I'm back with some advice
 

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2008...me-advice.html

Uh oh...

Any thoughts?

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

...




water game? :rolleyes:

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

You know what would suck?

If a warning like that meant that something as fundamental as the small CIMs or Kitbot chassis wasn't in the KoP anymore...

Either that, or they shrunk the maximum dimensions by an inch or two. :ahh:

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

With 842 being the Championship Chairman's winners, this is as good a time as any to bring that up!

Seriously though, it looks like we might want to be exploring some other ways of making robots move around on dry land of various contours.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Though Bill does not speak plainly, it appears he suggests that we shouldn't assume any particular robot design. He further hints not to make any large purchases of any particular material. There is a strong possibility that the game will be released sometime in January.... :)

In other words, it may be much ado about nothing (the "inch or two" view) or we may be thrown for a doozy of a different game (the "how can robots move" view). I'm going for the latter.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

In moments such as these, I think of:
- tums
- pepcid ac
- cookies and cream ice cream
- gingerale (an old cure)
- milk and crackers (another old cure)
- a tall mountain top from which to yodel angst
- carpet to pace a large path into
- juggling - I don't know why but it's fun
- coffee, a large cup of coffee

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

It's lunch time here.....

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

This advice is typically given, though not officially, at some time between September and January (or before) as some teams start experimenting.

I would assume that there is something besides the control system and the game that will be changing. Probably the dimensions (2005, changed the dimensions when we got C and 3v3), though maybe some key element is going to change.

81 days to kickoff... Too long!

Or...Oh, no! The No-Metal on Robots Rule!:yikes::rolleyes:

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

We'll defintely be working on both the balancing 2 wheel robot, the 6 legged robot, and the wood chassis 8 wheel drive robot ideas this fall.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Wheels? Legs? Wood? Read the message again...
:D

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Exactly! we're not assuming any one robot design will be right for the game, so we're developing several different ideas.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Which is, of course, why they are testing three designs.

I'm surprised they aren't testing the hamster-powered robot, the "Tinfoil Freshman", and the flying robot.:p

:rolleyes:Of course, I'm certain team 71 is already done with their prototyping for about 200 different ideas, and the most recent would have been the game-figuring-out robot. Not sure if the prototype works.../:rolleyes:

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Nooooooooooooo! X.x there goes my programming ideas... I really hope not

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Haha, the sad part is we actually were working on [designing] a 2 wheeled balancing robot for FRC competitions and a wooden chassis (which we'll actually probably use, unless this new game forces us to change it!)...

Wait, I thought 71 had their game-figuring-out robot working for several years now? :rolleyes:

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Guys,
This is a standard warning for teams who are trying to get an early start. I remind teams of this every year. The KOP is not finalized yet so the exact motors and other hardware is not fixed in stone. Not even I know what might be in the kit for the electrical side, including which battery we might be getting. Make general plans but don't set your design. Can you imagine a team that dedicates itself to casters only to find a game that has a series of ramps announced in January. Remember, it was not too long ago that teams could choose a size/weight class.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

The only thing we can glean from Bill's post that we didn't know before is..........








(Hear the crickets?)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

For the most part we have been flat landers the past few years. How would your current frame design do with a 3 D playing field? Ramps steps and all that challenging stuff. I would love to see them bring in 30 tons of bolders, road balast and sand for the playing surface. ( never happen ) Also, for the teams that have gone with and built off of the IFI kit frame, It appears IFI is out of the supply chain. If a kit frame is included it's bound to be different.
The 6 wheel low rider frames have become the standard. Would be nice to have a playing field that would put them at a disadvantage to shake things up.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Sounds like fun, but only if you agree to recruit a few hundred friends for the set-up and strike duty for the regionals...;)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I'm going back to Hammond for my college fall break this weekend, so maybe I'll need to have a reunion with my buddies from 71 to see what they know...:D

(Ridiculously Off-Topic Sidenote: Seriously though. I am sooo psyched to go back to Hammond this weekend!)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Here's hoping to something wild and different this year.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

i was just talking to one of the guys on the team the other night that the field could be sand:eek:

i would think sand would be more likely than water, although still probabilly not going to happen.

maybe multi surface field, carpet with sandpit in the middle???:rolleyes:

many teams recently have gone with less than 1" ground clearance. i would be nice to see the game force these teams to redesign their frames.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Too many teams would have an advantage if it was sand. All the coastal teams would have ready-made testing grounds, with tougher conditions than an FRC field, and the inland teams would have to find sand and put it in a testing area.

