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-   -   Diffrent Transmission Advantages (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70577)

Raul 14-12-2008 02:28

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rc_cola1323 (Post 783483)
AM is great for one, Adam covered it beautifully and the one problem we did have with Andymark's supershifter (this was totally our fault); was the fact that we broke the roll pin. I know I have posted this before but i wan't to warn other teams. DO NOT SHIFT AT 60 PSI. Shift at 20 psi. .....

This would not occur if you use a 1/2" stroke instead of a 1" stroke and adjust the location of the stroke so the roll pin does not bottom out against the ends of the slots. AM provided a sleeve to slide over the piston rod to shorten the stroke on a 1" stroke cylinder. Not sure if they still do.

When we used the Gen 1 shifter in 2005 and 2006, we had the pressure at 60 PSI and had no problems. But like I said, you have to have to be careful to adjust the location of the stroke.

surferacf 14-12-2008 08:31

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
At the risk of sounding repetitive, AndyMark products are my first choice, any day. Mainly, it's their sheer simplicity and relative lack of moving parts. The county-wide competition we compete in during the fall mandates that we use DeWalt motors and transmissions, which can really burn you over if the clutch starts slipping. That's what happened to us this season, and rebuilding that sucker was a pain in my 'bot. (Plus, they're round. Mounting round things to flat surfaces securely is never a pleasant experience!)

lenny8 14-12-2008 14:34

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
This off season we are using Banebots P80 motors ( the upgrated ones) and they seem to work pretty sweet. there small, easy to mount, they are not heavy i would suggest that rookie teams use them.

Travis Covington 14-12-2008 14:37

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul (Post 783510)
This would not occur if you use a 1/2" stroke instead of a 1" stroke and adjust the location of the stroke so the roll pin does not bottom out against the ends of the slots. AM provided a sleeve to slide over the piston rod to shorten the stroke on a 1" stroke cylinder. Not sure if they still do.

When we used the Gen 1 shifter in 2005 and 2006, we had the pressure at 60 PSI and had no problems. But like I said, you have to have to be careful to adjust the location of the stroke.

Agreed. We've shifted at 60 psi for the last six years with no issues. So long as a stroke limiting spacer is in place and properly adjusted, you'll be fine.

**I should add that you need a stroke limiting spacer on even the 1/2" stroke pistons though.

AdamHeard 14-12-2008 14:48

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lenny8 (Post 783652)
This off season we are using Banebots P80 motors ( the upgrated ones) and they seem to work pretty sweet. there small, easy to mount, they are not heavy i would suggest that rookie teams use them.

For both single and dual CIM drive setups, a Toughbox from AndyMark is lighter (as you can remove the outer casing for standoffs), cheaper, and definitely more reliable.

lenny8 14-12-2008 14:53

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 783668)
For both single and dual CIM drive setups, a Toughbox from AndyMark is lighter (as you can remove the outer casing for standoffs), cheaper, and definitely more reliable.

lol. i know this i just dont want this tread to be all AndyMark thread. ( Even thou our team uses andy marks for our bots :D )

Akash Rastogi 14-12-2008 16:50

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lenny8 (Post 783673)
lol. i know this i just dont want this tread to be all AndyMark thread. ( Even thou our team uses andy marks for our bots :D )

The thread isn't meant to be biased, if a product is better, its better. Giving false information isn't too helpful not that your info was false). I'd rather see honest information than something in support of a certain product.

lenny8 14-12-2008 17:29

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lilstogi11 (Post 783706)
The thread isn't meant to be biased, if a product is better, its better. Giving false information isn't too helpful not that your info was false). I'd rather see honest information than something in support of a certain product.

I'm saying a product could be better but if a team is in need in lets say a certain gear ratio that is available from other products that's helpful information, instead of praising AndyMark Let Teams know of the Advantages of other Products also.

Cory 14-12-2008 18:00

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lenny8 (Post 783721)
I'm saying a product could be better but if a team is in need in lets say a certain gear ratio that is available from other products that's helpful information, instead of praising AndyMark Let Teams know of the Advantages of other Products also.

As far as I'm concerned Banebots holds no advantage over any Andymark product.

