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-   -   Anyone install windriver on linux yet? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70449)

keen101 09-12-2008 01:37
Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
I was just wondering if anyone has successfully installed WindRiver on a Linux machine yet?

My team hasn't gotten our software yet, as we just paid right before the deadline. I am particular interested in it successfully being installed on Debian based systems, however any Linux success is relevant too. Please post any failures, confusion, and especially success stories.

also I've heard there is a version of labview that runs on linux now, anyone using that?

-Andrew
(keen101)

bagawk 09-12-2008 02:46
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
I have it installed with ubuntu as host OS. It is not "supported" but seems to be fine. My team has not received the kit yet, but will see how it goes then.

Before I installed windriver workbench, I looked into building a GNU toolchain. Unfortunately I was not able to get gcc to completely build.
For those that want to continue on that route, you will need to download headers for vxworks. National instrument provides this for vxworks 6.1 and 6.3 (no idea what is on the controller we get from first). http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/5694
You can build binutils with the target powerpc-wrs-vxworks just fine. Trying to build gcc I had major issues relating to the headers.

Another alternative would be to use the compiler provided in workbench and create some makefiles. Not my preferred route, but it should work okay.

AustinSchuh 09-12-2008 14:44
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bagawk (Post 781384)
I have it installed with ubuntu as host OS. It is not "supported" but seems to be fine.
I'm not quite following what you did, and I consider myself pretty proficient with Linux. What do you mean by "host OS"? Normally when people use the term "host OS", they are talking about virtual machines,.and generally also use the term "guest OS" to describe what the "host OS" is hosting.

As for me, as soon as I get my hands on the compiler suite, I am going to first install it under WINE and play with it that way. After I get it working under Wine with Makefiles, I'll see about running it naively if performance is actually a problem. No sense in spending a couple of days in order to shave 1 second off compile time. Does anyone know much about how the Debugger works? If it uses standard gdb network protocols, we might be able to just use gdb or one of it's graphical interfaces like ddd to be able to debug code under Linux.

Along those lines, does anyone know where to get the compiler suite besides from the kit?

jtdowney 09-12-2008 15:12
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSchuh (Post 781524)
I'm not quite following what you did, and I consider myself pretty proficient with Linux. What do you mean by "host OS"? Normally when people use the term "host OS", they are talking about virtual machines,.and generally also use the term "guest OS" to describe what the "host OS" is hosting.
I believe he was referring to cross-compiling which uses the terms host architecture (probably i686-pc-linux-gnu or x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) and target architecture (I think it is PPC603gnu now).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSchuh (Post 781524)
Along those lines, does anyone know where to get the compiler suite besides from the kit?
I was only able to get it using the CD or by downloading their evaluation product. It may be based on GCC but AKAIK it is not free.

keen101 11-12-2008 05:58
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Cool. I'm anxious to hear more success stories with Linux and windriver. I don't think it will work very well under WINE, but that's my opinion.

on another note... i successfully got Labview to work on Ubuntu Linux. The price is pretty steep, so most teams won't be able to afford it. Our team really can't afford it either if you want to know the truth. Anyway, the hardest part was converting the .RPM packages to .DEB files, but i sucessfully did it with "alien".

feel free to email me with specific questions regarding Labview under Ubuntu. I can even try to help look for some sort of discounts if you are really drooling to get labview working under ubuntu. It is much faster under linux. :D

ay2b 11-12-2008 13:44
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keen101 (Post 782352)
on another note... i successfully got Labview to work on Ubuntu Linux. The price is pretty steep, so most teams won't be able to afford it. Our team really can't afford it either if you want to know the truth. Anyway, the hardest part was converting the .RPM packages to .DEB files, but i sucessfully did it with "alien".

feel free to email me with specific questions regarding Labview under Ubuntu. I can even try to help look for some sort of discounts if you are really drooling to get labview working under ubuntu. It is much faster under linux. :D
It would be great if you could write up a HOWTO with specific instructions. Did you end up buying the commercial version of LabView? That's what it sounds like from your price comment. Do you have all of the FIRST-specific VIs working?

