Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has some interesting facts about how many jobs Americans typically hold in certain age ranges. Their last release showed that the late baby boomers on average held 10.8 jobs from age 18 to age 42. The job duration increases from an average of one year just after college age to 5 years by age 35. I would also imagine that the next study will show the average number of jobs has increased and the duration decreased as I have the impression that the Gen X'ers and younger are more likely to change jobs than my generation was/ is.

The mobility just after college would seem to indicate that for the first few years after college, many do exactly what Rich suggests, get a starter job and build from there. If you are able to get a job that fits in your master plan, all the better. But having a job, any job, can be a stepping stone to another job. If you do well, you will garner recommendations, and there is a confidence in applying for a job when you already have the fall back in place.

I believe that persistence and networking are both keys to finding the job to appply for. But there has to be a skill in selling yourself, to win the job. And there must be some factor of being in the right place at the right time.

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

a few comments:

I got my first 'pro' job back during the severe financial recession of the early 1980's. It was extremely tough and had a 'ratio' of about 250:1 if gauged by what I wanted versus what I could get.

In all honesty I did turn down about 3 or 4 offers in areas that wasn't exactly what I wanted to do. So maybe the 60:1 number is about right.

Be persistant, work on networking and relationships.

For your 1st job be willing to relocate a long way from home.

Work on a project while you are searching for a job. Before the days of the internet and instant information availability, I sat in a little tiny town in the middle of nowhere and taught myself RF Receiver Design (that is what I wanted to do). That was a very difficult task.

After 10 months of looking via the usual methods I jumped in the car and starting driving to my potential targets. The closest one was 420 miles away. Walked in, handed them my info, and got an instant interview at 4:30 pm and left at 7:30 pm. (they made an offer in the mail the next day)

The next day I went to another firm and got thrown out on my ear.

Driving 420 miles and walking in in a suit sufficiently impressed them plus the fact that I mentioned that I had been working on a project that aligned with THEIR NEEDS.

The interview started with the usual new graduate questions - strengths, weaknesses, etc, etc, blah, blah. Pointing to a briefcase, I mentioned my design project, self taught, living in rural isolation. That is what they are looking for. Self motivation on a project that ALIGNS with their needs.

Imagine that - I was a mediocre college student with mediocre grades that started working for a world class company doing first class aerospace advanced design work. If I can do it, you can do it too !!!

But you have to move away from the usual dribble blah blah of the interview process that causes you to blend in with a sea of suits.

Artists have things called portfolios. Every engineering student should have a portfolio. The first items in the portfolio should be the high school FIRST projects. Then add items as you go through the university culminating with your senior design project. You can also add research assistantships and so on. A project doesn't have to be iron hardware. It could be a mathematical analysis, simulation, design project.

My portfolio completely banished all the usual and traditional metrics of hiring to the trash heap. All the traditional objections (like grades) for setting aside my application were forgotten because my portfolio aligned with my employers needs.

FIRST is a great launching pad for starting your portfolio - Take advantage of FIRST and the opportunities to start your portfolio today !!

Work hard, live hard, have fun.

( water game anyone ? <grin> ? )

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

Well, I got a job.

I would like to pat myself on the back for being awesome. *pat*

Thanks for closing the other thread gestapo.

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

Well, actually...
I've been thinking about these 2 threads for a few days and I've mulled over the networking tool and kind of turned it into a job board. I'm aware of LinkedIn, etc., but I'm also wondering about just an old-fashioned job board here in CD, perhaps the Career section - maybe develop a way to respect privacy but still put the word out for potential employers and employees. That's probably along the lines of opening a can of worms, but it's something I've been thinking about as the news continues to inform us about the current financial situation nationally and globally.

---
Congratulations on your job, RobotCollegeGuy.

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

Congrats to you! Out of curiosity, did it come from networking on CD, or some other avenue?

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

Just for grins, what did your "ratio" turn out to be?

Wow -- that was a pretty uncool thing to say.

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

The person that posted a rude reply, in response to what he thought was spam given how little information you presented in your post, has indicated to us that he's apologized to you and is regretful of his tone.

