these sponsors willing to donate to these extra events, what is stopping Michigan from having 1 or 2 more "Official Qualifying" regional events? There is no doubt in my mind that politics is playing a big part in this as you would think that VEX/FTC would have made a large impact in Michigan yet were barred.

Good luck Michigan, I hope for the best. I pray that this is not the beginning of the end to a great program in such a great State as Michigan.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Our team from Indiana, Team 2171, will miss coming to Michigan for the Regional next year. We loved competing at the West Michigan Regional and were fortunate enough to win it with Team 71 from Hammond Indiana and Team 2604 from Capac Michigan. We loved competing against the Michigan teams and really liked the University it was held at. We won a hard fought Championship Round against the Bees, the Semifinals against the More Martians who beat us in a match, and remembered the Foley Freeze as a great team.

When our team was picking an alliance at IRI, my daughter ended up choosing the Killer Bees, Foley Freeze, and More Martians as alliance partners.

My daughter is going to be a Senior this year. Michigan left such an impression on her that we are attending an open house this Saturday at Kettering University for future potential Freshman. She would like to consider this Michigan University.

She would not have been exposed to Kettering University if it had not been for our First experience in Michigan. Keeping out of state teams from competing in Michigan regionals will unfortunately limit the exposure to other potential college students.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

You have a smart daughter! My son attends Kettering and the atomosphere their is incredible for the kids. One of the biggest selling points is they have a dorm room to themselves or if they like they can open the doors between rooms for a suite.

Check out the Fuel Cell Development Program, The Wind Tunnel and The Crash Test Lab. It is a small but amazing school.

Have fun!!! :D

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Greg, you're right. High school gymnasiums is where FIRST started its competition structure. We didn't start out 'bright and shiny', but look where we are now. Maybe this step in a different direction is exactly what's needed to scale FRC the right way.

As my mom's always told me, 'you can't knock it 'til you try it.'
I'm going to see how this season goes before I start forming my opinon.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I wonder if the cost structure will backfire now that they must pay to attend a State championship AND the world Championship? Will schools allow their students to miss so much school? Can mentors and volunteers do that much more competitions just to get to Championship?
Since teams can pay their way to championship, wouldn't the ones that wanted to go in the past, just do so anyway?

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Well, to me this is a sad thing to see. No more MI regional open to IN teams. This pretty much leaves WI, MN, CHI, and Cleveland relatively close, and St. Louis not too far. IMHO the GLR was the best regional this past year in the midwest and its sad to see it not be open to all again.

Just my $0.02

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

To comment on finances:

Many of the details of the financing of this project are not open for public discussion but I can tell you this:

A: The rest of FRC is NOT subsidising Michigan. The money we have from our sponsors and our teams will easily fund all of the Michigan Events in 2009.

B: Our events will be professional and plenty of resources are guaranteed to ensure this. The only major change is that Michigan now has the ability to do our own sourcing for venues and production support instead of having FIRST do all this.

C: Why would depending upon donations for venues and support make FRC less sustainable? Today, we must recruit major sponsors to pay for the high cost venues we are renting. This amounts to the same thing, i.e. someone needs to give us something. Now we are just asking for less cash per event. This is much MORE sustainable.

D: Most of the comments on this thread and CD in general come from generally successful teams. You represent a strong vocal minority. Many people love to travel and meet teams from other areas, etc. This is great, However, the fact remains that MOST teams only can afford a single FRC event per season, and MOST teams never leave their home region. This change will have a major impact on such teams and they are the majority. In the future, travel will still be possible, but choices will be limited. Today, FIRST already limits your choices when they schedule the events (If Denver and Phoenix are the same weekend, you can't do both!). 10 years ago, we used to get teams from the East and West coasts coming to Michigan. This almost never happens anymore. Why not? Cause it's cheaper to stay home and now there are more events closer to everyone's home. Essentially, creating more events means teams will less travel.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I will be interested in the lessons learned from the Michigan structure re: volunteers for events. I’ve helped with events in Maryland the past 5 years (FRC/FLL/Vex/the off-season) and have been fortunate to work with !hundreds! of event volunteers. The recruitment, placement, training, and recognition are a lot of work, and I am always looking for ways to make this better for all.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Is it true, then, that team fees from Michigan teams in 2009 will go directly toward paying for Michigan events? If true, does that diverge from what I understand is the "norm" (and correct me if I am wrong) - that FRC team event fees do not directly support regionals, that instead they are used to pay for FIRST HQ "overhead"?

