Originally Posted by M. Krass (Post 759398)

I expressed some concern about the quality of an event run with a smaller budget last year with respect to the Kettering Rookie event, another pilot program in Michigan.

While I can't speak for communication through other channels, there has been remarkably little discussion here about that event. There appear to be few photos from the event in CD-Media and what discussion I've found seems to focus heavily on the benefit of the program to rookie teams and not at all on the quality of the experience when compared to that provided by other regional events.

As a pilot, the implication is that this structure may be implemented elsewhere in the future. Why, then, has there been little information about the organization of this pilot -- and the success of last year's pilot -- presented to FIRST volunteers in other parts of the country? Again, maybe that information is available through other channels, but this is the first that many have heard of this.

A lot about this is being kept close to the vest and that makes me uneasy.

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 759505)

The analogy I'd make is that our current regional events are our version of MLB/NFL/NBA games, etc.

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag (Post 759529)

One of the fundamental problems with Thursday in the current format is that for many, Thursday is not Practice Day, Thursday is Rework Day. Many teams show up and tear their machine apart. They do not go out to practice and instead they spend the whole day wrenching. Why do they do this?...because they can. Now, teams are going to have to put more priority being ready to play when they show up beacuse the whole idea of "we'll fix it on Thursday when we get there" will no longer be an easy choice. Teams will still have this same amount of time to rework if they want, but now they are doing it on their own time. In reality, this will likely make the inspection process easier, not harder.

Originally Posted by johnr (Post 759535)

I would hope that the powers that be would see that a waiver of some kind needs to be in place for teams in the U.P. This is a test program and i see no need to make every team take part. However, if you take waiver you might not be able to play in states.
Also, Thursday is abit of a concern. One thought would be that a teams near the district, with good practice fields, would offer its use. Maybe with a small fee. That first friday could be ugly.

Originally Posted by IKE (Post 759526)

I participated in the Thursday portion of the Kettering Rookie Regional. I also saw the review of the Pilot event and heard a lot of comments.

As M. Krass keeps pointing out, there was not a lot of feedback on CD about the event. This is for a couple of reasons.

As a pilot event for Rookies only, there was not a lot published to vetran teams.
Since Rookies were the ones competing, they would be the normal traffic on CD, but most Rookies do not figure out CD until late in their first year.

As a team that attends multiple regionals, I really liked the thursday night check in format. With it a reasonable drive (1 hour), I didn't have to take time off of work (this is huge for me as a volunteer). Pits were open late that night and they got a lot of machines inspected and ready to go that night including machines that were 30+ pounds overweight. Last I heard only 1 machine out of the 30+ teams were non-functional at the end of the event (there are often that many at a traditional regional). With the MI FIRST format, this team would get 1 more chance to get their machine going. The traditional format has them packing up and likely folding up after their first year.
As far as quality of the event goes, it was really quite good. I will talk to the organizers to see if they can put the Rookie Regional Wrap Up on CD so people can judge for themselves. People should keep in mind that the difference in "quality" isn't as big as they might expect.
As far as Michigan not being able to fit in the current model, there were 3 regionals with 140 total slots for 120 michigan teams (and out of state teams). If every team went to 1 michigan event that meant there were only 20 slots open for a second event. That means a lot of teams had to go out of state for a second event. As people have pointed out travling out of state costs at least 2x as much as local events thus requiring a significantly larger budget and time off of work (or only the competition team getting to travel).
I like the quality vs. quantity debate, but lets attach some numbers. If 120 teams get to experience an event rated at a 9 (scale of 1-10), or for the same price they get to experience 2 events rated at a 7, isn't that better? Or for teams that do two events, 2*9 versus 2*7+9(The state championship will be a 9) 18<23.