Shoddy quality abounds on Banebots products. Maybe you can live with that based on the application. Even if Banebots and Andymark both offered products that would work I'd buy the Andymark even if it costs twice as much.

lenny8 15-12-2008 13:53

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 783725)
As far as I'm concerned Banebots holds no advantage over any Andymark product.

Shoddy quality abounds on Banebots products. Maybe you can live with that based on the application. Even if Banebots and Andymark both offered products that would work I'd buy the Andymark even if it costs twice as much.

Banebots i think or over looked because the PAST problems that people had with them but now Benebots has improved there motor gears and if you want, go to teams that used banebots and ask them how it works so you have a better understading. i know we are useing banebots for one of our 3 CRio Beta test bots and I Dont have anything bad to say about them. some teams dont have the luxury of having alot of money and if the the toughboxes doubled in price i kow id use Banebots.

Tom Line 15-12-2008 14:25

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Dewalt: Very small and lightweight package, due to the cyclic geartrain. However, said geartrain incurrs higher efficiency losses that a simple spur-gear setup.

Rush managed to run two cims through a single Dewalt last year, as have several other teams. I believe they ended up not shifting them, however. They can comment on this if they see it.

Andymark is easier. There is no machining. If you want to make it lighter, you can. It is reasonably bulletproof. The only real drawback is that you need a pneumatic system to shift well, and that adds additional weight.

Banebots make some excellent transmisisons. But it's very seldom I see them used for a drive system.

Many teams Opt for the Andymark tranny, then machine out the gears, and remove the spacer plate and use 4 aluminum / delrin spacer cylinders instead. This lightens it up considerably without touching the durability and is an operation that anyone with a hand drill can perform.

In addition, unlike the dewalts, if you DON'T modify the supershifters components, you can use them year to year. Because the dewalts are not COTS components, people generally end up dropping them because of the hassle of machining them year to year.

That's why so many folks like Andymark.

A final note - if you only need a single cim for your application, then dewalt's are the way to go. The andymark's are built to handle 2 cims, and 2 cims worth or torque: they are more than twice as heavy as they need to be. In this case, the dewalt looks like the better choice.

Andrew Schreiber 15-12-2008 15:00

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 784016)
Dewalt: Very small and lightweight package, due to the cyclic geartrain. However, said geartrain incurrs higher efficiency losses that a simple spur-gear setup.

Rush managed to run two cims through a single Dewalt last year, as have several other teams. I believe they ended up not shifting them, however. They can comment on this if they see it.

Andymark is easier. There is no machining. If you want to make it lighter, you can. It is reasonably bulletproof. The only real drawback is that you need a pneumatic system to shift well, and that adds additional weight.

Banebots make some excellent transmisisons. But it's very seldom I see them used for a drive system.

Many teams Opt for the Andymark tranny, then machine out the gears, and remove the spacer plate and use 4 aluminum / delrin spacer cylinders instead. This lightens it up considerably without touching the durability and is an operation that anyone with a hand drill can perform.

In addition, unlike the dewalts, if you DON'T modify the supershifters components, you can use them year to year. Because the dewalts are not COTS components, people generally end up dropping them because of the hassle of machining them year to year.

That's why so many folks like Andymark.

A final note - if you only need a single cim for your application, then dewalt's are the way to go. The andymark's are built to handle 2 cims, and 2 cims worth or torque: they are more than twice as heavy as they need to be. In this case, the dewalt looks like the better choice.

RUSH did indeed shift last year. Also, many may recall their drivetrain problems, these were NOT caused by the Dewalts, to my knowledge in the last 4 years using dewalts in their drive train they have never blown one. This includes the time when a servo wasn't shifting one all the way into gear and we had it kick into gear. (This was fixed as soon as we found it)


AndyMark's Toughboxes were what 397 used this year. Literally set it and forget it. Never once did we have to muck around with them. Our drive train was rock solid using them.

Also, custom gearboxes are nice if you absolutely need them. I have found most teams don't have the capability to improve upon off the shelf solutions. Some teams do, but for me, the only mods I will be doing on a gearbox anytime soon MIGHT be integrating it straight into the chassis side rails.

Cory 15-12-2008 15:13

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lenny8 (Post 784010)
Banebots i think or over looked because the PAST problems that people had with them but now Benebots has improved there motor gears and if you want, go to teams that used banebots and ask them how it works so you have a better understading. i know we are useing banebots for one of our 3 CRio Beta test bots and I Dont have anything bad to say about them. some teams dont have the luxury of having alot of money and if the the toughboxes doubled in price i kow id use Banebots.

