Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

I can't believe that no one has commented on this great achievement out of New Hampshire from last week...

From the FIRST Press Room:
Press Release (Oct 6, 2008) -- Gov. Lynch, Dean Kamen Set Goal of Bringing FIRST Robotics Competition To All NH Schools (pdf; 92KB)

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

This is fabulous, I wish every state had the same approach and congrats to Dean Kamen.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

One state down, the rest of the world left... :)

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

More like 3 if you count Washington and Hawaii.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

I think this is maybe not the greatest thing ever.

Why shoot for 100% FRC participation? It may take years to find the funds, and teams may drop out or not have the support they need to be sustainable if all they're getting is $6,000.

Seems like it'd be so much smarter to shoot for 100% FIRST involvement- be it FTC or FRC. The former is dirt cheap relative to FRC. It would be entirely plausible for every school to have one (or more) FTC teams. Furthermore, due to how much fewer resources you need to have a successful FTC program, it seems like the retention rate would be much better than that of FRC.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

disregard first post...

I'm gonna have to agree with Cory on this. It will not be beneficial to the state if all schools have an expensive FRC program instead of just any other FIRST program. Something that might occur is that one year all schools might have a functioning team..but then what about later years? What if the districts realize the next year that they can't afford FRC and are turned off from all FIRST programs because of this? I don't think it would be sustainable no matter how much effort the state puts in and how the economy in our nation ends up.

I know what I'm saying seems counterproductive or detrimental to the golas of FIRST, but I think it'd be better to have FIRST in all schools...not just FRC.

However, this is a HUGE accomplishment for Dean and FIRST. The dream truly is coming true :)

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

Seeing how New Hampshire already has one of (if not the highest) ratio of FRC teams per capita of any state, they are already well on their way to succeeding in the mission of FIRST.

I wish them the best of luck up there with their endeavor, especially for all the [future] teams up in North Country. Besides the tourist industry, almost all of the other [logging and paper] industry has been outsourced away from there, which would probably make it difficult (though not impossible) to form FRC teams based on corporate sponsorships up there.

Perhaps FTC/Vex would be a lot better suited for those rural areas, rather than a straight FRC-everywhere-across-the-board philosophy. The best strategy for the getting FIRST in all NH schools would probably be for each school to do which ever competition they feel most comfortable with, as they know best what resources they have (or can acquire) to succeed.

But regardless, having the support of the Governor for the ideals of a program such as FIRST is always a good thing.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

I don't see a dollar amount attached to that press release. I have to expect that someone's explained to the Governor that team budgets must necessarily be higher than that, and that the fundraising goals must therefore be set much higher.

To me, the most notable feature of the statement was that "Gov. Lynch and Kamen challenged the state’s business and higher education communities to increase sponsorship and volunteer efforts in order to reach the 100 percent participation threshold." Not that there's anything particularly wrong with asking others for sponsorship, but it would be nice for the state government to clarify how much they intend to spend on this project.

There's a gubernatorial election coming up in New Hampshire, and it is probably a fairly sound political move to announce something like this, to build popular support. But remember the similar initiative in Michigan to fund FIRST programs at the state level? It was an item that the Governor championed, but which was ultimately trimmed from the budget. I wonder whether this one will face similar obstacles when it actually comes time to pass a state budget—that will be the real test of the state's commitment.

As for the merits of funding FRC throughout a state, I figure that doing so in a small state—and New Hampshire in particular—is a pretty good choice. FIRST gains clout by being able to say that it has 100% penetration in an entire state (despite the fact that there are fewer high schools there than in many large cities). And with FIRST based in New Hampshire, the politicians can be seen devoting their efforts to a worthy local cause that promises future benefits to the state's high-tech industries—doubly important when people are in a protectionist mood brought on by economic confusion.