keen101 15-12-2008 17:56
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay2b (Post 782515)
It would be great if you could write up a HOWTO with specific instructions. Did you end up buying the commercial version of LabView? That's what it sounds like from your price comment. Do you have all of the FIRST-specific VIs working?
Yeah, I'd be happy to write a how-to once i get the official FRC version on LabVIEW for Linux. To answer the question about the money, we were seriously considering buying the commercial version (maybe not I'll never know really, maybe it was just a fools dream), I was running a trial version of Labview for Linux and had got that running on Ubuntu.

But, i found this today so we will request it.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...56&postcount=9

I haven't tried any of the Vi's yet, and if NI hadn't been willing to ship Linux versions by request, I'd probably have never been able to manage getting everything to work. As i understand it many things are different in the FRC version, especially the Real-Time module and some other drivers.

daltore 15-12-2008 23:30
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Also, no matter what operating system you're running, they're having issues with a bug in the FRC version that modifies a file shared between all LabView installations on the machine incorrectly, therefore resulting in data that's unusable by all installations. Uninstall all other installations BEFORE you install the FRC version.

Sweet, I definitely need to look into getting one of them Linux installer CD's. I'm so glad NI is so cross-platform with everything, it makes everybody love them more!

Also, where did you get the evaluation version of LabView for Linux? I haven't been able to find one anywhere.

keen101 16-12-2008 01:51
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Also, where did you get the evaluation version of LabView for Linux? I haven't been able to find one anywhere.
To be honest, i can't seem to find it again...

I went back to one page i thought i had been on, but can only find the windows trial version. Weird. I don't know, i was doing a lot of googling at the time, and was trying to find anything that had to do with labview and linux. Oh, well. It doesn't matter anyway i suppose.

Does anyone know how to obtain the Linux version of WindRiver? Is it included on the software DVD? Or do we have to request it from FRC team support?

pogenwurst 17-12-2008 20:34
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keen101 (Post 784344)
Does anyone know how to obtain the Linux version of WindRiver? Is it included on the software DVD? Or do we have to request it from FRC team support?
It's not on the software DVD.

Though there is a native Linux version of LabVIEW, if I've understood the situation correctly, in order to program for a CompactRIO target you need to have the LabVIEW Real-time Module, which is Windows-only.

pogenwurst 17-12-2008 22:28
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
I just spent some time fiddling with it, and it's of note that the redistributable compiler for VxWorks 6.3 (mentioned further up) runs and successfully compiles the example code that comes in the zip provided that you set the proper environment variables in the Wine registry.

The following is a modified version of the Makefile from the example code that allows it to be built through Eclipse on Linux:

Code:
# edit these as needed to fit your setup
WIND_BASE = "c:\gccdist\WindRiver\vxworks-6.3"
WINECMD = wine

# These variables control the compiler and linker flags. Change them as
# appropriate.
DEBUG_MODE = 0

ADDED_CFLAGS =

ifeq ($(DEBUG_MODE),1)
OBJ_DIR := PPC603gnu_DEBUG
CFLAGS = -g -mlongcall
else
OBJ_DIR := PPC603gnu
CFLAGS = -Os -fstrength-reduce -fno-builtin -fno-strict-aliasing -mlongcall
endif

LINKFLAGS = $(CFLAGS)
LIBPATH =

# List all the *compiled* object files here, under the OBJ_DIR
# directory. Make will automatically locate the source file and
# compile it.
OBJECTS := $(OBJ_DIR)/example.o

# This is the name of the output shared library.
PROJECT_TARGETS := $(OBJ_DIR)/example.out

# If you have other VxWorks .a files to reference, list them here.
LIBS =
LIBPATH =

# Everything after this line should not need to be modified for
# basic compilation. However, significant changes to the build structure
# will probably involve modifying these lines.

