Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Hey guys, so here's the story. Our machine shop from prior years is not going to be able to help us this year with our robot. Although our team is hard at work trying to find a replacement shop, the possibility of not having a shop this year is growing bigger and bigger. I am just wondering if any of you guys would have any good bits of advice as to certain design tips. Basically any advice that would help out a team whom does not have a metal shop at their highschool, and only has access to hand tools, some power tools, as well as a bandsaw and drill press, both capable pf cutting wood and aluminum. Also, any materials that are easy to modify with such tools, but do not require cnc milling to become usful. Sorry about the poor grammer but everyone is starting to panic a bit. Hopefully someone out there can point us in the right direction. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Is there a reason on why you can't use the machine shop from prior years?

I guess ask around at small or big local busnesses that manufacture stuff, that could be a possibility, but it sounds like you have already tried that.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

We've built a robot without a real machine shop for all eight years so far. We just use drill press, etc. It's not too bad, you just make sure you have enough time allotted to actually build your robot, because I imaging having a machine shop is faster then not having one. We normally build ours in around two weeks, with the other four weeks for prototypes.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

umm well find a two car grudge and use what you got its what team 1699 did for the last few year!

and it gets the job done!
but for materials rivits nuts and bolts the basics...
for welding try some of your naboring schools that might be willing to lend a hand. you just might get them in to first!

umm... what else i think we got a lot out of working in the gruage. learning more respect using are tools and such. you might not have all the mills and such but i found it good cuase you got to look out side the box in making make shift ways in doing things.

good luck on find a place to work!

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

i am very sorry to hear that. unfortunately you are located very far away from my team so it would be difficult for us to give you any physical help. and i do not know what my team would do if our tools were taken from us. but keep hope because plenty of teams build good robots with very limited resousces. my team started without a machine shop of any kind and we still built competitave robots in the beginning. one thing that helped us was generous buisnesses with machine shops in our town. people are usually happy to help once they have heard about the things FIRST does. i wish i could help more and if there is anything my team can do to help you out from this distance do not be afraid to ask because we will do all we can. good luck


and to any teams that may have a problem similar to this in the central california area please dont be afraid to ask for help. we have plenty of machining capability and we would hate to see a team fall from the competition if there was something we could have done to help.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

You've more or less described 1618's shop. Of note:

-There is no shame in using the kitbot. Get it together, make whatever cheap improvements you can (for us, that was going 6WD, riveting the frame, and adding AM Super Shifters), and focus on your manipulator.

-Think simple materials. We built the main arm for our 2007 robot, Uppercut, with a few pieces of angle aluminum and one length of PVC pipe from the local hardware store. Bolt it all together, put a window motor (or its equivalent for 2009) and you've got a single-stage arm. Now focus on a manipulator.

-Focus what machining resources you might be able to scrounge on the things you just can't do off-the shelf...but if you can, alter your design with these things in mind.

-Stephen Kowski pointed this one out to me: don't ask "What Would Beatty Do?", ask "What Would BeachBots Do?". Look at 330 the past four seasons. Together, those robots have won one four regionals (and finalist at two more), Curie in 2007, IRI in 2008, and the whole enchilada in 2005. They're all dead simple; single joints for everything but 2006 (when an arm wasn't really an option). Build it as simple as possible, then refine that design as best you can. More time, shorter letter.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Machine shop? Whats that? We are very fortunate in having a mentor who is very good at making flat material work like machined parts. With the extruced aluminum from Rexroth we made our own gussets from 1/8" alu,. Drill press for screws and lightening, 1/4 x20 t nuts and you can overcome a lot. We have to buy things like gears and sprockets and wheels, but that is the price to pay for not having access to a machne shop. A sander to round over edges and the famous buffing wheel.

not really hard and it gives a new challenge to the team.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

And guess who has just about the resources you do? Yep, Team 330. Except it's a borrowed chopsaw instead of a bandsaw. The main thing you might want would be a welder, but that's negotiable. (It makes the robot look cooler, but you don't need it.) A machinist mainly does the absolute, 100% "it must be there and nowhere else" holes.

As to materials, 330's arm material of choice tends to be PVC or aluminum, depending on the year. (Fiberglass also works--2007.) Everything else is aluminum, but trannies are purchased or KOP. Steel only shows up in sprockets or in trannies.

Oh, and Billfred--you forgot a finalist at IRI 2005.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Honestly best thing I can suggest is go on google maps. Search "Machine shops in ' '"

We did it this year and learned that there are a bunch of machine shops that we never even knew about within 5 minutes of our school basically.

Google maps and Yellowpages, trust them. :cool:

Btw if you guys need further assistance feel free to PM or IM me and I'll see what contacts I can dig through for that area. I know of some....

Middlesex County College

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...w=text&attrid=

Hope that this helps out. Btw 2554 is also in Middlesex County, see what they can help out with. Again, please IM or PM me if you need more help.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Hey bro, have I'm from team 2554 in Edison, NJ. We're pretty close to you guys. Anyways, have you guys pursued any on campus facilities? Does MCC have some kinda industrial arts department? You guys are literally part of the campus if I'm not mistaken?
I'll do some brainstorming for ya, so let me get back to you in a little bit.
Don't panic, we'll figure something out.
How far are you willing to travel btw?

