Re: GM and Chrysler
 

no one that i know of yet. Here is a list of the current Hybrids and fuel efficiency (from www.hybridSUV.com)
Hybrid Vehicle Gas Mileage Estimates (city/hwy)
(2007 & 2008 Hybrid SUV models)

34/30 mpg: 2008 Mazda Tribute (AWD)
34/30 mpg: 2008 Ford Escape (AWD)
34/30 mpg: 2008 Mercury Mariner (4WD)
27/32 mpg: 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line (2WD)
27/25 mpg: 2008 Toyota Highlander (AWD)
26/24 mpg: 2008 Lexus 400h (AWD)
21/22 mpg: 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe (2WD)
20/20 mpg: 2008 GMC Yukon (4WD)

IF Chevy is really cutting back on the Volt line, they are more short sighted than I originally thought. The Volt was the one thing i thought they were going to do right. 40 miles before burning any gas would mean most folks wouldn't burn gas on a typical day of driving. That's something I can buy into.

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

After spending a little time stewing over the issue, I think it might be better if we keep this thread relating to the impact the economy and the auto company issues will have on FIRST. I can see this getting nasty if we keep it political, especially with my own knee-jerk responses that some of us may remember...


That being said, I wish Michigan teams the best, and hope they make it through the hard times we have.

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

I also feel that the terms socialism and fascism should not be lumped together so quickly. They are two different things that while often found together are not always a pair. Take much of Europe for example, while more socialist than any thing we in the US are used to they are for the most part definitely not fascist governments.

Carry on

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

If you don't have the money and can't borrow the money, you can't spend the money. GM had to decide to run the plants they have, or shut them down to build the Volt plant. A product, I might note, which is still in the pilot state. They don't know for sure what the reaction to it would be in the marketplace. Can they build it at a cost that will make it profitable to them, and still attractive to the buyers? Going slower on a new unproven product, when you don't know if you can finance it or not, is being fiscally responsible. That's the kind of dilemma the automakers find themselves in. They don't even have enough money in hand for day to day operations; how can they develop new products at the same time?

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

Fun fact:

If New England (Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine) was a single state, it would have roughly the same geographic size and population as Michigan, and would also have about 130+ FRC teams.

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

You think the CEO's have learned their lesson and are now "fiscally responsible?" That's something the best used car salesman would have a hard time unloading. I think there are other reasons for the change in Chevy's plans, but they are far too cynical to post here.

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

I honestly think that GM and Ford would be fiscally sound in a few years if this financial collapse hadn't hurt their ability to do day-to-day business. Both of them have recently managed to develop cars that were or are actually competitive in their class, and have more cars coming. The 2010 Fusion hybrid will be the same size as the Camry Hybrid, but will get substantially improved mileage (5mpg more) on both city and highway. The Cruze will (hopefully) be a practical small car with reasonable power that gets 40mpg through use of direct injection (increases efficiency at part-throttle, which is where cars almost always operate) and turbocharging (increases thermal efficiency overall). The 2010 Equinox, which is going on sale in the new year, manages to do 30mpg highway, which is actually competitive with the HYBRID fuel economy specs posted above.

The idea that the American car companies are the only ones that have done stupid things with a lack of foresight isn't true either: Last year, Toyota finished building a very expensive, all-new plant in Texas. What was this plant producing? The all-new, full-size, Toyota Tundra. What is this plant doing now? It's running at half capacity, producing trucks that nobody wants to buy. So Toyota, lured by the same high-margin trucks that ensnared Detroit, spent years developing the Tundra and building a plant for it, only to get nailed by the gas price spike and subsequent economic collapse.

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

Craig, on most topics I would agree with you but this isnt foreign affairs, this isnt some overly politicized discussion about religion. This is something that immediately affects every single one of us. I dont care where you work if the auto companies fail catastrophically the entire economy will ripple. Plus, open discussion should always be encouraged. Perhaps a mod should watch this thread so that if people start getting too passionate we can close it down before feelings get hurt though.

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

My wife bought a new Chevy truck today, so I guess we did our part...

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

I know this is a little off topic but i find this hilarious because according to the FIRST website, there are 133 FRC teams in Michigan!!! California has 146.