Compared to other jurisdictions, New Hampshire is an excellent place to demonstrate the best-case scenario for a 100% penetration model. If it succeeds there, then others may follow—but if it fails in the state where FIRST has access to many unique advantages, it's going to be a very hard sell elsewhere. Either way, I don't see this as being a bad experiment.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

I meant more along the lines of even if money was taken care of (and obviously $6k won't do that. Each team would need more like at least $10k) that there's much more a team needs to be successful. Mainly mentors, which requires finding engineers, teachers, etc. Plus countless other things you need to make a team really sustainable.

Obviously this press release is far too brief to determine what the level of support will be. I'd hope they have taken all of the above into account.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

Quantity over Quality?

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

That's always my worry when I see announcements of big initiatives like this. It's FABULOUS to have govt officials behind FIRST like this and the thought of course credit for participation REALLY interests me, however the reality is that even if the government support AND money are there (for now), you still need the people to make it all happen. Cory has stated rather clearly what it takes to have a sustainable FRC team/program. Finding even one mentor/teacher to work with each of the remaining schools in a sustainable way will be a daunting task. Having students receive course credit for being on a team is a great idea, but how do you do this well and validate the individual experience? You'd almost have to create at least one new course in each school otherwise every school club could claim the need for course credit? Again, I love the idea, but I've been through the process of getting robotics courses written and validated and it is no little walk in the park - even one that isn't the FRC experience.

Lastly, I still wonder why folks involved in these high level discussions/planning don't involve an intermediate program in a more detailed way. Isn't it a no-brainer? FRC robots are big and expensive and obtaining our new control system in any kind of quantities is just about out of the question. If we're going to give course credit for students in FRC, how many students do we really serve when we're talking one FRC robot a year in most cases? If you really want to engage a community and curriculum in a profound way doesn't the NXT/Tetrix or VEX platform make a whole lot more sense? More affordable, more availability, more hands-on for more students, more curriculum materials, more user-friendly in non-shop classroom environments?

Given the current structure, if you really want sustainable involvement, wouldn't building courses and teams around an intermediate program make more sense? If you really wanna go crazy, why not put some of the money in Jr FLL expos and follow those students up the ladder in a school district. Yes, it would take longer to get to FRC teams, but think of the solid foundation and flow of students after 5 or 6 years. Ramping up to FRC gradually in one way or another would help to address John's quality/quantity questions.

I am not trying to be a wet blanket here at all, but this is not the first announcement of this kind that I have heard and very few (if any) FRC-only initiatives like this provide quality, sustainable growth on such a large scale. Now, if you look at the model we see going on in Hawaii, using multiple platforms and programs to ramp up the learning toward FRC, you've got the right combination of government support and volunteers/mentors/educators in the trenches making it happen in a much more profound and lasting way IMHO.

To me it comes down to this:
How best do we serve the "mission" the way Woodie describes it and is that mission simply "creating large numbers of FRC teams"?

I would hope that every time we get a governor on board like this we would have a plan with some detail that we could show them that is a "stretch goal" but at the same time includes the building blocks for sustainability that can outlast any one governor's tenure or budget cycle.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

Rich,

Well said. FRC takes allot of money, very special committed teachers and mentors. Finding individuals that will commit the time required for FRC is very difficult. FTC and VEX can be rapped up into a curriculum much easier.
First needs to be careful in the future that they do not swell and implode like a dying sun.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

We don't yet have anything approaching having one FIRST program in each of our schools, to be fair, though our state legislature has taken the first step in that direction by making funding available for FIRST programs.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

I'm actually attending a New Hampshire public school and I'm rather excited about certian aspects of the plan.

The part that most interests me is the fact that I may be recieving credit for participating in FIRST. I think thats an excellent way to boost attendence. The only problems I see is that a lot of New Hampshire public schools are extreamly small. If you don't live in southern New Hampshire theres not much sponsership oppurtunity or resources available to help in the design process as far as I can tell

Hopefully the large New England companies such as BAE will be able to step in and help but I don't see a lot of these schools north of Concord getting a lot of support. I truly hope they do.. but I guess only time will tell. Our Team 151 has allready housed a rookie team last year in our machine shop and we are ready to offer any other help we can provide.