We have used Banebots products on our robot, so I'm familiar with their capabilities. This is what lead me to make that statement.

We successfully used one of their planetaries on our roller grabber. It worked because it was a low load situation, but after working with/modifying that transmission, you could tell it was super cheap. Poor fit/finish of the assembled parts. Poor quality screws (both the fact they are phillips head, and the actual screw quality itself). All sorts of stuff like that.

Do they work in the right situation? Sure? Would we use them again in that situation? Yes, but we'd prefer to use something else if we had a choice.

daltore 16-12-2008 01:16

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Our first year, team 2158 used Banebots. A while ago, I asked Richard, our mentor, how they worked, and he said, "Oh, they're great! The seize up and everything!" These were the old Banebots. Last year, we used their transmissions on all of the non-drive motors, and there were no problems except for the one that had a case we lathed that got some metal shavings left in it. It was soon fixed and worked fine.

For the drive train last year, we used 4-motor 6-wheel drive with 4 DeWalt transmissions. All I have to say is that if you have 6 regular members on your robotics team, don't use DeWalts. They were an unnecessary pain and easily took up 2 or 3 days of build time. We had to keep the drive train very low to the ground because of the 13' forklift we built on top of it, so all of the motors were squashed down onto a support bar with the transmissions screwed to the P-channel frame and hose clamped down for alignment. We have never gotten into 3rd gear. We refer to it as neutral. We originally settled on a shifting platform so we would have precision for lining up to the balls and high speed for doing laps, but it turned out we could line up plenty precisely in high gear, and we never used low gear. This year, that should be even less of a concern due to the increased linearity in response of the Jaguars over the Victors. Currently, we're having a big problem with the drive current, as we can drain a battery from just driving around for about 4 minutes, but the problem is impossible to diagnose because of the complication in mechanical parts. We know we had some magic wires (based on the magic of electrons flowing through dielectrics), but the transmissions are masking everything else.

That being said, I'd say for beginning teams, AndyMark is the simplest, most rugged design, with Banebots slightly behind them. The Banebots 12:1 single motor gearbox is the same weight as the AndyMark Toughbox, but more expensive. The Toughbox is also easily configurable for different gear ratios, whereas you need to buy a different Banebots transmission or remove one of the stages and cut the case down to get a different ratio. One thing I will give Banebots is the physical size of their gearboxes is smaller than the AM ones. Even pit against the new GEM500 (about the same size, no weight data), the Banebots wins out as the cheaper and easier to mount (the GEM is completely round with no mount plates other than the front and back), and there is no match in size for the dual-motor Banebots.

So overall, if you're a more or less new team without many resources, stick with the kit transmission. If you have a few more resources and you need shifting cheaply, use DeWalt with caution and care. And if you have enough resources, I encourage the use of custom transmissions, as they will give you everything that your team specifically needs. Our team toyed around with the idea of building an IVT or at least a CVT of some sort, but I sincerely doubt that will happen looking at our resources and funds. I'll probably peg for the Toughboxes this year, looking at all of our drive train trouble from this year and all of the possible culprits we have yet to narrow down. One thing I will say as a general rule, is one output sprocket is better than two, that's just twice the number of misaligned teeth you'll probably have in your drive train.

Mike Schreiber 17-12-2008 14:36

Re: Diffrent Transmission Advantages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 784031)
RUSH did indeed shift last year. Also, many may recall their drivetrain problems, these were NOT caused by the Dewalts, to my knowledge in the last 4 years using dewalts in their drive train they have never blown one. This includes the time when a servo wasn't shifting one all the way into gear and we had it kick into gear. (This was fixed as soon as we found it)

I believe our problem was that we direct drove our wheels, at first we had problems with our drive shaft, then the pins sheered inside the Dewalt, and once we improved the pins the gears actually broke, we ended up solving the problem by Atlanta, but unfortunetly we ended up stuck out of gear in the semifinals and unable to do anything.

I'd say the Dewalts are effective for their size, but our application of them was not ideal, we have used them for a very long time (not sure the number) and never had a problem before last year.


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