And if it is true that next year, Michigan team fees will be diverted toward the funding of Michigan team events, and given that there are well over a hundred Michigan FRC teams, would that not reduce by quite a bit the amount of money flowing to FIRST from Michigan to fund FIRST's "overhead"?

If all that I have asked to this point is true, then the last question I have is, will other FRC teams be asked/required to make up the difference via increased event fees, or will FIRST absorb this loss of "overhead" income such that other FRC teams aren't affected financially?

Just the facts, man. I'm just looking for the facts. If any or all of what I ask above is not the case, I gladly ask that someone who has definitive knowledge of the reality of this new system please communicate it to those of us who are not yet enlightened.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Repeat:

"Michigan is not being funded by the rest of the FIRST communitee."

Cash from Registration Fees will still go back to New Hampshire.
Fee structure for the State Championship is just like any other regional.

All that's really been done is figure out a way to turn 2 events into 7 for the same price.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Jim, I think what follows might be the math that people might be looking at, and why we might think that FIRST is going to get less revenue from Michigan teams. Maybe there is something I am missing, if so please feel free to correct it:

Scenario A (a "national" team):
2008: 2 Regionals plus Championship
2009: 2 districts plus State plus Championship

2008 Team Cost: 6000 + 4000 + 5000 = 15000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 + 4000 + 5000 = 14000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000 + 4000 + 5000 = 15000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 + 4000 + 5000 = 13000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)


Scenario B (a "state" team):
2008: 2 Regionals
2009: 2 districts plus State

2008 Team Cost: 6000 + 4000 = 10000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 + 4000 = 9000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000 + 4000 = 10000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 + 4000 = 8000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)


Scenario C (a "local" team):
2008: 1 Regional
2009: 2 districts

2008 Team Cost: 6000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 = 5000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Ken when you did these was KOP taking into consideration for 2008 money? I only say this because it is money you pay to first.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Yes, this is simply taking the numbers that were quoted in the Michigan tournament proposal and calculating what some example teams would pay. It includes the payment for KOP for both '08 and '09.

Ken

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

First, I think that the announcement should have been made much earlier, like last year, or the changes should be put off until 2010. Plans have been made. Grants have been written. We are going to have to scramble to accommodate the changes.

Second, although FIRST is knocking $1,000 off of the registration fees, this could end up costing our team a bit more than the traditional system. Our team is struggling financially. We will not be able to pay the fee to attend the State Championship which will be in our own back yard, but we will (apparently) have to travel to two other cities for district competitions.

• No one on our team owns a vehicle that can carry a crated robot, so we are going to incur expense to either ship it or rent something to carry it or pay someone to drive it.
• We will have to pay for a school bus to transport the team to and from events or parents will have to drive. (our school system does not give us free use of buses) The bus ride to Kettering Kick-off in 2007 cost us over $400 for one day.
• We definitely can't afford to stay overnight in whatever city it is, so we will have to drive back at night and return in the morning.

Two weekends of this will more than eat up the $1000 break in the entry fee.

I think the idea of smaller localized competitions has merit, but needs more work.

