Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

While reading a thread, I came to the realization that The Robot Kids are noticeably different from 'ordinary' High School kids. After just a few weeks in FIRST, I find that team members are

Calm and listening, not fidgety or talking
Behaving appropriately
Respectful of adults and classmates alike
Speaking more like adults
Thinking before asking
Willing to help almost always
Focused
Polite
Mature

If I had to use one word, it would be "Professional"

When I am mentoring the team, it is almost like discussing things with colleagues. OK, maybe colleagues who don't know a lot, but are interested in learning.

With 'other' High School kids, I am seeing significantly more immaturity, inability to focus, and inappropriate behavior.

FIRST kids spoil me. I find myself getting annoyed by "typical" kids now.

sigh. Does anybody else see this?

Don

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

haha i completely agree and i believe
that i am one excellent example of a
student who was forced to mature in
order to be taken seriously on my team.

and i have seen a few fellow students
clearly "grow up" to recieve the same
respect. thank you for the compliment.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

From what I have seen FIRST students are generally much better behaved, after all that is the whole point of gracious professionalism, and thus FIRST. Of course, you have to remember they are still high school students, and so aren't exempt from stupidity.(I can count the number of times I've done stupid things on one hand, assuming I ignore ninety-nine percent of them.)

I blame the mentors. It's hard for students not to act mature with such great role models.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Eh, I could argue that with plenty of kids on our team its not the case. There are the kids you consider the "bad kids" who can be brilliant when it comes to something like FIRST.

Ultimately, I'd say no. Too much of a generalization.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

lilstogi thats exactly how our team is...
Many of the guys (and girls sometimes) on my team are immature ALOOOT. But when it comes to robots they do focus and show their potential. I agree that this is a little too much generalized

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

This extends to the competitions as well. More than once, when I was volunteering at a regional, someone from the venue has come up to me and mentioned that the students are much better behaved than at other high school events that have been held there. Even though yes, there are exceptions, I agree, and everyone in FIRST should be proud. This type of competition could easily degenerate into the hyper-competitive, trash-talking, hate filled atmosphere that so many college and professional sports have become.

Let's hope that the lessons and behaviors learned in FIRST continue throughout the student's lives.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I'm not sure it happens after a few weeks, but I have noticed a remarkable difference in the students who have been FIRSTers for a year or more over the new students. Even the most hyper of the returning students is able to control the energy when necessary, and all are much more autonomous in team situations. I called it maturity, but it also includes a large measure of self confidence. I noticed it at a travel off-season that we went to this fall. The students were truly in control, seeking out the mentors when they needed help, not the other way around.

It made me excited to realize all the potential out there, especially when I look at all our new students, and have the reassurance that being on the team will have an impact, not only on technical knowledge, but on life!

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Last year the team's faculty sponsor (teacher) asked me why I didn't become a teacher. I told him there were two reasons:

1. The pay wayyyy too low (teachers are grossly underpaid)

2. Real classes are not like First. These kids are here because they want to be, not because they have to be. They ARE more polite, more motivated, smarter, it would be a stretch to say they are more mature, but the same could be said about me, and I'm nearly 50...:p

There are other groups that stand out as well, one of note is band kids. They are also better behaved and more respectful (as a whole) than the general HS population (with the possible exception of drummers.;)

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I will agree in general that FIRST students behave better. I've heard it from at least two sources. Our bus driver one year commented that we were better behaved than the usual Cedar Pointe crowd he gets for HS groups. A maintenance/housekeeping worker in Atlanta said the crowd was much better and cleaner than your average NFL crowd.

I'd point out though, that sometimes part of our inherent geekiness (and I mean that in the best sense) involves some anti-social behavior. Individual kids may range from behaviors that are simple inability to deal with others because they are often loners, to ADD and even mildly autistic team members. Add in an "I am always right" component, and you have the scenario for disagreement. It probably won't devolve into a bloody shootout or even fisticuffs, but mentors need to be aware of team/individual dynamics to ensure the team functions harmoniously, at least most of the time.

Oh, and I've found in life that the "good kids" are sometimes allowed to get away with more. :)

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I've noticed this too, but still, there are some exceptions (like some of the drummers ;))

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I've worked with different groups of students since I was a student in high school, myself. Even working with peers, I learned very quickly that if they are given responsibility, they will assume it. It may take a false start or two but eventually, all the students I have worked with have met their responsibilities and have surpassed them in many instances.

