[FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

So what do the people who have seen the game think? My first reaction was that it is ok, but there are some things I really don't like much:

- Hockey Pucks are ok, kind of depends on how much FIRST charges us for a set, I hope it's not too expense to get a full set of game pucks.
- the field size didn't change from the vex fields, so that's good. But does anyone know how much a field costs or where we get it from?
- the inside of the field worries me. The different square sections of different materials in the four quadrants of the field are all short and don't seem that difficult, but it seems like there is a huge amount of construction time and cost required to build this field. I assume FIRST will be selling the field structures and goals, but does anyone know how much it is and where we get it?
- I don't understand having 1 team on each alliance starting on the field and 1 team on each alliance starting on a platform off the field floor in autonomous. I'm not sure how they decide which team starts where, but my guess is that most teams are going to want to start on the floor.
- I get that the sqaure, triangle, circle center goal structure is for the FIRST logo, but it sure seems like that is forced into the game. I hope it doesn't make it too hard or expensive to buy or build.
- those are my first thoughts. I might like it more after we review it on Monday, but right now I'm a little disappointed. It thought it would be a little more challenging with the new kits but also a little cheaper to do, but it looks like this might cost us a lot of money to play.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

This game (if this info is real) isn't impressing me at all. But the real problem is the fact that the Tetrix building system didn't give FIRST or FTC the opportunity to make a really neat diverse game like umm... I duno: Quad Quandary.

This game shows the decline of FTC due to this Lego power hungry move. It is what it is: disappointing.

-Smith

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Dude, the game looks awesome! I can't wait to start brainstorming with my team.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

as i see you can go up onto your opponents ramp to get the 10 point bonus twice, also <SG4> is a bit confusing whecoupled with the fact that a puck can be scored twice once in autonomous, once in teleoperated?

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I like the game, and I think it will be quite a challenge,

Love the unloaders, the ground traps should be interesting (there a little small), and the robot drop platform is cool.

But I have a few small gripes so far,

Pucks and rings are too similar, and the field looks some what difficult to build.

Besides these I think its going to be a great game.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Very disappointing.

The game itself, has some neat elements but the point is I don't see anything there that VEX couldn't do. FIRST promised us these kits would change the face of the competition, but I don't really see that here.

Last year was our rookie year, and this year we took a financial gamble on the new FTC kit and the promise that nothing other than the base kit would be required. But there's no way we're even going to come close to being able to duplicate the field on our own. It's like they decided to randomly throw stuff onto the field without thinking of the teams that have to build the elements. Is a platform/ramp cool? Well sure. Can our team build one, and know how to match the same dynamics/weight characteristics of theirs? No. Can we afford to buy a FIRST-supplied one? No. So that leaves us with hockey pucks to play around with. Woowee.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Not so much bad, as could be a lot better. Just dosen't feel unique enough. The racks make the acquisition of the puck shape kind of a non-challenge, as a bin approach is as easy or easier than individual object manipulation. As I said in the other thread, the "capture and trap all of your opponent's gamepieces" strategy seems a bit too easy compared to scoring. I'm not a big fan of one central scoring structure, as it allows one robot to effectively defend the whole thing.

The endgame, however, is very unique, although possibly a bit damaging to the robots, if they fall. Longer autonomous is always nice to see, although I'm not sure that 30 seconds is completly necissary for the tasks avalible autonomously. I think that there may be problems determining if autonomous gamepieces are scored at the end of the match.

FIRST still hasn't shown me a clear-cut reason for ditching VEX. We will be playing Elevation this year, mostly due to cost issues. We just don't have the resources to "creativly use our lexan and aluminum" by any standard, or pay for all the inflated costs of the Tetrix set compared to VEX. And, although I'm sure more advanced parts are on the drawing board, VEX simply allows us to do more than Tetrix, as of now.

I hope FIRST made the right decision here...