The idea of a team in every school is great too, if there are resources: There are now three FRC teams in Ypsilanti. I can't speak for the other two, but my team (on the eve of it's 10th season) is in totally desperate need of mentors and money. We have not had a major corporate sponsor since 2004 (not for lack of trying) and are only surviving by our own fundraising efforts and the kindness of ITT Tech and more recently Hyundai America, and mentoring by talented parents of former members. As others have said, it would be good if FIRST could help to strengthen the teams that exist.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Although I do agree with your statements about how this system may hurt some teams, and not to be rude, but have you actually asked the other teams in your area for help is attaining sponsors? I know for a fact that The Flyers (66) are in your area and that they are one of the kindest teams around. Give them a call if you haven't already and just ask. Take a stretch and even give a call to some other Michigan teams. They will help.


Take a look at all these teams...just hit ctrl F and search "MI"

http://usfirst.org/whatsgoingon.aspx

And please, let us know if you need help. Its what we're all here for. Do not take that quality of FIRST for granted.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I'd like to say, I entirely agree with you, and thank you for posting your thoughts so eloquently (as you certainly can state it better than I can).

As much as it'd be nice to have a FRC team in every highschool, I don't see it ever happening. According to google (I'm getting several different figures) there are 15,000-20,000 High Schools in America. I'd love to see the day where we have that many FIRST teams in the us alone, along with the district/state/world champion structure. But I just can't imagine the economy supporting that many teams.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Growth and sustainablity is all about controlling costs and increasing ROI. If you had asked someone back in 1992 if FIRST could expand into a league of 1600 teams by 2009, Most people would have said this would be impossible. However one person, Dean Kamen, would have insisted that it could be done. Through his vision, FIRST now has a foothold in about 10% of our schools. This is quite an achievement and we can do more. If you want to give up on this vision, fine, but many of us believe that it can be done. This pilot is simply a logic next step in the process.

Ken, All I can say on the numbers is "We're not going to discuss the details of the finances on ChiefDelphi." This deal was worked out over several months of negotiation between the Board of Directors of FIRST and the new Board of Directors of FIRSTinMichigan. Everyone involved is satisfied with the final deal. No one will be penalized by this initiative and no money from elsewhere will be used to fund any of the Michigan events or teams.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

We have good relationships with several other Michigan teams including The Flyers. We host many of the teams at the Ypsilanti Heritage Festival FIRST Demo every summer. Funding and the need for professional mentors are frequent topics of discussion whenever we are together, and no one from any team has ever given me the impression that they had either mentors or sponsors to spare. Team 470 has "loaned" mentors to another team to help them over a "hump" once, but not on a permanent basis. All the teams help each other as they can.

It would make sense for the Ypsilanti teams to combine transportation to wherever the district competitions are this year. That would reduce the cost to each team, and I'm certainly going to suggest it. Knowing where the district competitions will be and if we have a choice or will be assigned to certain ones would be very helpful. I hope the information is released soon.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Jim-

People will do the rough math - it does not matter what the details of the arrangement are, one can calculate what the range of revenues going to the different groups and get a similar conclusion each time. Its probably not realistic to expect that FRC people wont want to do a little math.

In the end this is an experiment that, regardless of outcome, will hopefully benefit all the teams, not just the Michigan teams. So people who don't agree with where/how the money is going may be willing to tolerate it.

It would have been great to have this discussion over the last several months. However, that did not happen and we are now in the situation where a "done deal" is presented to us. However, as you can read, its not quite "done," there are many details that need to be worked out, and the clock has been ticking. This communication medium and the people who live here are going to be a powerful force in making this successful. Its time to identify the issues, and ask for their ideas, participation, and help.

Ken

P.S. I use the word "live" figuratively - I KNOW people really don't live here, they are just visiting. From home. Where they live. Anyway, we need their ideas. :)

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

The only difference here is that the Great Lakes, West Michigan and Detroit regionals were all open for attendance by anyone not just Michigan teams. This is my opinon and not that of my entire team not fair at all. I realize that life is not fair however if my team enters an event we have a 1 in something like 5 chance in advancing to the championships this is far less then the opportunity for Michigan Teams. I also believe that if a Michigan Team pays $5,000 for the kit and two events, then a Non-Michigan team should pay $no more than $5,000 for the kit and one event, possibly less. I am still forming my opinion on this whole matter. However I do congratulate the Michigan teams for pulling off such a great accomplishment and truly changing the face of FIRST as we know it.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

As a past but not current mentor, I find this pilot very unfair. To everyone, teams in and out of Michigan.