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Team 95 is going through the same possibility of not having a machine shop this year. It is really good that your team still has a bandsaw as this, the press and the gracious professionalism when handling an unfortunate situation like this. (We have worked out of a mentor's garage one year.)
Also don't let this happen to you use a wood block with the bandsaw.
http://wc.pima.edu/~cdiscenza/constr...saw_injury.jpg

-Dragonos-

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

There must be three dozen machine shops in Middlesex/Piscataway/Plainfield. If you need the odd part turned or a slot milled, you can probably walk in and talk someone into doing it for free. On the rare occasions that Team 975 needed something machined, we've been able to find someone to do it.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

I'm going to echo this. If you don't have access to a machine shop kitbot is the way to go.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

mcc is something like 30 minutes away, maybe 25. Also, I am open to suggestions as far as facilities. We dont really have a designated maximum that we are wiloling to travel, as long as its within reason.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Thirded!

397's robot was built using mostly 1 inch aluminum that we bent by hand. The only complex parts were the winch for raising our ball knocking device and the mounts for our cylinders. (We did them on a mill but I am pretty sure you could do them using a hand drill and a band saw if need be)

My suggestion would be to make sure your students can use the equipment safely and design knowing what you have to work with.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

80-20 is awesome stuff.

It used the original kitbot parts, plus some additional parts we ordered.
The only thing we couldn't do with out a bandsaw or drill was the welding of the chassis. We had to send it out for that.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

1501 seems to build there bot every year using monocouque, pretty much just sheetmetal and rivets. (about 1,600 rivets:rolleyes: ). Its great, and its what the aircraft industries use. It takes some practice, but our tools are pretty much a drill press, pneumatic metal shears, and a tabletop belt sander. We also use some chromoly tubing, and that will reguire some welding. But monocoque can easily be integrated into a kitbot frame.

go to huntingtonrobotics.org for some inspiration. Click on the photos icon at the top, and then select 2008 build season. (you may have to hit the back "more photos" button on the lower left hand side. It may be back a page)

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

The only thing that I can think of is find materials that are approved premade things that would be easy to modify to fit the game and the robot. But you could use the same theory our team has used for the past 3 years that seems to work KISS (keep it simple stupid) make sure that what ever you do can be done over and over again so if it breaks it can be fixed and you don't have to change the whole robot to fix a problem. (Ex you don't have to take out the transmission to get to the electrical problem that could be fixed in seconds after you figure out what the problem is) A reliable robot is a good robot. We try to look at it as a robot that can do our goal all of the time even though it may not be the most points in the game we can do it every time without a problem. I believe that the one thing that you should focus on with a limited amount of resources is a drive train. You can still be a competitive robot even though the manipulator may not be top notch but you are always moving during the two minutes (hopefully). If you need me to clarify any of this please message me.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

One thing that will help out with metal working without a machine shop is a cheap used copy of AutoCAD, a can of spray adhesive, and a plotter printer.

If you Cad all of the parts you need to make out of sheet metal you can print life-size versions of your drawings and use the spray adhesive to stick the image on to the sheet metal of your choice. This way you can get the precision of a machine shop with hand tools.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

While there is some great advice out there, I have a few questions?

Historically speaking,

How much have the kids made in the past?
What parts did you make in the past that can't be made with a bandsaw and/or drill press?
What experience level does your team have as far as building stuff?

Looking at your previous bots, I would have to agree that if you can't find a welder (both machine and person to do it), you should try to plan towards bolt together stuff.

With AM and the state of the KOP (assuming it is good again this year), you can definitely get by without a Shop. That being said, make sure that you work on it for next year as there are a lot of good lessons that can come from working with a shop.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

perhaps you should also try working with spare medal to see if you can build what you designed using tips from the above posters. also, if you havent already, try asking your local home depot, lowes, or other hardware store that has a shop if they will sponser you

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Another brilliant example of basic kit chassis is 121. That's how they build a beastly robot and always have like half of build to practice driving.

(Of course it is modified)

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

Just to clear things up, our machine shop had originally put together an arrangement that was a bit unordinary. Our team was allowed to use the machine shop, and the machinists tought the students how to operate the mills, lathes and welders. We have a descent amount of machining experiance on the team, but we have no equipment.

Re: Team 869 In Need of Some Advice
 

That partnership you had with the machine shop is something that only a few teams are blessed with. I’m sincerely glad you had that opportunity. Obviously, the bad news is you don't have that anymore or machines for that matter. The good news is that you can take that experience with you elsewhere, including into your careers.

Our team, 2199, is in its 3 year. We used the old workshop in our high school that was rarely used. It had band saws, drill presses, and hand tools and managed fairly well to build a great robot. We also have been steadily adding our own set of hand tools. This year, new classes were created and now use that area daily (and I know because I'm in that class) and because of the lack of space to lock things up to keep everything secure, we had to move. Fortunately, last year we were given an empty warehouse space, managed by one of the student's father, walking distance (15 minutes) from the school. Getting that area was accomplished just by asking. Your team can go around the local area and find a new work space.

We moved there to practice near the end of the build season. This year, the father and his business then let us use his work area as well as keep access to the bigger warehouse room we practiced in. We have already started to clean up the space, organized it, and apply for grants to fill the space with tools.

Anyway the point is:
-Find a space through a massive organized “public relations” movement to all the local shops and warehouses
- If that doesn’t work find a team member's garage (we did our first two years when we were working on the weekends and couldn't get into the school)
-Clean up your area
-Buy essential tools with team’s money, grants, or sponsorships.
-You have 22 days or less
-You may not have the fanciest equipment, but you can still build a reliable robot. We have and so has many other teams.

Good Luck!