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Be sure to stay in touch with your FTC APs. They can carry your improvement suggestions to FIRST HQ.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I like it and I hope the 6 teams that I (and MORT) will be mentoring will enjoy it as well. See you all on the field:cool:

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

You've got some options here:
a) Link up with any other FTC teams in the area and go in on field components together.
b) FIRST will put out drawings for the field; for Quad Quandary, the field elements beyond the barrier ran a couple hundred dollars. You can probably get away with a partial field if it's just your team. I'm not saying it'll be free, but it shouldn't run you a bajillion-million dollars.
c) You've got the drawings for the field (or should get them soon). From there, you can figure out where your arm needs to be. If you don't know the forces required on some official field element, there's always Q&A.

I'd advise you to look up some of the FRC robots from 2004; ComBBAT and the FemBots come to mind. They used large hoppers to hold all of the balls that dropped from above that year, and both were a little clunky at getting them back out.

I'm going to make a bold prediction here: against competent opponents, no alliance is going to be able to trap every single opposing puck. The racks are just too far apart for any team to be able to hit them all. At most, I'm predicting that an alliance could trap two racks, one per robot.

I'm not sold on the defense options you lay out. You've got 18" robots going around a cylinder that's 24" inches diameter and thus 75" circumference--over six feet around. I'm not sure how fast you can get a new-kit robot to go, but I'm betting you'd want a second robot to achieve ideal coverage. Hope you've got all the pucks you're gonna score by then, because I'm willing to bet that the other alliances will be glad to take that time to whisk away your pucks.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Personally, I think this game is quite similar to the previous year's, though of course it'll still be a nice challenge.

My primary concern is with the field. I think it'll be hard to build the springboard that is used to get onto the field as well as other field elements. Are they going to be selling all of this?

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Even if they don't sell you a whole kit, they have historically given the exact part numbers along with the source. They know there have to be dozens of fields made to hold tournaments, so they tend to shy away from unobtanium.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I just hope the field parts are reasonably easy to build/obtain without FIRST's help. The reason?

Last year we bought a field and didn't recieve the parts until the night before our first competition. One of the many reasons why we spectacularly failed that day. :D

But otherwise, I'm looking forward to this game. Yeah, it is similar to QQ but it's different in enough aspects that it's going to be a radically different game, and there's plenty of good defensive options if you look hard enough. (Hint: it's not just grabbing your opponent's pucks, it's what you do with them...;) )

Also, big hoppers are going to be great, but being able to pick pucks off the floor reasonably fast and distinguish their color is key. If you can't do that, all the other alliance has to do is spill your racks to destroy you.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

O.k. It's time for Cody to dish out a long tedious post here.

First, lets look at the cooperate structure here. The first thing the "animation" showed us was this epic looking and big history of FTC portrayed as if VEX and IFI was never ever a part of FTC. Vex wasn't even mentioned! It also portrayed FTC as if it was some god child of FRC (which may be true). And then they went on to explain why this new FTC is a perfect mix of FLL and FRC.

Just like I said this is a new FTC, not the old FTC. So I'm going to name it something else, welcome to the FIRST Tech Lego Challenge. Or FTLC.

FTLC features a perfect mix of FLL and FRC from a game field that is almost impossible for every team to build to a budget that is impossible for everyone to afford to cute little Lego's that the little kids can identify with.

Some FRC elements include the four large motors that are symbolic to the four SIM motors FRC is allowed. The ability to cut aluminum and polycarbonate also shows how FTLC is just like FRC!

Some FLL element include LEGOS! Yay, we like Legos!!! They even gave us a little Lego man, isn't he cool!?! Let's put him on the bot because we can, he's part of the $900 dollar kit our director broke his back to buy us! Yays!!! Legos...

What FIRST did was to kill FTC as we knew it and to invent FTLC. The good old FTC is still here, it just got renamed to VRC with good old IFI who have been royally slapped in the face by either Lego or FIRST, I really can't tell.

Now if your coming from FLL you probably love this more than anything because it's a 500% beefed up version of what you were already doing. However if your were on FTC/FRC then you probably liked the fact that Vex allowed you to do more complicated stuff than FRC while you got more hands on time, a long build time and a more dynamic competition.

If that's the case then your on the short end of the stick and will either suck it up and do FTLC or beg your director to start a VRC team.