Some of the other groups that come to mind regarding fostering responsibility and accountability are Scouts, 4-H, youth groups, and National Honor Society. On the college level, the college students that get involved in peer mentoring, student orientation, volunteering whether for college credit or because they choose to - all work well with responsibility and accountability.

Students who have to earn recognition, merit, or acknowledgement, usually blossom when they understand the value of their own achievements. It is very very cool.

On a side note - adults who sharpen and/or learn to appreciate these qualities more as mentors, blossom just as beautifully as their young team mates, usually surprising themselves and their loved ones.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

they might
♥

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I've heard this time and time again, and would say that the good majority of FIRST kids this is true by the time they hit their second competition. Im factoring in what Cynette pointed out which is very true, that our returning kids "spoil" me as our new ones come in and I always end up thinking "what was I thinking??". The new kids are often the typical high school kids that most are referring to, and are just anxious and unsure of what they are getting into. Many are freshmen with the attention spans of gnats, many have wide eyes, many bounce off the walls until you tape them to chairs. But eventually, something happens to all of those that stay with it. They do become more focused, respectful and considerate of others. Some this happens to in a short year, some it takes a few years.

I think there are two things at work here. They all get to interact with kids that are older than them, who have been through this, who have learned gracious professionalism and general respect. But the other thing is that once they realize that there are adults that are treating them more like adults than kids, that arent questioning their every move, that are chastising them for not turning in homework, that are actually interested in paying attention to them, something magical happens... they grow up. They mature. They learn respect for others.

I love the bus drivers, they do bring us back to earth. Our very first year, the bus driver that took us to Toronto asked us if we would ask for her again, as we were THE BEST group of high school kids she had ever had on her bus!! She was floored that these were regular high school kids and had never seen any so respectful. Another time was in Philly last year we hired a tour guide to take us around the city in our bus, and she absolutely loved us and wanted us to come back because not only were the kids respectful, but enthusiastic too! (not a bored bunch of high schoolers being dragged around by their teachers).

Now this is a generality, Ive seen plenty of FIRST kids who have acted out, we have even had kids on our team that I have told to "grow up", but I think in general, the majority become good kids as a result of the program. They learn to work with others, they learn to work under high stress, and they learn to manage time, all are very important parts of growing up and maturing.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I think that FIRST is one of a number of organizations like that, as Jane pointed out. They treat the kids as adults (albeit younger adults) unless other behavior warrants other treatment.

There have been a number of comments about the number of Eagle Scouts in FIRST, or for that matter, Scouts in general. Scouting teaches maturity and leadership as well as outdoor skills. In fact, you have to have had a position of responsibility for a certain period of time before you can advance past the First Class rank (when you've learned all your skills). To advance, you must be responsible, serve others, and lead.

The same holds true in FIRST. While they teach a different set of skills, you still need maturity. You need professionalism, tempered with grace (or is it the other way around?). Professionals treat you as almost-equals, with the almost portion being the knowledge that you don't have yet that they have and share. Because they share their knowledge, you gain that knowledge from them.

FIRST kids tend to be treated as adults, with the responsibility level appropriate to where they are. As they meet the challenge, they get another, slightly harder one. And they meet it. Their responsibility level grows. They take the initiative to learn.

That is why they tend to behave better: they are assumed to be responsible, professional young adults and not irresponsible, unprofessional teenagers until proven otherwise. And because of the human nature not to back down from a challenge, they generally don't prove that they should be treated like typical teenagers. (There are exceptions, don't get me wrong, but in general, this holds true.)

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Kim, I think you hit the nail on the head here. That seems to be exactly it.

Certainly there are other organizations with the same effect - scouting, 4H, NHS are all good examples. And yes, not every kid "gets it" - but others notice it, and I think the reason is because of what Kim wrote in that quote up there.

Don

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Recently at TNT my dad talked to two of our mentors and their girlfriend/fiance and got glowing reviews about me. I would say I only know one of the four well, and wouldn't recognize two of them. First is an organization where you leave lasting impressions on people you don't even know.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I don't think FIRST makes the kids more polite than normal, it just tends to self select a certain type of kid that is more likely to be well mannered and polite, etc.

