FRC Game in 2009
 

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what the FRC game will be this year? I say it will be a variation of baseball, with a swinging bat type mechanism.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=69502
-Or-
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=69233

Contain some really funny ideas. I'd suggest posting in there instead of starting a new thread.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Yes, we all do.

Oh, and a water game.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

well we are supposed to have cameras so we started brain storming like this corn maze that we can't see but the crowd can see and we have to drive around using a camera on the robot. (just a thought probally not gunna happen ((THIS year at least lol)))

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

What? You mean like the one Beatty has been perfecting? ;)

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

All I got to say is that our regional director was asking to borrow my schools natatorium . .yes I am serious.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Regional Directors don't have much to do with game design.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

but they do have to organize a venue . . lol no I dont know why she wanted the pool, but it came on the same day that some of the students were talking about past years games and what to expect in this years game to some new mentors. I had a good laugh.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Whatever the challenge is, expect very little programming challenge. I don't think FIRST is going to push teams abilities to figure out the new controller, lab view, and on top of that come up with crafty code all in the same season.

The game... hmm. I think this is going to be another game requiring manipulation of big objects way up high, like Triple Play.

-Alex

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Usually when FIRST introduces new technology they expect us to use it.

I guarantee you there will be some mega-bonus for doing something fancy in auton/hybrid with the new controller.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Im not so sure about this, why not, isnt the idea of going to the new system to make things easier. More power and less importance emphasized on the nitty gritty of the processor and more top level coding?
We maybe doing something complex compared to previous years and systems, but i feel that because of this shift to a new system we will be doing a whole lot more than we have in the past years in terms of coding.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

i beleive this will be the roughest:yikes:

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Label me a realist if you will, but it's all speculation till we find out what the game is.

-q

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Funny that you should mention Triple-Play and the controller in the same post.

The last time they added a major piece of hardware (the camera ... during Triple-Play), they asked us to try and find a non-illuminated, non-fixed position, non-fixed-orientation, target ... pick it up and put it on a structure. Yeah, they won't challange us programming wise :rolleyes:

I actually expect this year to have an easy programming game (for those that have trouble programming) with high bonus points for autonomous quests completed (real programming challanges).

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

The only thing that i can say for sure is that the innovation in control award is either gonna be taken by someone very deep on the ins with labview or else someone with one more switch than the rest only because the programming with labview is fairly simple *in theory*

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

The last change to the controller was 2004 and there was very little autonomous bonus for knocking off the balls on the Tees, all that would happen the balls from above would drop down a few seconds earlier than normal and a 5 pt ball could be put in play (but I never saw it used). Hardly a mega-bonus.

The introduction of the camera in 2005 - upped the ante a bit with the vision tetra - but again, not much advantage and probably the most boring autonomous they've made yet. Only a handful of teams across the nation managed to get the vision tetra, most of the rest of auto-mode capable bots just knocked down the hanging tetra or moved into position. BORING!!

So I'm not predicting a huge mega-bonus for autonomous this year. I think the game will rely heavily on mechanical design and functionality and from the tip on Bill's Blog - the standard frames/bases and drive systems teams are getting used to will most likey need to be modified this year. We've had 4 YEARS of a FLAT FIELD - I bet this year there will be some kind of structure on the field the robots most get over OR get under. Ramp / Stepped Platform / Low Overhead bar or some combination of these. In 2001 they had the teeter totter but on both sides of that they had a 4" high step with a 14" high bar above it. It should be exciting to see what January will bring!!

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

I think the game will be something that can be made easier if you take advantage of what the cRIO can do. Being my team's main programmer, I think this will be one interesting year for me.

As a side note, Dave Lavery should be sending another red herring our way any minute now...

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Did you see PINK's auton that year? Very little was boring about it, they picked up two tetras autonomously, honestly that and 910's double keeper in 2007 rank among my favorite auton plays of all time

However, I do have to note a trend towards decreasing the value of autonomous. 2006 had quite possibly the most influential auton ever, a lot of matches were won and lost purely on auton. Seeing a year like that would make me happy.But seeing the trend FIRST has been taking towards leveling the playing field I agree that we will most likely NOT see major bonuses for auton this year simply due to the issues most teams will have getting anything to work. I expect the day after we get our control systems CD will be full of people asking how it works. (On this topic, please do not name threads, "Help!!! URGENT!!!!!!1")

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

My Boring Statement had to do with watching 98% of teams do nothing or just simply knocking down a hanging tetra. PINK was in our division at nat's that year and their auto was hands down awesome.