-----------------------------

NOW, the issue of the game. Welcome to the first, FIRST Tech Lego Challenge game: Face-Off (Oooo... "scary" title). This game is as wacky as the many FLL games but lacks the hidden political views of FLL with the simple sports like game elements the FRC games use.

Thats it! Go play (once your motor controllers from HiTonics decide to show up)...

You can love me or hate me, this is nothing more than my view. I dono about all of you guys but I'll be at both VRC and FTLC. I'll just enjoy one more than the other.

-Smith

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

My biggest complaint after having seen the video is the fact that puck acquisition is completely one-sided, it's all based on having a knocker, or having a grabber, and like someone said, making it way too easy to horde the opponent's stuff. Not to mention I dislike the fact that ALL scoring revolves around the center.

Edit: Oh yes, and as a referee, how do you track the exact puck scored during autonomous to see if it gets double at the end?

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Well there is a usual pause from autonomous to controlled mode, the referees can make sure then.

Edit: There is no extra points for scoring during autonomous.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

what you do is take the score after autonomous, and then add it to the score after teleoperated

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

As I read the rules, a puck can score twice, but not double. Once at the end of auto, and once again at the end of tele. If it's not there at the end of tele, it doesn't score a second time.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

The difference I see there is that the preferred strategy in FIRST Frenzy with a giant hopper would be to then force them out the bottom of the robot, relativly few at a time, into the human load chute (or whatever it was called.) With this, simply flipping your hopper onto the goal seems ideal.


I agree that it would be a stretch for every single puck to be captured on a regular basis, but I still think that this will hamper the game in more ways than one. First, it contributes to the issue I pointed out earlier, if good teams are capturing and scoring with an entire rack at once, pucks are already running out fast. The ability to descore from the circle and triangle may be more important than anyone thinks. Also, I just don't really like the concept of the strategy. Just feels like its more a way to win a competition than get inspired about science and technology. But that's just me.

Once again, I don't think that this will happen on a regular basis. However, the central scoring structure, by nature, creates traffic jams, and a skilled driver should be able to hold off at least one, and possibly two offensive robots, particularly if they are approaching from the same side.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Hmmm - A story comes to mind.

Once upon a time, in the Hangin'-A-Round World Championships, I saw a team use a robot with a well-built arm to cleanly and deftly pluck a softball out of the hopper of an opponent's bot.

There was no entanglement or other inappropriate occurrence during the well-executed maneuver.

I whooped out loud, and spent the next 5 minutes with a big grin on my face. If I had been a judge....

Blake

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Does any one have more information on the street hockey puck, such as manufacturer, cost, there are several different styles when searching on line.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Not positive but I think they resemble these

Good luck to all this season. Me and my teams are looking forward to our Face Off.:cool:

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Game Manual Section 2.3 Definitions

"Puck - A scoring element for the 2008 FIRST Tech Challenge game, FIRST Face Off!. The puck is a Mylec or Franklin floor or street hockey puck that is made of molded plastic and measures 1 - inch thick and 3 - inches in diameter. It weighs approximately 2 ounces. Each puck will be painted red or blue. Depending on the tournament, there may be other markings on the puck faces for sponsors logos or other decorations."

Read the manual carefully. Also check the bill of materials for the field and you might find the model number recommended for tournament organizers. These should be the solid molded pucks without any sort of roller bearings.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Well, I can see that there are mixed feelings about this years FTC game. Some people say that it is too similar to last years game but really it isn't. This year there is a longer autonomous period and the scoring revolves around the center. There are also the ramps that are spring loaded that gain you extra points. Ring and pucks are similar in shape, yes, however your method to obtain the pucks can and propbably will be much different. I remember teams picking up the rings from the center like a skewer. You won't be able to do that this year. Also the pucks and rings are a different weight. Now for the strategy. Yes you can get the other teams pucks. But if you do that in auto mode than you will be giving the other team points which is a down fall to that idea. Also in order to get all the pucks from the other team your robot would need to do it with great speed and the team that your trying to get the pucks from will have to be not moving or doing absolutely nothing. It is possible but i highly doubt that strategy alone will win you matches. Also the method of just knocking the pucks into a hopper and scoring them all at once like a dumping method may be harder than you think. The triangle goal is high up but also a pretty good distance from the outside of the circle which is one thing to keep in mind. Yes you can dump the pucks in the circle but it wont be nearly as effective as dumping many in the triangle. With the auto mode getting the pucks down from the far rack will be much more challenging than just driving over there. Most likely there will be a robot in the way sometime in autonomous. I personally like this years challenge and the new kit. You can think what you like but i would put your feelings aside when designing the robot and at your meetings. Good luck!

