Interesting Newsletter from NI
 

So I'm subscribes to NI's Email Newsletter. and the issue i received today caught my attention.

Controlling an underwater ROV With LabVIEW

Maybe FIRST switched to NI so a water game would be easier?

...Forest

*I know it probably will never happen but it's the rumor mill so why not

Re: Interesting Newsletter from NI
 

Obligatory "it'll never happen, if it does i'll eat a battery" post.

Also obligatory "imagine how much work it'll take to setup a giant aquarium at each regional for 4 days then draining and dismantling" statement.

Re: Interesting Newsletter from NI
 

actually it wouldent be that hard just make a square and fill it with water and draining wouldent be a problem because most arenas have drains in the floor

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Where does the water come from? How deep? Dimensions? Can the drains handle it? How long to fill/empty?

Also, a square cannot hold much water. It takes a 3D structure to do that (if it weren't for surface tension).

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Lets talk semantics...

6' x 24' x 48' aquarium holds exactly 6912 feet cubed of water. That equals about 52,000 gallons of water. Your standard water hose does about 10 gallons per minute. So lets say one hose is to fill that giant cube? It would take it 5,200 minutes, or about 3 days.

So lets say we were to bring in a firetruck hose and tapped into an emergency fire hydrant sorce. It would take just about 70 minutes to fill that cube. That cube would then weigh 182 tons. Thats a lot of water.

Now the field must be deconstructable, because you have to move the field from regional to regional. To make this aquarium you can't just bolt 1" thick plexi together. You'd have to glue it, so it wouldn't be reusable. The price of the playing field would be incredible to have to buy 48' x 6' and 24' x 6' sheets, especially plexi thick enough to support 182 tons of water. And not just buy 8 or so of those, but by a whole new aquarium per regional to glue together.

A water game is just too expensive for FIRST to be doing. That is, unless they shrunk the field back to 1993 proportions and made the bots 12" x 12"

Also making a waterproof bot is an INCREDIBLY daunting task for any FIRST team to be doing. To make an ROV that is lets say 26" x 36" would be getting into tens of thousands of dollars. ROV's are incredibly expensive to make and maintain, especially those that are designed to do a task, even those as simple as picking stuff up. We can create rolling robots that can pick up giant balls and shoot them for under a thousand dollars, to be picking up something as small as jewelry with a large ROV could cost a team easily over 10,000 dollars.

Of course you can always make a boat type game, which would take away the 3d aspect of a watergame. But if you are going to do a boating game, then why not just play the same thing on land? Cheaper to build the field, easier to build the field, less mess, less cost for the teams and FIRST.

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well most universitys have some sort of retention pond or lake nearby and unless its frozen its easy to get a pump and pump in and out water


it dosent have to be that deep just 4-5 feet just enough so that the robots would be able to submerge completely




and a boat type game would be even easier

and for rookie teams it would probobly be as complex or maybe even simpler than having to build a land vehicle because you dont have to deal with wheels and weight


it would de easy enough for first to supply a modified kitbot type thing to make a flat bottomed boat

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Bouyancy is still an issue, and you'll be even less stable in water than you would be on land. CoG plays a much much bigger role in a water game than it does on land because if you tip over on land, you just flip the bot back over. If you capsize the bot in water, all your electronics and motors just went for a drink...

In the end, $$$$$$$ will prevent a water game. I couldn't imagine the frustration in the pits when 5 or so teams are out of the competition on friday alone because their electronics wasn't waterproof to the point that it could take total submergance.

A water game is just too hard to build a bot for in 6 weeks for all but the best teams. If you want to make FIRST an elitist competition, then go for a water game with brand new electronics and coding. If you want FIRST to be available for all to compete, then you simply cannot do a water game.

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My university doesn't have a holding pond... What about sports arenas? Most of those don't (and many competitions aren't held at universities--good luck in Atlanta).

Rookies have a hard enough time moving on land. Now, add water. You do have to deal with weight, you have to deal with water, you have buoyancy, CG, center of moment...

Fluids class, anyone?