CPU = PPC603
TOOL_FAMILY = gnu
TOOL = gnu
CC_ARCH_SPEC = -mcpu=603 -mstrict-align -mno-implicit-fp

IDE_INCLUDES = -I$(WIND_BASE)/target/h -I$(WIND_BASE)/target/h/wrn/coreip

# This basic rule compiles a .c file into a .o file. It can be adapted to
# all other source files that gcc can compile, including assembly (.s) and
# C++ (.cpp, .cc, .C, .cxx) files. To enable support for those extensions,
# copy this rule and modify its extension and compile flags for the
# required source file type.
$(OBJ_DIR)/%.o : %.c
        $(WINECMD) ccppc $(CFLAGS) $(CC_ARCH_SPEC) -ansi  -Wall  -MD -MP $(ADDED_CFLAGS) $(IDE_INCLUDES) $(ADDED_INCLUDES) -DCPU=$(CPU) -DTOOL_FAMILY=$(TOOL_FAMILY) -DTOOL=$(TOOL) -D_WRS_KERNEL  $(DEFINES) -o "$@" -c "$<"

# Adapted rule for .cpp files
$(OBJ_DIR)/%.o : %.cpp
        $(WINECMD) c++ppc $(CFLAGS) $(CC_ARCH_SPEC) -ansi  -Wall  -MD -MP $(ADDED_CFLAGS) $(IDE_INCLUDES) $(ADDED_INCLUDES) -DCPU=$(CPU) -DTOOL_FAMILY=$(TOOL_FAMILY) -DTOOL=$(TOOL) -D_WRS_KERNEL  $(DEFINES) -o "$@" -c "$<"

all : check_objectdir $(PROJECT_TARGETS)

$(PROJECT_TARGETS) : $(OBJECTS)
        rm -f "$@" ctdt.c;$(WINECMD) nmppc $(OBJECTS) | $(WINECMD) tclsh $(WIND_BASE)/host/resource/hutils/tcl/munch.tcl -c ppc > ctdt.c
        $(WINECMD) ccppc $(LINKFLAGS) $(CC_ARCH_SPEC) -fdollars-in-identifiers -Wall $(ADDED_CFLAGS) $(IDE_INCLUDES) $(ADDED_INCLUDES) -DCPU=$(CPU) -DTOOL_FAMILY=$(TOOL_FAMILY) -DTOOL=$(TOOL) -D_WRS_KERNEL  $(DEFINES)  -o ctdt.o -c ctdt.c
        $(WINECMD) ccppc -r -nostdlib -Wl,-X -T $(WIND_BASE)/target/h/tool/gnu/ldscripts/link.OUT -o "$@" $(OBJECTS) $(LIBPATH) $(LIBS)  $(ADDED_LIBPATH) $(ADDED_LIBS) ctdt.o
        rm -f ctdt.c ctdt.o


check_objectdir :
        @if [ ! -d "$(OBJ_DIR)" ]; then\
                mkdir -p $(OBJ_DIR);\
        fi

clean :
        rm -f $(OBJECTS) $(PROJECT_TARGETS) $(wildcard $(OBJ_DIR)/*.unstripped)

.DUMMY: check_objectdir clean
Again, this is the example code that comes with the redistributable compiler, not any WPILib code. I imagine it can be made to work with that too, but I haven't tried yet.

I'll post back as I make progress.

keen101 18-12-2008 02:54
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Well, just requested a linux version of LabVIEW. Hopefully NI will send it....

Quote:
The following is a modified version of the Makefile from the example code that allows it to be built through Eclipse on Linux:
cool. That would be ok, if you could get it to compile from Eclipse. I already have Eclipse installed. I've heard WindRiver is basically a modified Eclipse. If you could get it to work with Eclipse, then that should work. :D Keep me informed on any progress you make.