WHERE TO GET PUCKS????
 

It is very difficult to test out the robot without the game elements. Does ANYONE know where to get the hockey pucks for the game? It is silly that FIRST does not post this information. My guess is that they are afraid that the teams will buy them all up first.

David

Re: WHERE TO GET PUCKS????
 

I for one am very excited about the upcoming season. I think there are a decent number of options for high powered offensive robots, but it is much easier to play defense this year, mostly due to the central scoring area.

Re: WHERE TO GET PUCKS????
 

Well, Monty, I'm sure you know how annoying true defensive bots can get. :D.

And, this year, i don't think that defensive bots will have the upper hand. The motors for drive this year are the same and most teams will utilize a 4 wheel drive. The defensive bot will generally be smaller and thus, this year, will not be able to push around the bigger robots.

Generally in the past you had teams who were scoring but could only use 4 motors for drive, while you had other teams using 10 motors for their drive. That's bound to change.

In the recent email blast is said "www.thestreethockeyshop.com (orange pucks, come in packs of 6)". That may be helpful.

As for the game, this is probably the most innovative game i've seen so far. There's not simply lifting and scoring things. There's more to it. This game really expands technology. I think it's great. :D.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I remain baffled.

1. The GDC has told us where to buy the pucks ("orange") but not the part number at the referenced Website. Would it have been that hard to look up the part number?

2. The cost of the field is unbelievable. Last year was really affordable -- I don't think we spent $100 on the whole thing. This year, sourcing parts locally, here is PART of the cost:

Paint to specs - $100
Lexan to build goals - $130
Spring-loaded hinges - $60
Plywood - $30
MDF - $30
Rollers, corrugated paneling, fasteners - $???

So that's $350 for a practice field, and doesn't include all the parts to build it. With sales tax and the remaining parts we are looking at $400 for the field alone. We built highly competitive Vex ROBOTS last year for about $500 each. This is insane.

I ordered parts yesterday from IFI for our VRC teams and they shipped this morning. I am still waiting for the FTC parts I ordered THREE WEEKS ago.

One of my FTC teams wanted an additional 120-tooth gear. More than $30 for a single gear?!? A short list of additional parts for ONE of my three FTC teams came to $250. Without the discount for returning teams, and including registration fees for a single tournament, we will be spending $225-250 per student for this program. That's about $150-175 with the discount. I can field a VRC team for about $75-100 per student. I'm not sure FTC makes sense any more.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Rick is having all the same questions that I have been having....

----------
THIS IS TRUE... does it make sense? I may be bringing my teams back to VEX and sell my FTC kit on EBAY. Some other team with money may be able to make a go at it. Have you tried buying METAL? The restriction on other metal makes it impossible.... buy from US or be disqualified.... I am just hanging my head, but I am going to make the best of it for the 10 students that have signed up. I have given up on putting together a full practice field... It is way too expensive, I am running this out of my Garage with my own funds. With VEX, it was possible, the "new and Improved" FTC... it is really insane....:( :( :( :( :(

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I just wanted to add that parts delivery from Lego have gotten much better, and the team discount helps. All three of my FTC teams continue to struggle with the design limitations of the new platform. All of my VRC teams are done with their designs and are into "endless fussing" mode.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I think this link was posted before, but I just wanted to post it again to make sure teams have it.

http://logoloc.com/first/RNR/2009GamesKits.html

Here you can buy the field for FTC at a pretty good price, as well as pucks. I know we wish we had this link earlier, but now it's a bit too late for us.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I don't think the design limitations are so severe that they would restrict a major part of a design. I mean, probably the biggest issue this year is no intake rollers or treads, but that's part of the game.