I don't think it's that much better though. There are always going to be problem children, and I don't think they're all that much less common than they were in most of my high school classes.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Yes, I think that they do. Granted, saying that all of them are top notch might be stretching it, but alot of kids who are in robotics seem to get "it". They understand the bigger picture beyond high school. Many people I talk to can't see that; they don't really want to. I agree that other groups like band and NHS tend to have more kids who see the bigger picture, too. I'm glad, because its nice to be able to talk to people who aren't adults about more mature topics, like college, stuff thats going on in the world, or just about anything, and not sound like a "nerd" or anything like that.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I think it looks that way because the good kids are out doing something when the less-than-great ones are goofing off in the hotel room.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I agree. I was recently at a swim meet because a friend of my dad's son was competing. There were about ten moms in the stands right in front of us bad mouthing the other swimmers, and sometimes their own kids! I swear, I wanted to tell them to stop!

At the Portland and Seattle competitions I was at last year, I never heard any parents bad mouthing anybody, and I certainly did not hear too many students doing the same. It's kind of like a football game with the addition of gracious professionalism. Why can't professional athletes and fans act the same way?

(Because they get paid!) :rolleyes:

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

The statement about the drummers is true. We tend to have a different attitude than the rest of the band. The band is happy with however they place at marching competitions. On the Drumline, we arent happy unless we win, which is why we won best percussion in the state of WI 3 of the last 5 years, and the years we lost we took 2nd and missed 1st by .1 and .2. We considered putting a quote from dodgeball on our shirts - "We're better than you, and we know it." When its time to be serious though, we have the most discipline out of the whole band.
Back to the thread, it depends on where we are, and who we are with.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

That may be true in your band, but it sure ain't in mine. I'm in my school's advanced group, and the drummers are STILL getting yelled at by our director to pay attention and stop goofing off.

Back to the thread though, I totally agree. This is only our rookie year, but the team has certainly attracted a lot of more mature acting kids. My guess is that FIRST attracts a lot of the same group of kids as scouting, 4H and the like.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

This is an opinion and I've never verbalized it before so it may take some tweaking with help from others who get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

To expand on your statement, I also think that students who enjoy working alongside adults are attracted to the program or decide to stick with it. Those who have the confidence to share with, learn from, and appreciate adults as mentors and role models, and who desire to become mentors and role models, themselves, seem to do very well in programs such as FIRST.

Many students enter a team unaware of the demands that will be placed on them as a member of a team. The keyword is: team. If they don't have the confidence initially, they will gain it and help others obtain it as well. It's pretty cool to see individuals and teams develop in areas of trust and team building.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I like FIRST (my team especially) because they unlike the rest of High Schoolers realize that the smartest and best leader is the person to follow not the "coolest". they instead of outcasting the smart nerd they embrace him/her because they realize that they have the worthwhile ideas and goals.

They also attract the more mature type of people, they may not actually be completely more mature (you get what i'm saying, realize it doesn't make sense). These people however realize WHEN to screw around and have fun, and when to be serious and have fun.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I think that for the most part FIRST students are better behaved. I know that on our small team, we do have a few students who behave immaturely during school or even during breaks while we're at the shop, but when it's time to pay attention during robotics, they are well behaved. Tho I have noticed that a few people have become a bit better behaved after they joined our team. Only a few have tho.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

In a short answer, no. If you really observe all students at FIRST events, there is a mix of polite "good kids" and kids who tend not to behave properly. Through my teaching observation at Harrison High School in West Lafayette, IN, I did not have any students that were involved in FIRST and noticed no change in the overall student behaviors.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Finally, a response I agree with 100%!!! As someone who has chaperoned for many (too many) years, I do not think FIRST kids are better behaved than other kids. Ask Wetzel about some of things he and his cohorts did when they were the leaders on 116. And it isn't just 116, I've had many conversations with chaperons from other teams to know that they have to deal with typical behavior from students that age. Also, I've sat in the stands many times and have seen both kids and adults be rude and nasty over seats they have saved (to be fair, I've also seen many adults and students be very generous and kind in sharing their seats). I've heard students from another team in Virginia go on and on about how much they hate Dave (this petty behavior has gone on for years and years now). There was a thread on CD a few years ago where students were asking what crazy things people did in Atlanta... one thing that I will never forget is the kids who talked about balcony hopping (from a fatal height) to get to the girls' room next door. Last year in our hotel in Atlanta, students from multiple teams, mine included, were dropping things from the top floor (47th floor or so) to the ground level until security was called in. And there are worse things, that I'm not going to discuss because I think some things, once dealt with, are best left dormant.