This is deffinitly good news for FIRST... but only time will tell how successfull we are.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

First off, I'd like to thank the Governor. He's setting a goal and attempting to lead people towards that goal. It is to be commended.

That said, however, his statements have to be taken with a grain of salt ... after all, It's election season.

I'd also like to point out that there is no mention of money from the state, instead he's asking private companies and local education systems (both already cash strapped in this economy) to foot this initiative, and man it as well.

I'm not sold on every school needing a team, and I actually believe that that may be counterproductive by diluting the talent pool of the mentors/volunteers. I do, however, believe that all students should have the oppertunity to join a FIRST program. Maybe by creating some district teams or such, rather than having teams be part of specific schools.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

Some things to note...

Yes, Lynch is up for re-election. But he also has a redicoulsly high approval rating, and I have barely heard/seen an ad for his campaign...because I think he feels he does not need to spend the money. Lynch has always been a huge FIRST supporter, as he frequently visits NH FIRST events and speaks at Kickoff before the NASA feed kicks on. Is it well-timed? Sure. Is it out of character? Not really.

Also of note - the BAE GSRegional in the Verizon Wireless Arena currently is maxed out at 39 teams (which could stretch to somewhere in the low 40s including the hidden rookie spots). It is a fixed hockey arena that can not expand, and to my knowledge is the largest public arena in NH. If the plan is to get 87 public schools on board, plus the 5 existing private school teams and the non-school affiliated groups, we will roughly need at least a second Verizon Wireless Arena to fit the NH teams only.

And finally, it comes back to that dreaded s word - sustainability. If there was any state in New England to do it, NH is it, as it is faring the best in this downturn - but can it be sustained, and is this the right place for our time to be spent? No matter the location, it comes down to those two questions.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

I have a mixed reaction to this announcement, on one hand I think its great to see this type of support for FIRST in New Hampshire. But on the other hand (as I've stated before in the Michigan thread) I agree with Cory and JVN that maybe FRC doesn't work for every high school. I do believe that FIRST can work in every school, be it Lego, FTC, or FRC.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

Alright, perhaps this could use some clarification.

Governor Lynch specifically said when asked by a reporter that the government would not fund FIRST programs, but rather that he would get corporations to donate money and mentors. That is why Walt Havenstein and a high-ranking (it was a while ago, so I can't remember exactly his position or name) member of the New Hampshire High Tech Council were both there to announce their support of this proposal.

I do remember seeing a video crew there, so I'll try to see if I can find a video of the announcement, hopefully with all the other people there. (Somebody else might have better luck than me on this - First page of Google and YouTube results turned up nothing for me)

To whoever said something about quantity over quality - Dean Kamen, Walt, and the guy from the NHHTC (but especially Dean Kamen) talked about how necessary mentors were. Dean Kamen talked for quite a while (surprise, surprise!) about how necessary good mentors were to FRC, even saying something along the lines of having a FRC team at a school without good mentors was essentially pointless.

Anyways, it does seem that more people than just John Lynch are committed to having a FIRST program in each school. Even if this is just part of a campaign, BAE and the NHHTC aren't running for office.

Besides, government support is not required for a school to have a FIRST team.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

The person who posed the quality v. quantity question is one of FRC's superior young mentors and a WFFA winner. JVN has contributed designs in collaboration with other FIRST mentors that have been part of the FRC kit of parts and his drive train calculator posted right here on CD-Media has been used successfully by countless teams. He was a student on a team in HS and has mentored both a college based and a sponsored based team.