My unsolicited advice is that you take consideration of your own tone. People do not typically keep their first professional job for substantially more than a year and this bridge is on fire.

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

WOW! And congratulations! That was amazingly quick considering your tone of distress a few weeks ago. So what "clicked?" What advice would you give for the other job seekers?

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

I applied to 13 places (all places I really wanted to work), was interviewed by 5, had offers from 3. 1 company reneged on their offer for economic reasons, the other offer was laughable. The final one was perfect, great pay, great benefits, great work atmosphere, great area.

I'll share some advice, that I think allowed for me to have a greater 'ratio' than you all described.

Try to dominate the interview, ask important questions, exude confidence, and most importantly be yourself.
Talk of your achievements with pride, don't ever downplay yourself.
Look at the faces of the non-management employees, and see if they are happy - it's likely that if they are all downtrodden.... you will be too.

There is one bad thing IMO that FIRST cultivates in its students, and that is that everybody is a winner and that success is realized just by attempt. This is so not true in the real world, that type of philosophy in an interview is going to lead you out the door. Don't go into these interviews thinking they will just know you, you have very little time to describe yourself. Most of what they will take from you is not what you say, but how you say it.

CD should consider a more formal job board like JaneYoung has suggested. I came here and posted as if it was one, and was met with great hostility. This would be a wonderful place for employers to meet potential hires.

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

Congrats on your job.

You and I have very different definitions of "great hostility".

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

[quote=RobotCollegeGuy;771748]I applied to 13 places (all places I really wanted to work), was interviewed by 5, had offers from 3. 1 company reneged on their offer for economic reasons, the other offer was laughable. The final one was perfect, great pay, great benefits, great work atmosphere, great area.
QUOTE]

Sounds like the traditional channels worked pretty well for you. This ratio you are discussing sounds like a more typical ratio of people that meet my(and many other recruiters) general basic criteria:
1. Relevant Degree (Sorry this is an engineering job you BA in lingusitics isn't what I am looking for.)
3.0 or better GPA (This is a standard used by a ton of companies. Some are higher, and some are not set in stone. Typically below 3.0 in college is a warning sign that a person either couldn't cut it or had priorities issues. There are a lot of great engineering students that forget that they are their for an education).
Involved in something related to the field they are going into (a 4.0 GPA, but all you can talk about is class also worries me get involved in a club, hobby...Involved means more than signing up for. I would often check with other club members during the day because they are interveiwing too)
Some type of work experience (really anything that just shows "yes someone else was willing to pay you money").

I say those are minimums because I am always amazed at what students bring to me. I have been a rep at 8 years of job fair for college interns and new hires. During that time I have literally looked at hundreds of resumes and talked to a ton of students. There are some amazing individuals out there.

Robot College Guy is right that confidence sells. Be careful though about the line between confidence and arrogance. It is a fine line and I have turned down many arrogant students, because it was pretty clear they could not get along with others.

My last word of advice is practice interviewing often. Know good things to say about yourself. Like RobotCollegeGuy says, and interview is your time to brag about accomplishments. If you and your resume don't tell me what you did, how am I supposed to figure it out?

Oh one more piece:
Beware of canned answers. My company used to make me ask the "Greatest Weakness" question. If you tell me that your greatest weakness is "I am a perfectionist" or "I work too hard" you better be ready to get grilled because that sets of my B.S. meter and I am going to want examples of why "Working Hard" is a weakness. About 1:10 would give me one of those two answers. Out of the 20 or so that answered that way, only 1 was able to answer my follow ups. I am generally a nice guy, but I don't like to be lied to.

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

Nice way to win friends and influence people

Success in FIRST is not realized by the attempt. Success in FIRST is realized by hard work.

Attempting to build a robot has never won any type of success. Learning what you need to do to accomplish the objective and working hard towards that objective can yield success (just as in the real world).

If you believe that just attempting to compete is success, then you've missed some of the point of FIRST. As yoda said "do or do not, there is no try"

Maybe you should take some of your own advice?