I'm not trying to sound negative, because overall, I think kids involved in FIRST are great. But I think they are still teens and they still act like teens. Also, saying "behave better" comes too close to saying "are better" and I hate seeing the attitude of "FIRST blah blah blahs are better than other blah blah blahs" because it's snobbery and, in my opinion, doesn't fit with gracious professionalism. I belonged to a club when I went to FSU that boasted of having the highest cumulative GPA of any club on campus... and it's something they boasted about and flaunted and bragged on and eventually no one wanted to play with them anymore. The "better than" attitude leads countries to war.

Okay, I don't know where this rant came from, I guess it's something I've been thinking about since the first time I saw this thread. Like I said, overall, I think kids involved in FIRST are great, otherwise I wouldn't have spent the past 7-8 years working with them.

Heidi

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Thank you Heide and Kyle for the alternative perspective. You see, as a mentor but not a teacher I don't see the 'average' kid, so my exposure is limited.

Oh, sure, there will always be some kids.... But perhaps SammyKay has a good point: When they are interested, they pay attention. Maybe they act rightly in front of me because they know that's what I expect. Dunno.

In any case, I am still having fun (Ice game or not).

Don

Better at not getting caught...
 

I did absolutely nothing wrong, and you can't prove otherwise. :cool:

Wetzel

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I would have to say that FIRST kids behave better when it involves FIRST. Outside of FIRST most of us are regular teenagers. Well, i don't know if regular is the right term. More like normal nerds.

Re: Better at not getting caught...
 

Proof is not always necessary :p

Re: Better at not getting caught...
 

Let's just say that I am forever grateful that I was not a chaperon when Wetzel was a student on the team. The only thing worse would have been chaperoning a team that had someone like Dave on it... scary thought that.

Which makes me think about another point on FIRST kids and their behavior. Sometimes that their intelligence can get them into trouble. Like one year, I think it was at hotel during the Chesapeake Regional... our kids used mirrors and to extend the beam of a laser pointer as far as they could. They got it down a long hallway, up a flight of stairs and halfway down the upstairs hallway before they ran out of mirrors... Which was fine and fun... until we found out they were trying to figure out how to pry the mirrors off of the bathroom walls to go even further...

Heidi


Heidi

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I don't really know about anyone else, but I was raised to exhibit good behaviour and respect. FIRST had very little to do with it.

However, when most people see me for the first time, they don't really expect it due to how I dress.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Think about the freshmen on robotics teams at the beginning of the season; walking into any team, you can probably tell who the new members are, just because they act like most other freshmen. Let's face it, most 14-year-olds aren't particularly mature. However, during the course of a season in FIRST, I think the process of learning certain values is expedited, and brings maturity faster. (You just can't horse around near people using power tools, you're expected to be graciously professional... some things just have to be learned.) In general, this leads to kids who have spent time in FIRST being, on average, "better behaved" than kids outside the program. I think most teams will bear witness to it, and have stories about particular team members for whom the program made worlds of difference. However, there are always exceptions, and some people never seem to grow up, while others come into FIRST already exceptionally well-behaved.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

so-so everyone different and changes their behavior

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

well to be exact most do behave like 99% but we're all really the same as none first kids most of us are behaved but there are dozens of none first kids who are the same

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

When I think of that question I think back to a couple of incidents at the Championships a couple of years.
The first was told to me by a fellow mentor on a local team who was "propositioned" by a student in a way that I'm not sure what kind of girl he was trying to attract. The profanity filters won't let me write it out as is but let's just say she was quite offended and told the student "One. You don't talk to me that way and two I am an adult mentor!" Did he apologize? No. His only response was "For real?"
And second incident was a student approached me on an elevator and asked me a "hypothetical" question about buying porn on a school trip. I told him that school trip probably wouldn't happen again. He thanked me and scurried off, hopefully to correct his previous error.
And basically all I need to do is recall this classic thread to remember that they are still kids in need of being chaperoned on trips no matter how well they carry themselves.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Hmmm jus gonna throw something I think in here and I don't know if everyone will agree. I have met a lot of FIRST kids who behave better when they know they are being watched but than when, you know, no one is watching they act just like every other typical high school student would. And you know people always talking about "people being to immature", I am sure at some point in time in your life you were immarute as well. And you learned from your mistakes of being immautre and moved. So why not let the "non-behaved" kids learn from their mistake. Sorry if this make no sense it made more sense in my head. I mean a lot of the kids on my team act like they are well behaved around the adults and the mentors but when it is only us around they act like the typical kid being described here. Is that wrong? No, its just a part of growing up.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