As far as the pointless nature of an FRC team without "good" mentors I would challenge you to define "good". I believe this is akin to the push Dave Lavery made at kickoff about how having real engineers and/or actual engineering support on a team is critical and a part of the program. That is not the same thing as trying to define "good" mentors.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

i agree as well and i guess our superintendent does too. i think developing the feeder program (just like sports) will help to keep the programs continuing. dr. dipatri wants FLL in all the elementary schools this year. we've had such a huge growth in teams and tournaments. this year we are helping to run 8 local tournaments in our county alone, 1 regional and 1 state tournament -- all for FLL. now, as these kids age up they will be looking to continue their involvement.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

It is great to see a state make this a goal. Michigan has done the same. The Govenor of Michigan has been to several events and even placed money in the budget for FIRST growth for a couple of years before the economy really went bad. Since then she has sent a letter to most of the R&D facilities in Michigan telling them about FIRST and asking for them to get involved.

The "experiment" in Michigan this year is about testing a plan to be able to get FRC in all schools. I am on the Board of FRIST in Michigan and we know that getting FRC in all schools is impossible---not everyone will want to play. But we want to set it up so that they can. That is why we are trying a method of "divisional" play where teams will get two events for less than one using the FIRST method.

I also believe in the other FIRST programs. I have been with FLL since the pilot in 1998. More than half of our FRC team are graduates of FLL. In my opinion, if you want a strong FRC program you must build a strong FLL program. FTC is fine, but it is missing one element of FRC...engineering mentors. FRC is where you get "professionals" to work with the kids to "inspire" them to take up fields of science, math, engineering, and technology. This is the key to FIRST. All other programs build to this and having a FRC team in every school should be our goal. Use the other programs to make that happen. Sure this is hard, but don't focus on the difficulties, plan for the positive. Don't you want kids in all schools to have the chance to have the same experience you have. I think you do, so Make It Happen.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

FRC teams in every school would be possible if the teams that have over $15000 of sponsorship would give the excess sponsorship to other schools. My team does very well on about that much. I think that one key that we do to save money is scrap old robots rather than keep them on display. This saves alot of money on metal. We havent bought wheels in over five years. we also always go to the closest regional, that always saves money. This year with the DC regional, we are commuting on the Metro so we will be spending no money on the competition. ALSO an interesting idea for sponsorship; if big companies donated money straight to FIRST and then was distributed to teams that need money equally. obviously there would have to be some kinks worked out of the system but in the long run it would make the playing field slightly more equal.

No offense to the teams that do any of the things above, i am just putting this out here.

Re: Press Release -- FIRST in ALL NH Schools
 

Hi Walt,
Since you're one of the decision makers in MI and since you've been so gracious to speak here, I was wondering if you could shed any more light on how MI plans on using FTC to help "make that happen." I would also offer a word of caution about FTC not having "professionals" to work with the kids to "inspire". While it is true FTC requires less technical expertise than FRC some of our best FTC teams over the past three years that have won at the championship event have been engineering supported.

Also, I run both FRC and Intermediate Program teams (formerly FVC/FTC and now VEX). I'm not an engineer, I'm a career educator. We've been successful with the smaller robot and team by being able to inspire students (some of our school's best and brightest) toward those futures you talk about without the FRC experience and without practicing engineers. Some of these students simply do not have the time to devote to FRC or initially feel intimidated by it and the smaller scale has been what captures them in our program. Most of our graduates go on to pursue the type of futures you speak of and only some of them ever experience FRC.

Don't get me wrong, I love engineer exposure for the students. This year, our FRC team has it's first dedicated engineering mentor from Lockheed Martin and it's a true thrill to see him interact with and excite the students! However, if this would be our only approach with Lower Merion students we would inspire fewer on a yearly basis. Also, if we would ever lose funding, space, or support for FRC, we would not have to close the doors on our HS robotics program altogether - we have a safety net "intermediate" program that could take on additional participants if need be.

I was wondering if, with all of your statewide support and lofty goals, your group was considering anything like this for two reasons - sustainability and meaningful engagement of more students in a hands-on way. Your thoughts are appreciated and thank you for offering your insight here.

Namaste,
Rich