Quote:
It's not on the software DVD.
Thanks. I didn't think it would be. I am going on a limb here, and gonna say that maybe we can get the Linux version of WindRiver by requesting it from frc team suport? I could be wrong. Maybe they haven't even perfected the Linux version yet. I really don't know. I can't seem to find documentation about it anywhere...

Quote:
Though there is a native Linux version of LabVIEW, if I've understood the situation correctly, in order to program for a CompactRIO target you need to have the LabVIEW Real-time Module, which is Windows-only.
no, I'm pretty sure the real-time module is included with the linux version too.

If I made any comments about the Real-time module, it was that i am pretty sure the Real-time module on an everyday version of labview is very different from the FRC version. I think it's different because our cRIO's aren's standard cRIO's, they are custom built ones.

pogenwurst 18-12-2008 08:44
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keen101 (Post 785135)
no, I'm pretty sure the real-time module is included with the linux version too.
http://digital.natinst.com/public.nsf/$CXIV/ATTACH-AEEE-7AVNNM/$FILE/readme_RT.html

Quote:
Supported Platforms
The LabVIEW Real-Time Module supports Windows 2000/XP and Windows Vista (32-bit and 64-bit). The LabVIEW Real-Time Module does not support Windows NT/Me/9x.
http://www.ni.com/labview/requirements

Quote:
LabVIEW Real-Time Module
LabVIEW Development System for Windows requirements plus:
200 MB additional available disk space
Apparently version 7.1 runs on Linux. That's no help, though.

keen101 18-12-2008 12:30
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
The links you provided don't prove anything. Most of the documentation from ni is for windows anyway. that doesn't mean mac and Linux versions don't exist.

i remember seeing a real time module .rpm file with the linux tutorial. I could email it to you if you want to look at it. (if i still have it)

But, i have the feeling you just feel like arguing.

pogenwurst 18-12-2008 14:32
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keen101 (Post 785213)
The links you provided don't prove anything. Most of the documentation from ni is for windows anyway. that doesn't mean mac and Linux versions don't exist.

i remember seeing a real time module .rpm file with the linux tutorial. I could email it to you if you want to look at it. (if i still have it)

But, i have the feeling you just feel like arguing.
I only intended to save you and others time.

I suspect that the RPM you're referring to is labview85-rte-8.5.1-1.i386.rpm. Unless I'm terribly mistaken RTE in this case stands for the LabVIEW Run Time Engine, which is used to deploy VIs on computers that don't have the full development system installed.

In any case, I will say no more, and wish you the best of luck with your search.

keen101 18-12-2008 15:07
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
I only intended to save you and others time.

I suspect that the RPM you're referring to is labview85-rte-8.5.1-1.i386.rpm. Unless I'm terribly mistaken RTE in this case stands for the LabVIEW Run Time Engine, which is used to deploy VIs on computers that don't have the full development system installed.

In any case, I will say no more, and wish you the best of luck with your search.
well, i really don't know. I don't claim to know.

In either case i am going to assume to FRC version of LabVIEW for Linux is capable of programming the FRC nRIO just like the windows version. I'm going to assume they have included everything that would be needed.

Roboj 18-12-2008 16:13
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
In either case i am going to assume to FRC version of LabVIEW for Linux is capable of programming the FRC nRIO just like the windows version. I'm going to assume they have included everything that would be needed.
This is not the case. There is no version of LabVIEW Real Time for Linux. As has been mentioned in other threads, it is possible to edit a program on LabVIEW for Linux but you need a Windows PC (or Windows VM) to build the application and use the interactive debugging capabilities targeted to the cRIO (i.e. the Real Time module)

daltore 19-12-2008 23:39
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
This seems strange to me, there shouldn't really be an issue with realtime programming in Linux, there are entire realtime kernels out there (2 of my computers use them). Anybody know what the realtime module does that the regular LabView version doesn't?

Greg McKaskle 20-12-2008 08:03
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
The realtime module implements the client protocol, the cross compiler, and integrates all of the configuration stuff for discovering the chassis, downloading, etc.