The above, as always, is JMHO

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

This is somewhat off-topic, but I'm wondering, have the rest of you found this to be true? Does getting less than a 3.0 indicate you're "not up to snuff?"

When I was an EE major in the 1980's, I took quite a few classes where the median was set at the dividing point between C and D. In several classes, it was announced on the first day of class, "In this class, 50% of you will not pass. That's mandated by the department, and it's a promise." I was told that one reason for the 50% attrition requirement was that 500 freshmen had declared themselves as EE majors, but there was only enough lab space for 240 students annually for upper-level lab courses. By the time I was a junior, most classes had a median set at a more sane level, typically at the dividing point between B and C. But that still meant that half the people earned C's or below, so a 3.0 GPA was not that easy to maintain. The school I attended is large and well-known (it's ranked by US News & World Report in the top 10 in engineering among national universities), so it's not "some weird school no one goes to." While I'm not particularly gifted as an engineer, I worked pretty hard -- typically 70+ hours/week on classes. Some of my more talented classmates bemoaned the fact that they were also working 70 - 80 hours/week and earning even worse grades that I was. I seem to recall that the department-wide GPA for undergrads was reported at 2.4. The consolation was "if you can just graduate from here, you can write your own ticket" and it's true that after graduation, many students with grades in the 2.2 - 2.5 range seemed to get decent offers.

Have grading standards changed in the last 25-30 years? The reason why "typical grades" concern me is that my son is applying to schools where some of the merit-based scholarships require maintaining a 3.0 GPA. As a freshman at the aforementioned school, this would have been very difficult to do. In fact, maintaining a 3.0 in that environment might almost be an unrealistic burden to place on a student.

I'm wondering if my experience was an atypical "blip" at a strange time in the history of a school with poor lab facilities. Or is it true that standards and expectations in engineering courses are still much higher than in other disciplines?

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

ABET may have something to do with that: There was something big that happened in 1980.
http://www.abet.org/history.shtml

Our 3.0 policy is because part of the new hire process requires that you et your MS at night and most schools require a 3.0 to get your MS.

I can speak for earlier times, but I grauated from Purdue in 2001. By that time about 50% of employers I looked into wanted a 3.0 or higher explicitly. A couple even wanted a 3.5 or higher (but those were rare and mostly for research firms).

As far as the 3.0 thing goes, it just keeps a lot more doors open. I had friends with 2.5 GPA that still got nice jobs, but I also know that they got turned down on the spot for many jobs they wanted.

Purdue is a really good engineering school. Often top 10 depending on the degree. I have heard of that grades don't matter if you went to a certain school, but I have only heard this referenced to Ivy League and MIT.

P.S. At Purdue there were several courses that believe in extremely tough exams i.e. median scores of 30%. Typically though these scores were normalized so that the median grade was around a 3.0.

Re: Using Chief Delphi as a Networking Tool
 

My hiring story (circa 1994): I got my first position out of school at a great company, doing work I enjoyed, mostly because I knew someone (a professor) who knew someone (an earlier graduate of his) who worked for someone (the earlier graduate's boss) who was getting ready to hire a couple of fresh-outs, after several years of hiring freezes. The professor recommended me because a) he knew me, via class contact and engineering related extra-curricular activities and b) believed that I would reflect well on him and the school. I also had good enough grades (around 3.4-ish as an undergrad, and about the same in grad school) to pass the sniff test. There were a couple of rounds of interviews, and they actually offered me my choice of two jobs. My boss eventually told me that the main reason he made me an offer was because I apparently interviewed very well, and exhibited both technical knowledge and self-confidence [blush]. No mention of GPA. Your mileage may vary.

My point is that it isn't necessary to go to an ivy-league or well-known school, or have a perfect GPA to build a career that you really enjoy. Your GPA only has to be good enough not to hold you back. I think for most highly-motivated folks that translates to about a 3.2 GPA today. A fantastic GPA alone won't result in your success after school ends. Active participation in FIRST helps, no question.