No one can really debate that Michigan teams will have an incredible competitive advantage anytime they play at events outside of Michigan against the other 95% of all FIRST teams. If I am reading this thread right (lots of information, forigve me if I am off here), then
1. Michigan teams will be able to play 2 or 3 different weekends/events for $4 or $5 thousand dollars less than all other teams
2. Michigan teams will have more time to work on their robots because they will not have to ship them (at least on my old team, we could not really work on the ship day as we had to get everything crated and ready for Fedex to show up at any time).
3. Michigan teams get to keep their robots between events, on an honor system

I do not get # 3 - why is this needed for the pilot? There seem to be events on back to back weekends all over the country? If Michigan teams can pilot a keep your robot \\\\\\\"honor\\\\\\\" system, then why cant all teams. Are the rest of the teams not trustworthy enough?

# 1 bothers me the most. Why do Michigan teams need to get any discount? The gives them an extra $5,000 to enter another event, to build a practice robot, to buy a second control system, and so on - how does this lead to anything even close to an even playing field if they get to play against teams at other events and the championship who do not get those advantages?

Hasn\'t it been pointed out that registration fees don\'t even go to pay for the cost of local events? If so, then 95% of the teams are paying more this year to subsidize a discount for kits and events for 5% of the teams. How is this a good or fair thing?

Last, as I said, this is unfair to all teams, including Michigan teams. They are not asking for this advantage or different playing field, but they will not get full credit for anything they accomplish outside of Michigan because everyone will wonder if they would have done as well without the huge advantages. I do not get this at all - arent there lots of off season events around the country that do this sort of pilot every year? Why not do it in other states - why should only Michigan teams get to save THOUSANDS of dollars, not have to ship robots and get a competitive advantage? I know how hard all teams, students and mentors work to get to fundraise and get to events and I do not get why FIRST would put such an unfair and unbalanced pilot into the regular season. Either test it for everyone or do it in the off season.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Mary, everything you bring up has been gone over already.

I agree on the discount. However, it is only a $1000 discount from last year, and we don't know that all teams don't get it. They pay more if they make their state event.

Michigan teams have to put their robots in a bag and have a third party seal it. The bag can then only be unsealed at an event or during a single 8-hour window the week before a particular event.

Please read the thread and the attachments/links. FIRST has thought of most things and weighed risks and benefits by now. If there is an issue that isn't addressed here, in one of the attachments, or in one of the other threads, then it should probably be taken up with FIRST or FIRSTinMichigan.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Then I must have read something wrong - I thought it said they pay $1,000 less and get to play in TWO different events, tournaments, regionals, whatever you want to call them. Based on that, if a Michigan team plays in 2 Michigan discounted events and 1 regional somewhere else in weeks 1, 2 and 4 - then they would only have to pay around $9k. All other teams from Colorado, NY, CA, and so on, if they want to play weeks 1,2 and 4 - then they have to pay $14,000. Or if you just say 2 events in Michigan vs 2 regionals for other teams, it would be $5,000 versus $10,000.

That is why I said it is a huge financial savings to play in multiple events (not one). If I read that wrong and the $1,000 discount only gets them a kit and 1 single event entry, then thank you for correcting me, it is not as big an advantage. But if I read it right, then it is totally unfair for 95% of the teams to have to pay $5,000 more than other teams for a kit and two weekends of play. That is what I was all upset about, hopefully I was wrong.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

What you may not realize is that there is no discount. The registration for Michigan teams is being subsidized by FIRST in Michigan, with the help of their participating sponsors, venues, and volunteers. No, they are not making up the difference in cash for the registration fees, but rather they are assuming ALMOST ALL of costs and ALL the responsibilities that FIRST national would normally have to run the events. FIRST can thus afford to reduce the initial registration fee without it costing the rest of the nation/world one red cent. In fact, the rest of the teams will benefit because it frees up the FIRST national personnel and resources to grow and sustain the program in their areas.

