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-   -   pic: Jaguar next to Victor (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68745)

ajlapp 07-08-2008 14:10

pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 

Jonathan Norris 07-08-2008 14:12

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
these things are big... fitting 8 of them on a robot is going to take up a lot more space then 8 victors. Seems like the whole control system is growing for next year. the fighting between mechanical and electrical for space on the robot will get even more intense. Watch out for flying batteries :ahh:!

Travis Hoffman 07-08-2008 14:21

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris (Post 760650)
Seems like the whole control system is growing for next year. the fighting between mechanical and electrical for space on the robot will get even more intense. Watch out for flying batteries :ahh:!

If memory serves, I recall a Canadian team mounting their battery as a counterweight on their arm at the Canadian Regional many moons ago. I believe this was permitted by inspection, and they competed with this configuration.

Don't call it a comeback....:yikes:

gorrilla 07-08-2008 14:25

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
itssss HUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGEEEEE

Jonathan Norris 07-08-2008 14:30

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman (Post 760651)
If memory serves, I recall a Canadian team mounting their battery as a counterweight on their arm at the Canadian Regional many moons ago. I believe this was permitted by inspection, and they competed with this configuration.

Don't call it a comeback....:yikes:

I actually wouldn't but surprised if a team has done that before. But I've had the head of my electrical team throw a battery across the shop after the mech team decided to move it for the 4th time.. in a weak... planning more space for electronics will be important this year.

sdcantrell56 07-08-2008 14:39

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Electronics boards are going to get a lot more interesting. I'm expecting to see a lot more vertically oriented layouts this coming year.

Elgin Clock 07-08-2008 15:01

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
I hope the folks writing the manual are reading this, & seeing our concerns in the size/weight difference being placed upon us with the introduction of the new control system.

I'm sure they realized this already, but if not, then right here in this post, I am officially documenting the first call to the GDC/Game & Robot potion of the 2009 Manual writing crew to boost up size & weight requirements for next year.
Not by much, but just a little bit.
I don't want to see double sized bots, but an extra few inches & pounds would be greatly appreciated!

Please? :)

(Btw, anyone know a weight difference between just 1 Victor vs. 1 Jaguar?)

AdamHeard 07-08-2008 15:11

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock (Post 760673)
I hope the folks writing the manual are reading this, & seeing our concerns in the size/weight difference being placed upon us with the introduction of the new control system.

I'm sure they realized this already, but if not, then right here in this post, I am officially documenting the first call to the GDC/Game & Robot potion of the 2009 Manual writing crew to boost up size & weight requirements for next year.
Not by much, but just a little bit.
I don't want to see double sized bots, but an extra few inches & pounds would be greatly appreciated!

Please? :)

(Btw, anyone know a weight difference between just 1 Victor vs. 1 Jaguar?)

The weight difference is also what I'm really interested in. Even an increase of just 2 ounces (which looks like they easily did) increases the average robot weight about a pound (8 victors average?).

Rosiebotboss 07-08-2008 15:26

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock (Post 760673)
I hope the folks writing the manual are reading this, & seeing our concerns in the size/weight difference being placed upon us with the introduction of the new control system.

I'm sure they realized this already, but if not, then right here in this post, I am officially documenting the first call to the GDC/Game & Robot potion of the 2009 Manual writing crew to boost up size & weight requirements for next year.
Not by much, but just a little bit.
I don't want to see double sized bots, but an extra few inches & pounds would be greatly appreciated!

Please? :)

(Btw, anyone know a weight difference between just 1 Victor vs. 1 Jaguar?)

The problem with increasing size and weight restrictions is that OSHA regs will get exceeded for safely picking up an object by 2 people and also the size of it is pretty much standard for moving through a door.

Travis Hoffman 07-08-2008 15:32

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss (Post 760685)
The problem with increasing size and weight restrictions is that OSHA regs will get exceeded for safely picking up an object by 2 people and also the size of it is pretty much standard for moving through a door.


Just make the drive base taller to fit your new hardware - no more compact, elegant designs - BOX BOTS FOR EVERYONE!

acdcfan259 07-08-2008 15:41

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
The footprint of the Victor looks like it could fit over the fan part on the Jaguar.