2007 auto was fun, but just didn't get enough value - so often teams didn't even bother.

I think last years auto would be a good predictor for what we might see next year. I mean most teams had their robot at least drive across one line and often two. That in itself was fun to watch. Then there were the Masters class of bots knocking one or more balls and driving a lap. 2006 was similar as well, many teams good come up with a defense drive auto mode or a simple ball dump in the low goal. However if a top team put 8-10 balls in the top goal in auto - they won most of the time. Heck when we put 8-10 balls in the top goal in regular match play, we won most of the time.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Does that mean that 2008's auton's were the best yet?

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

This is all somewhat subjective anyhow - but as a fan, my favorite auto modes have been,

1) 2003 - Stack Attack - A race to get to the top of the ramp first and knock the stack over was very fun to watch. Many teams had success and made the first 15 seconds very exciting. In fact with that game the first 15 seconds and the last 15 seconds were the best parts.

2) 2006 - Aim High - So much variety in auto modes. Defensive modes that just drove across the field and hoped to hit another bot. Offensive ball dumpers that put 10 balls in the low goal. And for some they could actually score in the high goal.

3) 2008 - Overdrive - Watching the progression in auto modes in each match was so cool. In the first few matches not a lot, but by the elimination rounds on Saturday, teams could do several lines and a few could knock down a ball. Just seeing almost all the bots participate in the hybrid period was cool.

So I don't rate 2008 as the best - but probably the most simplest one to get something done for almost all the teams.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

The problem with this idea is that FIRST didn't give us any type of a monitor to view what the camera is seeing, and I doubt that they expect each team to buy their own.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Really? You've seen the 2009 kit and know that there is no monitor in there?

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

I am new to first, however I have been using LabView for a while at my job and I have a few things to say about it.

1) It is an extremely powerful development environment. Programming in LV may take a while to learn, however once you understand the programming structure, it is much faster to do complex tasks then a similar C or C++ application is.
2) The FRC version of LabView is not, from what I can see, limited, and includes several expensive toolkits including NI Vision.

You are basically limited by hardware constraints and your imagination only. For my work (electrical engineering, RF) I have used labview quite extensively. It would be relatively simple to create a program that searched for objects of various shapes, sizes or colors. It would not be much harder to drive up to them and get a closer picture. Perhaps read a sign and follow its instructions (OCR vi's come in NI Vision that make character recognition straight-forward) or do some complex pattern recognition to sort objects into categories from the field.

Some limitation will be camera focus - I'm not sure if the camera for 2009 supports controlling focus via software - which would be necessary for reading close up text, barcodes, etc.

I know that building a FRC "robot" is challenge enough when it is remotely operated - but I think LabView will make autonomous actions much more feasible and maybe someday FRC will become an all autonomous competition.

For those of you who don't know it: The robot can be programmed remotely via the driver station and a laptop. This also means you can build a frontend on the laptop, e.g. any kind of control station you want on the laptop to give visual feedback or run pre-programmed drive loops or whatever the rules allow. Out of the box you can start a new LV benchtop vi that lets you see what the camera sees and all the analog, digital, pwm, and battery states directly on a laptop.

And perhaps next year when they enable the advanced functionality of the motor controllers-you will be able create feedback loops-and combine this with internal and external sensors (think gyroscopic sensor + accelerometer) and you can have much greater motor control, similar to what is used by Honda and others to build walking, upright android robots.

This kit your receiving is very much a professional, industry standard setup, if you go into electrical engineering / control systems engineering, you can expect to see much of the same software and equipment at your job.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

you have a point.........

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Considering the control system is new, I agree that FIRST wont do something radical with the game design this year. I'm getting a feeling that 2010 gonna be a radical design shift. My predicion is it's probaly be some game involving throwing some sort of object.(I know, I'm not being specific here but that's all I have at the monment.)

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

The first hint was posted for what 2009's competition might be:
http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc....aspx?id=11310
its a fish.
could this be hinting a a water robot? a submarine? :eek:

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

No you just flop around on the course like a fish out of watter :P

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Notice that the picture is of a fish out of water. Not in the water. What does this mean? Maybe it is just my imagination. Any thoughts?

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

If you look closely at the background, there's a watermarked shape and some text... its hard to read, i think there are a couple of pages stacked on top of each other... the newspaper that fish is wrapped in maybe?