Consider that Michigan events have never been propped up; we have always turned a profit; we have never relied on NASA grants to pay out of state teams to come here and fill our events; we’ve never had NASA grants go toward enabling our rookies to play here. But you’ve probably never heard us complain about our entry fees subsidizing new regionals in places where there weren’t enough teams to fill their events, and/or were way beyond practical places for most teams to go. We’ve been willing to sacrifice until now.

But now that they’ve had their beginning, it’s time for us to have our new begining. I don’t have the numbers for ’08, but in ’07 we fielded 105 teams. Of those 105 teams, 35 attended only one event. As you may have read here, their season ended just about the time they got up to speed. That is no longer acceptable!

There are many involved with FiM, and apparently many of you, who see the new structure leading to our sending the cream of the crop from our State Championship to The Championship in Atlanta. I warn them and you not to expect to see many new faces from Michigan in Atlanta. We send the cream of the crop every year as it is, as evidenced by our disproportionate share of Champions. In ’07 we sent 43 teams, which is way more than the 18 that will qualify this year, and way more, I expect, even when you add in the ones who qualify out of state. So, once again many will get there the old fashioned way. They will buy their way in. The same goes for our State Championship. It will need to draw about ½ of our teams, with 1/3 unable to afford more than the initial registration and maybe 1/6 deciding to go to Atlanta instead. IMO, the Cumulative Point System for Ranking and Advancement you see in the PDF has little meaning, all but a few (if not all) of the ones with the cash will get in.

This competition structure is not the beginning of the end that many are making it out to be. Not much will change. The out of state teams will still have all the places they can afford to play. Our UP teams will still have a drive ahead of them. We still won’t have the luster and professionalism they apparently enjoy elsewhere. Our rich and powerful will still dominate. What really matters for many of us is that dozens of our teams will finally be getting an ample return on the investment they put into the program. We wish the same for the entire community, and expect that our pilot will show them a way to make that happen.

But it will not happen for you, unless you make it happen, which won’t be by trying to rain on our parade. Ask not what FIRST in Michigan is getting that you are not; ask instead what you can do to earn the same for yourselves.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Jack, I've never posted here before, but you really pushed a button, so here goes.

Are you kidding? I didn't have a strong opinion on this either way, but now I do, it's unfair and wrong. Let me get this straight, according to you:

You have a problem with areas helped sponsorship and team grants from NASA, but not areas getting help from GM, Delphi and Board Members? Regions with help from NASA, BAE, Raytheon and others have it made, they don't deserve discounts or support? But somehow your state with years of support from big sponsors has it tougher and deserves special attention?

According to you Michigan teams deserve to finally get ample return for the high prices they pay in FIRST, but before the rest of the the teams around the country get a better return? Michigan teams already have the cream of the crop and dominate in FIRST, as you say, but at the same time you say Michigan teams need a better return on their $ than all other teams?

You say don't rain on your parade? What gives you and Michigan teams the right to have a parade that the rest of the community paying MORE to participate doesn't get to have? Seems it's all the teams OUTSIDE of Michigan that deserve a better return on their investment. You think 1/3 of your teams only getting to play once is unacceptable? How do you think that's any different for hundreds of teams around the country in other states? Why is it unacceptable for your teams but not everyone else?