Alan Anderson 07-08-2008 15:58

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Instead of fitting the control system into the robot, it might become more of a priority to fit the robot around the control system. And with the expectation that teams should reuse their controller from year to year, mounting these things is likely to get radically different anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman (Post 760686)
Just make the drive base taller to fit your new hardware - no more compact, elegant designs - BOX BOTS FOR EVERYONE!

You think maybe the GDC should tweak the bumper design next year to use six parallel pool noodles instead of two?

JesseK 07-08-2008 15:59

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Whatever the size and weight, we'll survive. I for one will consider the Jaguar a victory if it works consistently without having to nail polish the PWM cable in.

artdutra04 07-08-2008 17:07

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
In other news, this will be the year of legitimate OMG XBOX HUGE!!1! jokes.

What I am most concerned about though, is why they apparently wasted so much time making an eye-candy case when they could have devoted that time to instead making it smaller. (Whether or not the case is square and boxy or more streamlined than a 1950s toaster makes no difference on its performance.) I would rather give up all the whiz-bang features of the Jaguar in all but a limited number of applications for the more practical, space-saving features of the Victors.

ChuckDickerson 07-08-2008 17:31

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 760709)
What I am most concerned about though, is why they apparently wasted so much time making an eye-candy case when they could have devoted that time to instead making it smaller. (Whether or not the case is square and boxy or more streamlined than a 1950s toaster makes no difference on its performance.)

Maybe the case/shell is designed as a cover to keep all those metal shavings out and the magic smoke in??? :confused: Maybe we will be allowed to remove the outer case for space saving reasons if we want to but under the "user beware" sort of rule.


Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 760709)
I would rather give up all the whiz-bang features of the Jaguar in all but a limited number of applications for the more practical, space-saving features of the Victors.

Maybe that is the plan. Who at FIRST has said officially that the old Victors are either our or in next year? Maybe we will be given the Victors as always but if you want to use these new heavier/larger/etc. Jaguars because you want to take advantage of the extra features you will be allowed to? Maybe we will be "given" 2 of each in the KoP instead of all of one or the other. Nobody but FIRST knows at this point.

I think we should all just wait and see what happens between now an January. FIRST teams have a pretty good history of doing some amazing things within the limits they are given to work with. Whatever happens with the whole new control system including these new speed controllers will just be part of the limits we are given to work with. I suspect the pros will outweigh the cons but only time will tell.

Akash Rastogi 07-08-2008 18:15

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
I've seen pretty unique ways of mounting electronics this year such as creating hidden cavities for different parts or having systems mounted higher up on frames. It just presents another challenge that teams should be able to hurdle over pretty easily.

EG of cool electronics mount: team 1323

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/30011

Alan Anderson 07-08-2008 18:58

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 760709)
What I am most concerned about though, is why they apparently wasted so much time making an eye-candy case when they could have devoted that time to instead making it smaller...

I'd have been happier if it had been made to fit on a DIN rail. This blobular design doesn't seem to take compact layout into consideration. Having connections on three sides won't make it easy to fit them closely.

pacoliketaco 07-08-2008 21:18

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
in my opinion, the jaguar just doesn't look as nice as the victors. im sure that along with all other electronics this year, it will be much more accurate, so i guess that is a good thing. the size of this control system is really starting to worry me...
looking at the picture, it seems like we are getting new joysticks!

Eugene Fang 07-08-2008 21:47

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pacoliketaco (Post 760741)
in my opinion, the jaguar just doesn't look as nice as the victors. im sure that along with all other electronics this year, it will be much more accurate, so i guess that is a good thing. the size of this control system is really starting to worry me...
looking at the picture, it seems like we are getting new joysticks!

That looks like the $19.99 joystick found here http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/ga...icks/&cl=us,en

R.C. 07-08-2008 21:48

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lilstogi11 (Post 760719)
I've seen pretty unique ways of mounting electronics this year such as creating hidden cavities for different parts or having systems mounted higher up on frames. It just presents another challenge that teams should be able to hurdle over pretty easily.