Originally Posted by dtengineering (Post 759561)

I've been pondering the issue of tech inspection in this format for a bit and think there may be a solution. There is no technical reason that inspection MUST take place at an event... if tech inspectors are willing to volunteer their time in the evenings in the week leading up to an event, they could travel to a team's workshop, unseal the robot storage bag, complete a tech inspection and re-seal the bag. Then the team could use their 8 hour "fix it" window to make any neccesary changes and go through a quick re-inspection at the event. Yes, this would mean that tech inspectors would have to drive about the state, carrying a robot weigh scale with them, but in a state with a high density of teams and sufficient volunteers to handle 7 district events, this shouldn't be the same problem that would exist in other areas.

Alternatively there could be a district tech inspection on the Saturday... or a weekday evening... preceeding the event. The important part is that teams have a chance to correct any errors, and inspectors have sufficient time to complete a thorough, high quality inspection.

Jason

Originally Posted by FoXy92 (Post 759564)

One thing I haven't picked up out of the discussion here is how Michigan teams are going to qualify for Atlanta. Do you go for winning districts? States? How/Where will Chairman's be awarded? Etc. If anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag (Post 759513)

To comment on a few more items:

A: The rookie pilot run at Kettering last year proved we can run a very high quality FIRST event for a fraction of the cost of typical regional event.

B: Item A is not exactly anything new, since very good off season events have been running for over a decade in many locations. Most of these events operate at 10% or less than the operating cost of a typcial FIRST Regional.

C: We have the money to run 8 events in Michigan next year if we do it this way. Financing will not be an issue.

D: We have the venues to for the events and we have many qualified volunteers and veterans to help get this going.

E: We have an estimated 120-130 teams in the State of Mich next year. This means if you compete at 2 events, there is probably no more overlap on team particapation than there was in 2008 if you did any two of GLR, WMR, DET, Cleveland, Chicago, Boiler, etc. The only reason overlay may increase is because now EVERYONE plays twice. If we enabled double plays for everyone thru any other means, the overlap issue would be the same as it will be in the new system.

F: If anyone want to go out of state, it costs the same as always. Now you get a 2 for 1 deal if you stay in state, but if you want to skip one and spend your money to go somewhere else, go for it. Your loss for throwing away a freebie, but it will not cost any more to do this than it ever did in the past.

G: Remember, Nothing will ever get better without making changes and taking some risks. We all want FIRST to get better. "Better" means lower cost, more sustainable, more accessable, more visible, etc. This change is a big enabler to all this things.

FRC today is profoundly different than FRC was in 1992. The league is over 60x its original size yet we are still using a competition structure designed when the league was small. Many have argued for a long time that we have outgrown this model. In 2009 we will finally test a new model and find out if this is true. We will never know if we do not try!

Originally Posted by tawnos23 (Post 759569)

Pros:

Multiple Events!!! - This would be a first for my team. We have never been able to raise the money to go to multiple events.

No Shipping - For those local teams who remember shipping was terrible this year, with our UPS (or Fedex I don't actually remember) calling us at the end of the last day of build season saying they wouldn't be able to pick up our robot on time.

Cons:

No Practice Day - For Team 240, and I'm sure many others, practice day is the first time our robot sets its wheels on the field. Without a practice day it will be very difficult to implement a good autonomous/hybrid mode.

Additional Cost for Michigan Championship - Even if our team made it to the Michigan Championship, I'm not sure we would be able to raise the funds to compete in it.

Overall:

I like the idea. I think its going to give us more time to compete with our robot while still keeping costs down. And as mentioned, its a pilot, if it doesn't work FIRST can kill it. If it does work, however, I can see this moving on to all of FIRST.

Originally Posted by FoXy92 (Post 759564)

One thing I haven't picked up out of the discussion here is how Michigan teams are going to qualify for Atlanta. Do you go for winning districts? States? How/Where will Chairman's be awarded? Etc. If anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.

I have mixed feelings at this point. This could either be the future of FIRST, or... unsuccessful. But hey, that's why this is a pilot right? We're bound to learn something from it, so it can't be all bad. :D