My daughter does FLL here in St.Louis and my nephew is on an FRC team. The reason I think so highly of FIRST is because of our local volunteers and supporters, and all they do. They show us all that it's truly a community. But you say we shouldn't worry about one state getting a better deal than everyone else, that we should just do what you do, splinter off and only worry about our own? I hope most states don't feel the message of FIRST is to worry about themselves first and the good of community later. I hope most states want to find a solution for everyone at the same time instead of a "better return", "more plays" and an advantage for one state first.

I think FIRST is better than that, and I think this pilot is exactly what you have exposed it to be: a quest for one group to get a better return on their investment than all other areas, because according to you it's about time and you deserve it - as you clearly state. If this is to help teams who need a better return, then do this pilot in Alaska or Montana or somewhere that didn't have 3 events already.

I find your post to be hypocritical, arrogant and ignorant about what all teams around the country are facing (yours are no different and don't have it any tougher). Sorry to disagree with you so much, but I don't think you have a healthy respect for what all teams and regions in the country experience, all the hard work they dedicate and the better return on investment that they ALL deserve. Special treatment, huge discounts or experiments like this should be for all teams or no teams, other wise they shouldn't be on the same playing field.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I have been talking off line with some of the other posters here from Michigan. I will tell those reading that there has been a lot of background work done by Michigan teams. I applaud their efforts and wish them well at this venture BUT I would like to see one change made in the arrangements. I would like to see a provision in place that states that any Michigan team that competes at the State Championship be not eligible to qualify at any out of state regional. The reasoning behind this is that in previous years all teams could compete and qualify at any regional that they paid to attend. Now that there are 3 regionals that other teams are excluded from because of the elite nature of the Michigan trial, that limits the places teams can compete. As there are so many spots available at the Michigan Championship (same as 3 previous regionals last year) BUT no other teams are eligible to earn, I believe that to make things fair then the Michigan teams should not be able to qualify at any of the other regionals. This would only be fair if the Michigan team went to the Michigan Championship. If they skipped that event then they would be treated the same as any other team at any other event.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

People seem to have lost sight of the fact that this is a pilot. Of course you don't launch it everywhere at once. You have to see if it will work.

Mary mentioned that her child is in FLL. Perhaps you don't know that FLL got its start as a pilot program, in Michigan, 11 years ago. And that the FLL World Festival started as a pilot program the last year the championships were held at Disney. Look where it has evolved now.

And yes, the point of it is to get more competitions for less or the same money.

Maybe this will work, maybe it won't. But we won't know unless we try, will we?

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

[quote=Jack Jones;760790]What you may not realize is that there is no discount. The registration for Michigan teams is being subsidized by FIRST in Michigan, with the help of their participating sponsors, venues, and volunteers.QUOTE]

Thank you for answering my question, I somewhat expected that answer. With so many teams in one area, people are bound to have an impact on the area to make this happen for them. I congratulate FIRST Michigan on this accomplishment. However I still do not believe that it is right for a team to have a 1 in 18 chance to advance to the World Champinoships at 1 event, when all other teams only have a 1 in roughly 5 chance to advance at each event they go to.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

Let me see if I can help with the 1:whatever numbers. At a traditional regional there are 6 slots that qualify for the Championship (3 winners, 1 Chairmans, 1 Engineering Inspriation?, and the Rookie Allstar). This means that at a 30 team regional you have a 1:5 (although rookies are the only ones able to get the Rookie slot). At a 60 team regional you have a 1:10. Even if you go 2 60 team regionals, your chances would be 1:10 + 1:10 = 1:5. In Michigan There will be 18 slots for 105-120 teams, or slightly less than 1:5. These slots are for the 6 slots x the 3 previous regionals. In order to qualify for the Championship in MI, you either need to go through the State championship (paying essentially the same price as 2 traditional events), or do your district and then go pay and win at an out-of state event.