Oh, and a lot of the coastal teams are already doing well. (Yes, I'm counting the teams around the Great Lakes as coastal.)

Now corn, on the other hand...

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Corn.... Like Indianna, Ohio, Michigan and other states I can't think of with lots of corn need the advantage?

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

As Grandma Lavery used to say... "be careful what you wish for."



.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

No, it's more "Like the original teams need the advantage".:rolleyes:

The reason I suggested corn is the original game (Maize Craze) was played on a corn-covered field.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Every once in a while it's good to have all the paradigms shaken up.

So I'm looking forward to seeing what the GDC throws at us :D

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Daniel,
Have you ever been hit by a red herring? I have 4 letters for you: d u c k !

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I hope we get something nice and simple but still exciting. I would be very disappointed if we saw a major leap into the unknown in terms of game design during the same year in which we all have to adapt to a new control system.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Not yet ... but I expect to, soon, now that I've taunted the game gods :eek:

Oh, and which is it ... a herring or a duck ;)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I hope there's no big motor changes in the KOP...

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I don't think we should read too much into this. It's always brought up around this time of year that teams who want an early start shouldn't do anything expensive or definite. You never know what we'll get come January.

I'm sure it'll be unforgettable.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

They change anything they want as long as we can still use four cims.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Why not? I doubt they would switch away from CIM's at this point. Especially with companies like Andymark and Banebots already committing to the CIM for their gearboxes-- but after that, I'm pretty much open to anything.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

As one of the guys who would be responsible for moving that stuff in and out of the venue, you're right it will never happen. Even if they put it in the game it will never happen. Because it would take a week just to get the stuff in and we don't have the venue for that long.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

We got along just fine with only 2 CIMs and 2 drills before 2005... Hey, you got a 2-speed tranny in the KOP! (OK, so it was a planetary... and a pain to mount... but still!)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

-Battlebots is hosting its first event in 5 years 1 week after the FIRST Championship....
-There will be a 120 lb. High School Class...
-Some of the people involved in designing the new Jaguars are battlebots builders.

-????? ;) :D



LOL water game!? HAHAHA! thats rich, I've never heard that one before :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Who can imagine the grin on Dave's face when he wrote this.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I doubt sand and boulders would be used - far too messy. But what if the playing field was somewhat hilly or bumpy or otherwise significantly non-flat, perhaps requiring an actual (gasp!) suspension for the wheels? That would shake things up, and good.

So many teams have a standard drivetrain that they buy the materials for and, 3 days after kickoff, have built already, since it's the umpteenth time they've made one like that.

In the words of Inspector Clouseau "not any more". or?
Point of order: I did not wish for anything, thank you very much.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Empty field, coming right up! Or was that, no FRC competition?:rolleyes:

(Favorite corruption in the "Make a wish...and have it horribly corrupted!" thread if someone forgets: Granted, you get nothing!)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I hope this doesn't mean we shouldn't stock up on zip ties.... :P

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Corn.... hmm that reminds me there a bunch of that all over the floor in the loft above our shop and I have no idea why.

As for the zip ties they were not so nice about them at the Seattle Regional (had to take them all off except for wires and replace them with bolts) while at the Portland one they loved them and never broke.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

What were these zip ties used for? I can see if they were being used to hold the robot together, but it it's simply mounting the electronics and stuff like that, I don't remember any rule against it. (Not saying there couldn't be one in 2009, of course.)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

So wait...

Why does the robot base have to move?

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Extension rules, the last couple of years. Dunno if those'll be back again. (They weren't exactly the most popular ones...)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...87&postcount=6

Talk about answering questions before they are asked!!!

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Well that is just plain creepy. Nasa has obviously perfected both time travel and mind reading....

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I think its probably safe to say no sand and no water. They're not going to put the game in an environment that will be detrimental to electronics, gearboxes, and motors.

Corn would be a clear choice if an alternate playing surface was going to be used.

However, I feel this blurb is more to stop teams from beginning their builds early, which IIRC is against the rules.

/haven't been involved with FIRST in a while
//its good to be back

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I'm on board with this. I just hope that the GDC didn't set their sights to high and say "we're giving them all these new libraries, it'll be easy" like they did with the camera in 2004. I hope they applied some common sense and made the major change the control system and left the game to something manageable. There are going to be enough challenges with the new control system. Give us a year to figure out how to use it to its potential before throwing something insane at us.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I agree that it's the standard "don't anticipate" warning. In spite of my joking above (which I fear may have been taken too seriously), ya never know what will come out of GDC. Maybe a climbing or a hanging game, maybe ramps or floor bumps, maybe another race game like 2008. Maybe not real water, but change of surface -- your robot can be on one surface or the other. Like either you're a ramp-bot or not.