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well maybe its just florida?


anyways id just like a bigger challenge than this year the least they could have done was add a ramp underneath the overpass or allow you to score on both sides

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I hate to ruin everyones fantasies of a water game, but NI and LabView are also used in underwater robotics competitions such as AUVSI. There a lot of collegiate teams in these competitions that use LabView.

Lets face it, the logistical problems connected to a water game are far too great.

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Oh yeah, let's fill it with dirty muck.

And remember, several event venues have an expensive wooden basketball court under the field. Whether it would hold up to the weight is doubtful - who wants field-sized dents in their floor, let alone having it smash through to the foundation. But no one in their right mind would allow a tank on their hardwood. Even if it didn't leak, those robots come out dripping wet.

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I've never understood why the water discussion is always the field. It would be interesting as a game piece or a small part of the field but not necessarily the field, itself.

Being the field just doesn't hold water.

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Jane,

I thought of this at least a couple of years ago, but I didn't post because I didn't want to give Dave any fiendish ideas. He has enough without our help.

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ooooo O.O - sorry Chris, Gary's fault. He started with the dirty muck, I lost control...

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well its not suppsed to have rotting sewage in it!

why would they leave the wooden court out it rolls up you know

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Was that a fiendish grin that I imagine Dave just had...:rolleyes:

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You don't exactly roll up a hardwood floor, the "cushion" underneath it, and everything else overnight.

Hockey arenas are easier--put something over the ice, or melt it and drain it. Not many events are in hockey arenas, though.

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i think theres a machine that does it in like 30 minutes ill have to look it up its like a zamboni only smaller

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Let's be pragmatic. You won't see a water game from FIRST.

Why?

...There are other competitions that deal with water.

...Water is too much trouble for all the competitions and offseason events.

...Everything moves so much slower in water, so any competitive game would be either long or boring.

...Competitions in places in severe drought with water bans in effect would be screwed.

...Water is heavy. Unless the area was designed specifically to hold vast quantities of water, structural issues may come into play.

...Leaks

Is it possible? Yes. Are the hurdles to jump high? Very. Would a water game provide a level of inspiration equal or grater than the increase in effort necessary to pull it off? Probably not.

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Logistics of A Water Game...

1) Many venues simply wouldn't allow a water game
A) Many of the venues used for FRC competitions are also used for other sports, including Ice Hockey. The equipment used to produce ice under the FRC provided flooring would not be very tolerant of a vast amount of weight "water" in a concentrated area (Soverign Bank Arena).
B) No collegiate organization is goining to risk water exposure to their very expensive wood courts (which by the way don't always "roll up")
2) It would make off-season competitions nearly impossible.
A) I know this wouldn't go over very well with our School District.
3) Impracticality of being able to test the robot before ship

Just a few thoughts from a non-engineering mentor, who knoews a little about venues and their restrictions...

Although a water game would be interesting!!! I once water proofed a remote control car, put and extended floating antenna, attached a dewalt drill motor, and an underwater camera, and drove it through a creek... Should have saved that video!!!

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How about using a hockey arena? I'm sure ice would be quite the obstacle, and there wouldn't be as much worry about putting studs in the wheels.

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I had an idea instead of the robot having to be in the water maybe the robot could carry water.

I could see a bucket brigade game where the robots have to carry water from a tank at one end to the other end.

Or we could have robotic firemen as a bigger version of the lego games.
It would be interesting if the camera coming with the KOP can see infrared and if Labview can handle it.

Brent

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That is an interesting idea, but I wonder what the playing field will be covered with, tile?

Certainly couldn't do it with carpet

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Psh, you're all wrong anyway...the next game is in space.;)

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Wow, for a group that thinks "outside the box" I'm pretty disappointed.

Think Pool. Think SWIMMING Pool. Think Olympic sized swimming pool. Think Pool at a place that has a decent swimming program so there is stands for lots of fans. Think of the finals at a Pool that was big enough to hold the Olympics at, space for even more fans. Think of underwater video to see the action on the big screen.

The venue is easy!

I think an water game would be great!

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swimming pool would be easiest but it would have to be inside even more so up north

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You fail to realize that hundreds of teams are lacking in money due to pulled sponsorships with this economy, and functional ROV's are easily, EASILY anywhere from 3 to 10 times more expensive than our normal land bots.