For 2009, I would be willing to bet that 18 teams from Michigan will earn a slot, and another 20 or so will buy open slots for the Championship. Most of the Michigan teams that go to the Championship already do 2-3 events. The extra time on field is not a big benefit them (but it is a benefit). The extra time on field is a big benefit to the teams that usually only do 1 regional, then pack up and maybe get to do an off-season, maybe they decide the $6k, 6 weeks of tortue for 20 minutes of competition isn't worth it. In this system they should at a minimum have an opportunity for 60minutes of competition.

As Gary said: remember folks it is only a PILOT. Regardless of the outcome it will be an excellent learning experience to help figure out whether certain theoretical "improvements" are are worth making a permanent change.

If it goes bad only a small subset of FIRST has a bad experience, and everyone goes back to the regular system.
If it goes good, only a small subset gets and advantage for one year, but everyone will have learned important lessons for the future, and may see benefits if the overall structure changes for the positive.
If it is somewhere in between, everyone will have learned important lessons for the future.
Why only 1 state: In any Pilot you need a big enough effort to make sure that you have a realistic test model, but you need a small enough effort not to accidentally take down the whole thing.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I guess my point did not come out correctly let me try again. The three regionals that were previously in Michigan that had 15 combined awards were open to all teams in attendance. Now those 15 awards are only for MI teams.

"your chances would be 1:10 + 1:10 = 1:5. In Michigan There will be 18 slots for 105-120 teams, or slightly less than 1:5."

This statement is only true if MI teams stay in MI and do not compete in other regional events. Which I am sure will not be the case.

By the way I have no problem with MI teams GO B.O.B.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I appreciate this concern. This would be in line with the point that Steve W was making.

If a team wants to qualify in state they will need to do well at 1 or both districts and then do well at State. With 3 weekends taken up, I have a hard time believing that many teams that would not qualify through those means would then also head out of State to take one of those slots. (not impossible, but not probable in my opinion).

There are 2 more probable scenarios:
#1 likely scenario would be an outskirts MI team doing 1 district and the paying to do a second regional. Since the district alone won't qualify them for the Championship, then their odds would be back to the 1:5-1:10 of attending a regional (30 - 60 teams).

#2 likely scenario would be a team does the 2 districts, qualifies for State, does the State Championship, but does not qualify for the Championship. This team has the money for another event and decides to buy one of the open Championship slots. I know that if I had the money to do 3-4 events I would buy a Championship slot rather than doing an additional regional.

I can't speak for all teams, but those seem to be the logical choices. As long as there are plenty of available slots to "purchase" for the Championship, I don't think teams will try for 5 events in a single season. Last season there were several teams that did 3 events (2 reg. 1 champ), and few that did 4 (3 reg. 1 champ.). I don't think I have ever heard of a team doing 5 (4 reg. and 1 champ.). While technically not impossible, it would be very tough.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

If I were a MI team and we have our teams usual budget of 10k for two entry fees, I would register for two district events and The Championship and not go to the state championship.

In fact I wish I had that option. Two events and The Championship for 10k would be a lot more bang for my buck than what I get for 10k as a non-Michigan team.

Re: New FIRST competition structure in Michigan
 

I have read most of this thread, but skimmed a lot too. I have had many conversations with some of you on this subject. I told myself I wasn't going to post, but I just can't help it.

I see a lot of you are complaining that it is not fair. Well, I have a proposal that may satisfy you. If it doesn't satisfy you, then it will at least shut you up. Please do not get me wrong, those of you giving constructive criticism are doing what most people who care about FIRST do, but the rest of you simply complaining that it is not fair? C'mon, let the thing play out one year and see if it goes somewhere.

Anyway, here is my proposal and I will propose it in more detail to the powers that be:

1. Any non-Michigan team that wants to participate in this pilot can do so if they declare that they are a Michigan team for 2009.

2. What this means is that you must follow all of the same rules as Michigan teams.

3. During initial registration you must register at a Michigan district event, just like other Michigan teams. You must follow all the other rules as laid out in the Michigan Pilot Plan.

There it is. Now, how many of you would actually ask to participate if it was open to you?

Paul