I think the game will work like a fish market, you have to throw slippery fish into buckets...

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Noticed on the first page of the game hint thread...

I would suggest that any discussion of the game hint be kept in that thread.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Yeah, good call. Maybe people will stop thinking water game. FIRST robots and water... that doesn't sound like the safest idea. But i think it would suggest an unnatural environment for a robot, driver, human player, etc. Can someone say OBSTACLE COURSE!! That would be awesome. :]

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

This much makes sense, because if you look at the games, there is usually something in common between one season and the next.
Stack Attack-had ramps
Aim High- hand ramps, and balls which had to go up high
The Next Game (forgot the name of it)- had to put stuff up high again, and bonus points for being elevated at the end
Overdrive- had balls again, and they were up high
So, I'm thinking that 2009 will have to do with something being up high again, and the obstacle course sounds about right, and possibly a circular portion of the playing field?

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Okay... but how would the fish come into play?

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

i think this years mission would have to do with under water.
but another idea that would be cool is something to do with rocks!
cant wait until Kickoff!!!

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

when we got the new control system and opened the box, we took everything out. When we found the camera the first thing we did was Google if the fish lived in caves or not. Apparently it doesn't, but if it did we thought possibly the robot had to go behind some sort of thing that blocks the drivers view like a curtain or something and have an obstacle course on the other side or some sort of task.......but the fish lives in open water......

EDIT: this is my first post with that sig, so I was kinda testing it. Its a bit big, I know. I'm downsizing it.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

as part of a beta team..... i noticed significant delay when using the camera and driving at the same time(sending back images while sending in joystick data) so the thought of driving while looking at a monitor seeing what your camera can see is a nice one but at the time is not reality....

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Was it a bandwidth issue? Is it possible that by lowering the resolution of the images or lowering the framerate you'd be able to drive by camera?

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

What about a game with pool noodles. You would have to gather them from an overhead storage area or off the floor and put them through holes in the player stations. I saw a similar idea on a FIRST chatroom somewhere and refined it (if you can call it that). What do you think?

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

That sounds obnoxious. And noodles, as our team discovered with the mandatory bumper requirements, painful for the teams who live in colder climates to find in the middle of January.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

I guess it will be 3 mission :
A. hung something like the fish in the circle
B. hang sum thing to the filed using the cam camera and it is like the fish is moving not n one place
C. giving the anther robot help
Team 1946 mohamed abu Fawdah
Attachment 7065
http://tamra-afr.tk/

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

well, getting the pool boodles wouldn't be a problem for most teams as several would be supplied in the KOP (game pieces always are). If your team wanted more then it might be a problem. FIRST would probably find a supplier for the competitions where they would need large quantities. They could also be only 2-foot or so sections of noodle. And believe me, I know how hard it is to find pool noodles in the winter, I live in Maryland.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

No they aren't. I believe it was the Poof balls that were an extra-cost option.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

oh.. i thought it was an included thing. I was a freshman that year so i wasn't "in" on the finances of our club so you could be right.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

i think that the fish represents scales, like the vex competition. in the second hint, minnetonka is a lake. i dont know what central in phoenix. the other two places are theatres, like performing arts. i dont know what this means. one of the mentors for my team says the game has something to do with zabonies.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Not according to my memory. I'm pretty sure we got them in the kit. You could buy extras locally, but every year my team has received the game piece in the KOP.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Baseball is a bit too structured to work in the 2:20 madcap world that is a FIRST round. But how about cricket? It could work sort of like Aim High, except on the ground. Maybe something like this:

-Team A has ball, aims for target behind Team B (big points for hitting it)
-Team B tries to hit ball, then travel between two points, gaining points each time they do-however, Team A can hit target during that time unless Team B's robots are near it
-Eventually, teams switch like in Aim High-last "free-for-all" period not necessary, though

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Yep the 2006 KOP included 1 poofball, at least thats what the KOP checklist said.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

OK, I stand corrected. We evidently were offered a deal to purchase additional balls.

For Triple Play, you had to build your own tetras, but they gave you the end caps.

Re: FRC Game in 2009
 

Yes, we were... AFTER New England ran completely out of them. Be quick to pick up the pieces if there's a lot of them! (See http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=41367)

Every year, you are given 1 of the game pieces and then have the option to buy more. Most teams do. (I think the exception was 2003--those bins would have been hard to fit in the KOP!)