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

Well, there is one built.:)
https://www.chryslerllc.com/en/innov...FRIfDQod-AJhCw

In the combined cycle it is calculated that this Wrangler would get approximately: 40-50mpg averaging. Not bad for the aero-dynamics of a brick.

Unfortunately it will be difficult to turn a profit on it until the price of its components come down.:(

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

DUDE!:yikes: could you imagine rock crawling with electric motors?!?!? Where does the front of the line start? :D

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

[quote=Bongle;786382]
Delphi has been in bankruptcy proceedings for years, and yet here we are discussing it on a ChiefDelphi site.QUOTE]

Bongle - In case you hadn't noticed, a couple of years ago we (the leadership team) of ChiefDelphi robotics decided to seek funding in the form of banner ads and donations, in order to continue this website. This site is funded and sponsored by Innovation FIRST Inc. For which, we are ever so much thankful. The money that most Delphi sponsored teams recieve is pretty modest now, and it goes directly to FIRST in an account for the teams to use for registration purposes.

Delphi (while still trying to get out of Chapter 11) has graciously decided to continue sponsoring FIRST robotics, as part of their overall community involvement. They have substantially reduced spending in many other programs. Thankfully, they continue to support FIRST in these difficult times.

Now, back to the topic at hand.
GM and Chrysler - 2 of my favorite companies to provide components to.
I wish both well, and hope they keep buying our power access systems.

Mike Aubry
(previously Delphi, now STRATTEC Power Access)

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

What Mike refers to is Delphi's contribution to its FIRST teams on a corporate level. I believe this funding actually comes from their charitable foundation, and it has been a welcome help to our team! For Team 48 anyway, this is the 2nd year we've received such funding. Throughout our entire existence, though, we've been funded by Delphi at the local divisional level. This funding has steadily decreased over the years as well, but it's still there, and we continue to be most appreciative of our local leadership for continuing to fund the program through even the roughest of economic times. I think some other Delphi teams have not been as fortunate in retaining local support.

My "book" is much longer than IKE's. :rolleyes:

I want to provide a few comments on your statements here. I do not want the FIRST community to lump all "auto industry sponsored teams", a group that is quite a bit larger than merely the Big Three-sponsored teams, into a single generalized characterization - I feel that is unfair. Each team is funded by its own unique combination of corporate, school, fundraising, and other sources.

Let's remember that the potential collapse of the American auto industry has a much farther reaching impact than simply the residents of the state of Michigan. While I know you are only speaking on behalf of your local brethren, we shouldn't characterize the problem as being confined to a single state. The economies of dozens of cities and towns nationwide, as well as a large percentage of the families resident within them, depend in large part on the auto industry presence within their communities. Warren, home of Team 48, is one such town. GM Lordstown (producer of the Chevy Cobalt) and, to a lesser degree, the Delphi Packard E/EA facilities here contribute a giant chunk to the local economy. Without the worker wages and salaries paid by these auto industry companies, people lose jobs, lose homes, go on unemployment, stop spending money at local businesses - grocery stores, restaurants, car dealerships, entertainment venues, etc. It's a vicious downward spiral I'd rather not have my community experience, and I'm sure the millions of others living in similar communities across the nation agree with me. So let's call it what it is - a truly nationwide crisis, and a truly nationwide threat if people of influence don't work together to stabilize and reform this industry.

Here in my neck of the woods, Delphi has been in a long term restructuring phase for many years now. This has led to a significant reduction in the local hourly and salaried workforce. The community has absorbed these losses up til now, but you can still see the effects - people moving away - more homes, cars, etc. up for sale. More closed storefronts. Increased unemployment. These problems have only increased in the past year as Delphi has had to react to the struggles of the Big Three - this is all placing quite an added strain on the affected communities and the employees who remain.

Team 48 has not been immune to these budgetary cutbacks locally, and we're ok with that - we're just happy Delphi officially continues to support the team. We don't have to worry about any "large auto industry-sponsored budget" disappearing, because we haven't had one of those since the last millenium, as we've seen double-digit percentage point cutbacks for years, even before the initial days of Delphi bankruptcy. Our local school district is actually the team's primary sponsor and has been for most of my tenure on the team. Our local executive leadership, the ones responsible for setting our corporate team sponsorship levels, could have chosen to hack us completely to save more money; instead, they saw the value of Team 48 to the local educational community and merely asked us to share in the same burden of reductions all other areas of the local company have been facing. We gladly obliged and, like most FRC teams, have worked hard to make the most of the money we are fortunate to receive. We attend more events now and extend more outreach to other local teams now than we ever did back in the days of bigger budgets. We also are far more successful at fundraising than we ever were in the "days of yore". I like to think that despite all the cuts the team has faced over the years, we've still found ways to become more efficient and productive as the seasons roll by.