It makes sense. I'm one of those kids.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

i always noticed that about my team and myself. ive changed in a good way :D

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Yea, I agree with you on this. I'm guilty of it at times too. When I know that some of my mentors are watching, I behave as best I can. When I know they aren't, or when I think they're not, I'm not as well behaved. That's the same with many people on our team. And of course, there are some students who just don't care whether a mentor is watching or not, they act immaturely all the time.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Ok, major problem with the title of this thread. better? better then what? I think if you were to rate all the students in the school from 1 to 10 with 10 being well behaved and 1 being not so well behaved. Then average them. Then do the same thing with just the kids on the robotics team. I think the robotics team would have a higher score. Why is this? Because there are some awful kids out there. Some will curse at their parents, pick a fight with a random guy, and do anything else to be obnoxious. You don't get those on a FIRST. At least, in the time I've been with FIRST, I've not seen anything like this.

FIRST kids are better behaved on average, not because they are all perfect...its just because they don't have certain types of kids to weigh down their average.

I may be completely wrong on this note, but this is the way I see it.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Better than other kids you encounter.
It was ambiguous on purpose, to allow for the opportunity in ambiguity.

Sure, as a mentor, when I unexpectedly walk into a room I see what the kids were up to. But, as someone said, it is a part of growing up. What, you think I was an angel as a kid? You have no idea...:ahh:

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I know this thread is ancient............... BUT, I'd like to get some current opinions on this matter. I, for one, am often annoyed by how rudely some students in my team behave when mentors aren't around. From throwing balls in the shop to yelling profanities at others. Of course the way I was raised is a bit different (at least culturally) from most other kids. I've found that disrespect is too often considered "part of growing up", without kids understanding the concept of repercussions of actions. To be fair, no one in my team did anything in our hotel rooms, due to how tired we all were.

How do other teams feel about this? Do FIRST kids still act like any other, or have you noticed they seem to be mature now?

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

Kids behave like kids when adults are not around. Yes, some kids are better, but not many.

We do make it very clear every season what our expectations for behavior are, and I like to think this does affect them positively. Basically "no horseplay" and "be inclusive" (which means no bullying or shunning or cliques) are big ones.

While traveling we have even higher standards, especially on how they behave in the hotel, since other guests are trying to rest. (This is a sore point for me, since I travel a lot and am frequently one of those "other guests").

So, I think if we didn't make it real clear, we'd see typical kid behavior. Even then, we sometimes do.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

I've got a good story regarding this.

A couple of years ago our team was staying at a fairly fancy hotel that we have stayed at for a number of years. I recognized the concierge as having been there for the years that I had attended. I ended up in the elevator with him, a student from another team with orange spiked hair and a girl from FBLA who was attending a conference that was being held in the hotel at the same time. Both of the girls got off of the elevator at lower floors so I asked him if he dreaded the time that robots came to town. His answer surprised me a bit, he said no they are always well behaved, the groups that I dread are the church groups because those kids are always out of control and often inadequately supervised.

So yeah FIRST kids behave better on average.

Re: Do FIRST kids behave better?
 

At least at hotels, I don't think it's the fact that we're FIRST kids. I think it's that we're at competition.
<begin story>
On an exchange trip to France (unrelated to robotics, except that I went and that the teacher in charge, our main mentor's wife, mentors when she can), we spent a few days in Paris. When we checked out, the concierge told our teacher that the group had been extremely well-behaved.
In French, she responded with something to the effect of, "Of course! It's like having dogs- you have to run them all day until they're so tired that when they get back to the hotel at night, they have no choice but to collapse into bed."
<end story>
That's pretty much exactly what happens to our team at competition- it's the culmination of all the work we've put into the team that year, and everyone there does as much as they can to help our team succeed. Waking up early to get into the stands; coming back late from fixing the robot; by the time we get back to the hotel after competition, we're exhausted.
And anecdotally, as a former team captain, the first night's room check is usually the most annoying if the team got in the night before competition starts.

Outside of that? I've seen the team behave themselves, and I've seen the team be rude. I suppose it can easily change based on what setting your selective memory is on, and I don't keep records of mine.