And if you think about it -- all the games have been simple (well, all the ones I've seen for the past couple of years). There have been "add-ons" that make parts of the game more difficult, as well as simpler alternates for letting everyone get to play.

They actually used corn in the "Maize Craze"? When I saw Andy Baker's old video of a match I was wondering what was all over the floor. Then it hit me -- maize -- corn. Corn?!? Wow -- how did the robots perform with all that corn in the gears?

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Personally, I think we should look to the FTC for direction. I think we may see the addition of 'rough terrain' areas on the playing field.

Sadly, something gives me the feeling there will not be water involved. :(

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I'm voting against the entire field being some sort of crazy, difficult to navigate surface, be it sand, bumps, water, or a mobility denial system. All of the really difficult mobility challenges in the past 5 years were optional. Plus FIRST has gone to a lot of trouble the past several years putting out a kit-bot that guarantees everyone should have a robot capable of at least moving around the field. I can't really picture the GDC wanting to return to the heady days of rookie bots hobbling around the field getting high-centered on 2" pipes, having wheels fall off, etc.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I echo this thought. For this introductory year of the new controller, I can't see how they could expect us to master that, and build to a complicated playing field/game.

Now the next year 2010, Katie bar the door..............:ahh:

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

If they do add something to the field, it won't be something like a Mobility Denial System. Something a lot simpler.

Personally, I think Bill is trying to scare us.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

There was a request that went around to Northern VA teams asking for help in mentoring the new rookie teams this year. Perhaps we are moving back to that realm of thought for at least a year. Rather than thinking of it as a restrictive end for rookie teams, perhaps we could think of it as a more open-ended forum for new teams with fresh ideas?

Time to dig up those old RC helicopter drawings I have stashed away...

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

That would suck shrinking the maximum dimensions... but at IRI they were displaying the new Kit Bot frame for this up coming year, and it was the same dimensions we are used to. I even think the representative said that Rush used the frame this year for competition so they could see how it works.


Keaton

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Still don't buy it. Every kickoff, Woody's going on about how we've provided teams with this easy to build kit-bot, flexible programming environment, etc. This plus the new controller make the push towards more interesting programming clear. Forcing teams, any teams, to struggle to move removes the focus from programming and showing off the new control system. I'm with Cory on this. The game will be just as "simple" as years past, with added emphasis on autonomous and programming.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

3 years ago, they introduced the vision system. This year, they will be unveiling a smelling system.

Mark my words.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I believe what you saw was a Rush mentor starting up a business, Team 221 Robotic Systems, and not a pre-release chassis for the KoP.

The chassis is discussed in more detail here.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

That bin of balls is the playing field.

That kid is your robot. :D

or maybe he's the game peice? :D

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Although I'm in the category of classifying this as a "standard disclaimer", I could also see it being a message not to spend too much on drive train components because there are going to be some really cool ones included in the KOP. After all, if you went out and bought a couple of super-shifters only to find them included in the KoP... well, that wouldn't be BAD news, but it certainly would have been money that you could have spent on something else.

Jason

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Or, being a pessimist...

In 2007 and 2008, there have been new rules to clarify the use of COTS items. For example:

Maybe the new rules will make many common COTS components that teams are used to buying illegal. In 2007, there was a lot of backlash, because teams had already purchased items. Now, everybody's gotten a warning...

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I find it hard for this to be a standard disclaimer. Something's up.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

Maybe ... No more bumpers! :yikes: It's a coded message to the northern climes that they don't have to go out to the pool supply places before they all shut down for the winter. :P

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I'd say too easy to jam... Think about it. (Thousands of high school students, plus food and chain grease...)

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I am far too familiar with this grin. When he makes it, you better be very aware of your surroundings.

Wetzel

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

I'm definitely on the same page with the two you on this one.
The GDC has done a great job in the last few year (emphasis on 2008) with developing games that allowed every level of team to contribute. It also encouraged and rewarded more advanced teams for doing amazing autonomous routines.

Re: I'm back with some advice
 

My team was wondering if there were any clues given at the Championship like in 07 (Stock market, hamster wheels etc.). I don't recall any, does anyone know if there were?