But enough about money - an FRC team's success is not primarily fueled by a team's bankroll; moreso, it is the efforts of its HUMAN capital that generates a return on student investment in the program. It is the threat of a devastating loss of dozens of auto industry FIRST mentors that concerns me far more than the loss of corporate-sponsored funding. It's relatively easy for a company to donate $1000 at a team - just write a check. Ask them to identify an engineer willing to mentor your team for 4+ months out of the season during these hard economic times, however, and a positive response is far less likely.

I'd suggest that a dwindling mentor base has been a trend that has been a part of many (but not all) auto industry teams for years. It is definitely something that has touched Team 48. Companies that are restructuring - that cannot afford to hire to bring in new, eager young engineering mentors, that have had to suspend the majority of their intern/co-op program, that have asked those employees who haven't left to take on even more responsibilities at work - these are not companies that have a large pool of eager, willing volunteer employees for their sponsored robotics teams. Add in the many team mentors who get older, start families, have more to do at work, and have to conserve gas and money and time formerly devoted to volunteer work, and what you often see is a team mentorship group that slowly evaporates due to attrition, with those still willing to fight the good fight piling up added stress as they attempt to keep their team pointed in the right direction.

A complete auto industry collapse could deal a crushing blow to the employee mentor support that remains on auto industry-sponsored teams. Mentors losing jobs, forced relocations, etc. - it would be extremely difficult and painful for many to continue mentoring. Let's be realistic - regardless of how much one has invested in this program, supporting the local FRC team would be pretty far down the list of priorities for any employees displaced by an industry collapse and facing life-changing events.

In the face of this uncertainty, I think the potentially-affected FRC teams must challenge themselves to "diversify" their funding and mentorship base - to identify funding support and fundraising efforts that supplement the existing budget, to seek out mentors from additional community businesses - to not leave all their funding and mentorship eggs in a single basket. Many auto industry mentors, including those on Team 48, have been suggesting this to their schools and teams for years now. Those who have not yet taken these steps risk taking a huge blow to their team operations should the worst occur.

No one wants to think about these "what ifs"; many unfortunately avoid dealing with them until it is too late. Some wish that students not be exposed to these "real world" matters and all the "blah" surrounding them. I say that is folly. To all teams potentially affected by "the worst case scenario" actually happening, please be proactive in addressing the sustainability of your team now. In the best case, you will retain the auto industry mentors you have, but you will have diversified both your funding and your mentoring sources - I think that is a goal that every FRC team should strive for.

And to those students mentored by auto industry volunteers (and perhaps this applies to all FIRST students and their mentors in general) - please keep in mind that many of your mentors may be dealing with a lot of additional background stress you do not know about because they keep it close to the vest - consider taking a bit of additional time each day and spend it on making their mentoring jobs just a wee bit easier. Be sure to involve your classmates and remind them of this, too. Brainstorm on ways to make the team more efficient and self-reliant in the absence of the mentors - surprise them with just how much more the team accomplished on its own since the last time they were in the shop. Find new and creative ways to thank them for their efforts. Show them you care about what they do. Do more to give your mentors a greater return on their investment in your lives.

Many mentors view our FIRST activities and our time with our student teammates as an oasis where we can temporarily escape from the stresses of the workplace. I don't expect students to fan us mentors with palm fronds and feed us grapes one at a time, but I think you get the picture - please help make our time with our teams as enjoyable and meaningful as possible - help us forget all the "ick" we have to deal with elsewhere. FIRST is ideally an "ick"-free zone - let's try to keep it that way!

Thank you for enduring my encyclopedic post. Best of luck to all auto industry brethren as we attempt to ride out this storm together.

Re: GM and Chrysler
 

The views of Travis Hoffman do not reflect the views of all mentors.