EG of cool electronics mount: team 1323

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/30011

Thanks for the compliment, we are planning to do the same this year and hopefully making it a tad bigger. To shield the electronics all you have to do is put a cover on it and zip tie it somewhere.

Herodotus 07-08-2008 23:05

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Our electrician this past year fit all of the electronics into slightly less than a square foot of space. Definitely will not happen next year. :p Really though, I hope that FIRST will simply allow us more options next year. Allow people to use either these new ones or the old victors.

Also, I don't know if this has been posted anywhere, but is there a price on these yet? Victors can be expensive enough. I can't see these being cheaper.

roboticWanderor 07-08-2008 23:41

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Honestly, I really like the use of these new speed controllers, along with the rest of the new control system. why?
- Requires no extra wiring of the fan, eliminating the risk that it will overheat due to bad crimps.
- If you notice, the mounting holes are symmetrical allowing them to be mounted back to back on either side of a surface, taking the space vertical instead of horizontal, something that the victors did not do.
- The built in limit switch control, as well as the promise for more possibilities in the future, such as CAM and integrated PID loops make this a simple solution for teams with low programming resources

That is just the new jaguar speed controller. The hardware of the new control and electronics system also provides a lot more benefits such as:

- The new breaker board unifies the breaker panels and distribution blocks into one board, with significantly better terminals than previous distribution blocks.
- One of the cRIO modules allows for high voltage digital I/O, in other words: replaces the need for a array of spikes to actuate pneumatic solenoids, in one simple module on the controller.
a separate "digital sidecar" plugged into a cRIO module serves as the lower voltage digital IO hub, centralizing all of your PWM cables away from the controller, allowing for the quick removal of the controller without worrying about rewiring. also, this hub can be placed closer to your speed controllers and other I/O as to limit the mess of PWM cables on the robot.
- All of the new electronics components are significantly more rugged, and designed for the life of a FIRST robot, not another application.

does not get you giddy about the benefits of the new system?
**As for the space consumption involved, yes the parts are bigger, but with a little creativity, some engineering and some skill, i know we can work around it, it's simply another design constraint, we're good at those, right?

R.C. 07-08-2008 23:43

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roboticWanderor (Post 760773)
Honestly, I really like the use of these new speed controllers, along with the rest of the new control system. why?
- Requires no extra wiring of the fan, eliminating the risk that it will overheat due to bad crimps.
- If you notice, the mounting holes are symmetrical allowing them to be mounted back to back on either side of a surface, taking the space vertical instead of horizontal, something that the victors did not do.
- The built in limit switch control, as well as the promise for more possibilities in the future, such as CAM and integrated PID loops make this a simple solution for teams with low programming resources

That is just the new jaguar speed controller. The hardware of the new control and electronics system also provides a lot more benefits such as:

- The new breaker board unifies the breaker panels and distribution blocks into one board, with significantly better terminals than previous distribution blocks.
- One of the cRIO modules allows for high voltage digital I/O, in other words: replaces the need for a array of spikes to actuate pneumatic solenoids, in one simple module on the controller.
a separate "digital sidecar" plugged into a cRIO module serves as the lower voltage digital IO hub, centralizing all of your PWM cables away from the controller, allowing for the quick removal of the controller without worrying about rewiring. also, this hub can be placed closer to your speed controllers and other I/O as to limit the mess of PWM cables on the robot.
- All of the new electronics components are significantly more rugged, and designed for the life of a FIRST robot, not another application.

does not get you giddy about the benefits of the new system?

agreed!

yarb65 07-08-2008 23:52

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
There was talk in this thread about flying batteries. Happened to us,1662, in 06.

samir13k 09-08-2008 14:42

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
I'm scared!

Our mechanical team is not going to be too happy about this!

I wonder if you are allowed to have two seperated electrical panels? One for Jaguars, and the other for the rest!

ATannahill 10-08-2008 15:22

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
you can, we split our victors and spike for overdrive.

R.C. 10-08-2008 17:56

Re: pic: Jaguar next to Victor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rtfgnow (Post 761075)
you can, we split our victors and spike for overdrive.

So did 233.


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