It isn't that these things can't be done with linux. They certainly can. Years ago there was an RT version for Mac OSX. But demand for the Mac and also for linux versions of RT seem to be low. With a product this complex, even testing on an OS adds up to significant time. So if there isn't apparent demand, it gets trimmed. Many of the developers at NI are linux fans and it isn't personal, it just comes down to supplying products that the majority of engineers need.

Greg McKaskle

AustinSchuh 21-12-2008 18:07
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
I just succeeded in compiling and deploying code under Linux to the cRIO! I used wine to run the compiler and wput to upload it. I am going to write up a document on this in a bit and post it. I had to copy over the license file from Windows to get it working under Linux, so I'm not sure how that is going to work for people who don't install it under Windows first.

Off to work on getting the debugger working...

pogenwurst 21-12-2008 23:57
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSchuh (Post 786214)
I just succeeded in compiling and deploying code under Linux to the cRIO! I used wine to run the compiler and wput to upload it. I am going to write up a document on this in a bit and post it. I had to copy over the license file from Windows to get it working under Linux, so I'm not sure how that is going to work for people who don't install it under Windows first.

Off to work on getting the debugger working...
Excellent!

The redistributable version from NI (there's a link to it earlier in the thread) that I mentioned I'd gotten running & building under Wine comes with a license, so that shouldn't be a problem.

AustinSchuh 23-12-2008 20:10
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
I just got the debugger working using only my makefile and Hyperterminal! That was with a serial cable though. I'm going to talk to Brad about installing Telnet or something more secure so that I can get rid of the serial cable.

I figured out how to do it outside eclipse under Windows by launching wtxregd, tgtsvr, and then windsh, but the tgtsvr daemon won't work for me under wine, so that idea failed.

My brother and I are going to write a gdb interface on top of the kernel shell so we can use Clewn, a piece of code that integrates GDB in with VIM.

As soon as I clean up the loose ends that I still have left, I'm going to write up docs on the whole process and post them.

keen101 23-12-2008 21:01
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Was that only with WINE?

WINE is at least something, maybe also a VM like Virtualbox could work too.


But, is there anyway to get it working with the native version of Eclipse? I'd rather have a native program than something that works under WINE.

AustinSchuh 23-12-2008 22:50
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keen101 (Post 786836)
Was that only with WINE?

WINE is at least something, maybe also a VM like Virtualbox could work too.
I was able to use QEMU accelerated with the kqemu kernel module to run XP to run the servers and connect to the cRIO. But I found that I was then using Windows under Linux, and that wasn't the route that I wanted to go down. If I am going to do that, I would rather just use XP. XP would at least be more responsive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keen101 (Post 786836)
But, is there anyway to get it working with the native version of Eclipse? I'd rather have a native program than something that works under WINE.
I am pretty certain that once I get it to act like gdb that it is possible to use Eclipse again. You can use Eclipse to run and debug normal Linux applications, and it uses gdb for that. Personally I dislike using anything other than VIM and Makefiles, so my goal is to get things working with VIM and my makefiles.

Until they give us Linux binarys, there is no way to avoid wine or a VM. I guess you could compile your own cross compiler, but that sounds like a lot of unnecessary work and that could introduce problems in the output executable. I find WINE to be just fine for running command line utilities from Windows, though not as good for GUIs. I ran the command line compilers for the previous year's controller using WINE without any problems. This was using a Makefile though, not using MPLAB.

spicyj 04-01-2009 03:10
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSchuh (Post 786852)
I guess you could compile your own cross compiler, but that sounds like a lot of unnecessary work and that could introduce problems in the output executable.
I think I did it. After installing the latest WindRiver update on Windows, copy the entire C:\WindRiver\vxworks-6.3\target\ directory to your Ubuntu box, and put it in a directory that we'll use for the build files (~/frc/ or similar works just fine).