No team can afford to build an ROV of this kind of size (28" x 38"). If they were to decrease the robot dimensions to make this sort of game feasible i'd consider it an extreme step down for FIRST.

Also correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't the bots have to be tethered? I'm not sure how well radio signals travel through something like water. I think the higher the frequency the worse it travels through water, so we'd have to be on some super low frequency channels to play with an untethered bot. I'm not sure there is enough bandwith to control a robot at those frequencies.

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You might want to talk to team 842 about the technicalities of building an ROV for competition. They run an underwater robotics event. More details at www.h2orobots.org ...

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Hey thats pretty nifty, though since there is already a ROV competition, I see little need for FIRST to have a ROV game.

Price wise I guess it could be affordable if the KoP came with the waterproofing things neccessary for motors and electronics.

Though I couldn't imagine the new headaches for all the teams out there.. it'd be one heckuva regional thats for sure.

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Water game wont happen, especially next year. Too many new hurdles to overcome. New competition structure in MI, new controller, economy sucking...etc.

Is a water game POSSIBLE? Yes. 842 has been doing it for a few years now. Will it provide as much inspiration? Probably, again ask 842. Would it be as good for the media? Oh no, water slows everything WAY DOWN. The excitement of FIRST (which is what makes it television worthy) is in that speed, in the glare of the metal on the gripper as it raises a 10 lb ball 8 feet in the air in under 2 seconds. That is exciting. A game where robots are moving 2 fps under 10 feet of water where you can barely see them? Im sorry but thats the real reason why a water game will never happen, its not marketable. This is why Dave keeps suggesting it, he clearly isnt a marketing guy :p

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I am also a swimmer so here is my pool knowledge
1 Most places don't have Olympic pools in their area, and any team that does wont be willing to give up training for 3 days.

2 Any places that do have these often don't have as large of stands as you are looking for.

3 Many of the pools don't have enough room for pits around them, or in an adjoining building.

4 All of FIRSTS fancy video equipment and electronics don't mix with water very well. and due to limited space they would not do very well in the high humidity.

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1 Most places don't have Olympic pools in their area, and any team that does wont be willing to give up training for 3 days.

Only need the Olympic size pool for the competition. Lots of other options for practice.


2 Any places that do have these often don't have as large of stands as you are looking for.

Not much to see from a stand anyway. However, there is a lot of video opportunities to see what is going on. We use a lot of underwater cameras and, of course, there is the video from the ROV itself.
We display the video with an announcer describing what is going on as well as a "pool side" commentator.
Not only do the 200-500 people on site watch, but we also webcast the video live so many others around the world watch also.

3 Many of the pools don't have enough room for pits around them, or in an adjoining building.

Our pit area is in a cafeteria building. No problem

4 All of FIRSTS fancy video equipment and electronics don't mix with water very well. and due to limited space they would not do very well in the high humidity.

No problem

Here is a link to a Youtube video. It starts with the "Problem video" and then shows one teams effort in "fast time". the video was edited by someone in Europe from the webcast feed. It was weird to clean up after the event and go home and see that it was already being circulated.

I can't see FIRST doing an underwater competition, but I can see FIRST teams competing in an underwater competition.

We will be announcing the 2009 competition on October 31 http://www.h2orobots.org/

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I don't believe I've ever seen a venue that has 4 pools, so that 4 divisions could be run simultaneously. Not having a place for the Championship kinda puts a damper on the whole season.

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In 2005 and 2006 we competed in the Neutral Buoyancy Lab at the Johnson Space Center. I think there were 6 events going on at once.

Depending on the tasks, multiple events can be going on simultaneously in one pool. Next June we will have two going on at a time. Four would not really be a big problem.

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How would teams conduct repairs/servicing?

(Sorry, can't watch the video from school computers.)

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Well, every team has a pit area. At our competition, each team has one 30 minute mission instead of multiple 2 1/4 minute missions. (although it could be different in future competitions)

Sometimes there are failures during a mission and the team has to attempt repairs while the clock is running (like NASCAR).

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Why mess with water? How about small pellets instead? One would need a shop vac to clean up afterwards, but it wouldn't get everything wet. OK, I know that getting everthing wet is the whole idea of where this thread is going, but ...