Eh, personally, those prices are a little high anyways. For a team pushing their budget, I can't afford to pay $115 for 70 pucks. I would much rather pay $10 for like 5 pucks...but there is no small ordering in this.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

There was a website that had regulation pucks (although they were orange) in packs of 6 (although they were a higher price individually when bought that way). Unfortunately, I do not have the link. Can someone else post it?

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

:D. I know. They can be found at http://store.thestreethockeyshop.com/flhopu3pa.html

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I really think more freedom should be given to innovative design using fully rotational servos - requires the freedom to alter the gearhead.--commonly seen servo hack.

Are we allowed to use pop rivets?

If not a bit more fastener freedom should be implemented and FTC should really permit hybrid vehicles which can utilize fully the good stuff from VEX - like tracks and linear slides.

If they keep it the way it is currently I will think twice about doing it again next year, The current part system is inadequate for serious robotics. Flanged bearings should be part of the kit instead of bushings, yes they are expensive but in my humble opinion well worth it.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I'm sorry, i'm not quite sure where you are coming from. plastic gears and prepackaged solutions aren't "serious robotics" either. Did you know there is an encoder in the LEGO motor that lets it act like at 360 degree servo? This new kit has taken a lot of folks outside of their comfort zone, I understand that, but to say it is not "serious" is not being fair. My only gripe with the kit was the lack of a decent way of connecting the lego motors to the metal, but we did it. I would take a look at what folks are putting together for St. Louis and Charlottesville before making such broad statements.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Outside comfort zone: yes.
More Challenging: yes.
A welcome change: yes.
Looking forward to this season: heck yes.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Well I guess we have different perspectives on serious.:) I am coming from FRC never having done FTC or LEGO, so please excuse my ignorance.

What is a LEGO motor? Are you ref'ing the NXT motor? If so yes of course. Still it bothers me that one is so restricted by the kits contents and the inability to tweak and hack with outside components.

Is there a final comprhensive BOM for the FTC kit yet anywhere. The last one I have is quite incomplete.

Can we use pop rivets?

Please provide links to see what you are refering to in the St. Louis and Charlotteville area. I'd enjoy seeing some development pics.

I am looking forward to some great fun as well.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

The link to the Bill of Materials is http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...or%20FIRST.pdf .

Uh, pop rivets, I don't think so.

The St. Louis and Charlotteville tournaments are on Saturday, so they have not happened yet. Pictures will probably be posted on Sunday, or Late saturday if we're lucky.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

That is the Field BOM - I need a good bom for the FTC kop.

What is a LEGO motor?

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

The NXT motor. It is made by LEGO (or at least to their specs), and includes an encoder inside it.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I find it rather bizzare that Pitsco and FTC have yet to produce a "complete" BOM, from a business and end user perspective.:confused:

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

We aren't as restricted as we were with the VEX system. We are able to fabricate parts using Polycarb and Alum (see rules of details). This is not FRC, the machining ability/resources of the team does not have as big of an impact. It's a different kind of competition. The Charlottesville Comp was awesome. There where some great teams there with some excellent robots. I'll try and get some pictures up this week.

Oh, and about the BOM: The lack of a BOM and clarification as to what LEGO parts were legal led to some none kit parts being allowed into competition. I REALLY hope this is clarified before the next round of events.

Pop Rivets? not allowed. Only connectors in this years kit (or exact OTC parts) and your VEX connectors are allowed.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

Pictures would be awsome.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I don't know if I could disagree any more than I do with this statement. We've spent the whole build season saying "If we only had <this Vex part> this would be easy." The whole Pitsco/Lego combination has -- quite frankly -- been a train wreck.

Re: [FTC]: Thoughts on new FTC game?
 

I'm sorry to hear that. Sometimes folks get too focused on what they wish they had as opposed to working with what they have in front of them. Teams are doing VERY well with a lack of packaged parts (Twisted Bots and their planetary arm come to mind). Charlottesville has shown me there are multiple ways to victory. Again, I'm sorry you have having difficulty.