On your Ubuntu box, cd to the directory you just made for the build files, then run these commands in order: http://pastie.org/352039 (you can change $PREFIX to change the install directory). Those instructions should be accurate for building gcc to cross-compile to Ubuntu. Included is a patchfile for what seems to be a fix to be a small problem with the libgcov code.

When you finish, you should have a complete cross-compiler suite in /usr/local/powerpc-wrs-vxworks, complete with binaries, headers, and static libraries. PLEASE tell me if you find any errors with what I've written up. (P.S. Whenever you use this compiler, you should need to have $WIND_BASE and $WIND_USR set; also required is a preprocessor flag _WRS_KERNEL which you can specify on the gcc command line using the argument -D_WRS_KERNEL.)


Now that the compiler works (well, for me, at least), it seems like it's time to try to get the SimpleRobot kernel-module example code template to compile using this compiler. Right now I'm getting problems with case sensitivity and load path order. Can someone try to get that working? My Makefile attempt is at http://gist.github.com/43030.

My final concern is how to upload an application to the cRIO into the RAM (not saving into flash memory). Seems like FTP is only for using the flash memory, but for code debugging, RAM is much less dangerous. Anyone figure out how to do this? Maybe we need to reverse-engineer the communications between Workbench and the cRIO.

AustinSchuh 04-01-2009 11:36
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spicyj (Post 790645)
My final concern is how to upload an application to the cRIO into the RAM (not saving into flash memory). Seems like FTP is only for using the flash memory, but for code debugging, RAM is much less dangerous. Anyone figure out how to do this? Maybe we need to reverse-engineer the communications between Workbench and the cRIO.
I have succeeded in getting RAM debugging to work. Reverse engineering sounds like a big challenge, so I wouldn't recomend it. When I get home from Robotics today, I'll read through the documentation I wrote to get it to work, run a copy by Brad to see how it looks, and then work on getting it posted.

keen101 04-01-2009 11:51
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
cool. keep up the good work. I'm very interested in this. Unfortunately i don't have a copy of our software yet, so i can't try it yet. I will be sure to try it when i can.

spicyj 04-01-2009 13:23
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSchuh (Post 790871)
Reverse engineering sounds like a big challenge, so I wouldn't recomend it.
I'm not sure it would be that hard, as it's all over the network and easily sniffable. Anyway, if you've got how to do it, please share!

Also, it looks like pogenwurst is right. LabVIEW for Linux doesn't have the proper tools: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=18.

ratdude747 24-01-2010 02:41
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
hate to revive an old thread... but here i go!

does the frc edition of labview include the linux files? if so, ut better not be tarballs! (i use ubuntu but i am good at alien). all i would want it to do for now is code writing practice (and to settle a bet with a windows fanboy).

daltore 24-01-2010 13:08
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
No, there is no Linux version on the FRC disk. The FRC LabView installer is only for Windows because, as previously discussed, there is no NI realtime engine for Linux (or Mac for this purpose). I once found a trial version of LabView for Linux, but it was RPM based, and even with alien, it never worked. Now, it was also on a crappy computer, but sorry, I doubt it will work.

ratdude747 24-01-2010 17:16
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
that bites. i didn't even find a linux trial.

last year Kamen praised open source code with labview... this year they shove microsoft down our throats..

Greg McKaskle 24-01-2010 21:20
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
ni.com/linux describes the products NI does sell for linux, but LV realtime isn't one of them.

Also, MS kindly donated the classmate licenses.

Greg McKaskle

ratdude747 24-01-2010 22:38
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
not to start a flame war, but they were probably donated in hopes of addicting people to their products. thats what they did to OLPC...

Robototes2412 10-02-2010 20:04
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Amen, brother!

daltore 10-02-2010 20:41
Re: Anyone install windriver on linux yet?
 
Oldest story in the book, big powerful entity donates its products to remove any detected need to move a complementary product to another system, so the users of the other system hack it in! I need to learn how to code hack better...


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