Chief Delphi - FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

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- - FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70973)

Jeff Waegelin

31-12-2008 18:49

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I would say this poll is just like the preseason NCAA football poll... subject to change greatly by the end of the season :) At least we won't be using this poll to try and crown our champion...

Cory	31-12-2008 18:51

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Waegelin (Post 788880)

I would say this poll is just like the preseason NCAA football poll... subject to change greatly by the end of the season :) At least we won't be using this poll to try and crown our champion...

I would go a step farther and say this is like the preseason NCAA football poll...useless ;)

Both are just popularity contests and have nothing to do with on the field performance.

JackN

31-12-2008 19:04

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Then there are teams that fit the criteria better that were left off in favor of teams that seem to only fit the list because they are popular. What is a better model of consistency than winning 3 straight divisions or having one hugely successful year? What is a better measure of robot design, having your design copied by ~20 other teams in first or having an unsuccessful copy of that robot? What about the team that has won IRI the most, are they consistent? What about a team that has beaten the number one team on this list every time they have played them. There are teams that fit each of the first criteria that were not on this list for completely unknown reasons. PM me, and I will give you the teams that I think this list is missing. Also, i don't want to sound like i am slighting any team on this list, there are teams on this list that I like a lot, but they do not fit the criteria given as well as other teams.

dodar

31-12-2008 19:47

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I think they should do this for every team and then do a bowl system like the NCAAF do. Put each state into its own division, do regionals throughout the state and then set up "bowl games" in atlanta and the best 6 picked by the Head Committee at FIRST plays in the Championship match

Barry Bonzack

31-12-2008 20:02

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Lets not jump on the negatives on this list too much. I believe the goal here is to make FIRST more similar to sports, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing (I know others may disagree). The second goal is to have a fun consensus of who our role model teams are; who should my team try to be more like.

The thing about any preseason poll, is that it is a popularity contest and based off of information that we have from previous seasons.

That also brings the point of "how do you measure best team"?

Regardless the discussion, we are unaware any answers until we at least know the competition, and see a few weeks of matches.

The reason there are teams missing is because the "consensus" is based off of the opinions of 6 people, and statistics teaches us that is too small of a sample size to represent the population of opinions of the FIRST community. Each opinion is biased toward local teams.

I don't think anyone can fault that the opinion that these 25 are excellent teams, and if you were to only have a limit of 25, there will always be arguments for those that did not make the list. I would argue for team 359 the Hawaiian kids and 476 the Wildcats from Oklahoma.

How about we steer this conversation in a productive manner. Lets perhaps figure out what conditions would make this idea not a popularity contest.

We all know the top juggernaut teams. If we could figure out which weeks they play, then perhaps a ranking beginning after their first competitions would be okay. The BCS doesn't attempt to rank teams until after at least a 3rd of the way through the season. What other suggestion can we come up with?

Akash Rastogi

31-12-2008 20:10

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Post up the other 26 please. If you can.

Ian Curtis

31-12-2008 20:34

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I'm surprised BUZZ (175) isn't on the list. While they fly under the radar pretty well (unless you're competing against them) it seems like they always build a high quality machine that performs really well in Atlanta. They've got the consistent credentials too, with at least 1 regional win every year since 2000. Not to mention, they were Divisional champions in 2003, 2004, AND 2005! While perhaps not quite Beatty or Poofs, that's still "knock-your-socks-off" impressive!

ATannahill

31-12-2008 21:13

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikesrock (Post 788875)

Quote:

Originally Posted by corpralchee (Post 788863)

Is this really a good idea? What rookie teams going to think when they see a list of the top 25 teams? I can see some teams getting discouraged because everyone has already decided who they think will win even before the season starts.

The same thing that the 316 NCAA Division I College Basketball teams that don't make the Top 25 think? These teams, just like the preseason Top 25 in College Basketball t is mostly based on past performance and this list will likely look very different by the end of the season. As Alec said, who people THINK will win has no bearing on who will actually win.

This is against the objective of FIRST, if you see me posting you will notice that it is weird that I capitalized every letter there. It is because I want to mention what it stands for "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology" from now on I will be typing it differently to remind people that it is not an organization, but a pledge made by Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers and all the other people that make it great. This is not inspiring any rookie or new teams. This is not recognizing the majority of the hard workers of the F.I.R.S.T.* teams. I ask who are you to say these teams are best? Who are your six voters to chose what makes a great team? Who are you to say that only these six have a say in who is the best team? All teams are great for participating and doing their best. I am proud of my team for what we have done, and I think we are great for going out and doing what we love. This does not support the message of F.I.R.S.T.* I would not be this way If you put up a thread "Who is your favorite team?" But to hear from seven people that I am not within the top 25 teams of F.I.R.S.T.* is downright degrading, and I do not want anyone to look at this thread and quit robotics, engineering or doing what they love. This is not a sport, Dean Kamen wanted to pull away from the "we only take the best" persona. He started F.R.I.S.T.* to welcome everyone to the world of engineering.

I hereby issue my recognition to every member, be it a student, mentor, teacher, parent or sponsor, of F.I.R.S.T.* as a great person who has worked hard and is great because of what they have done.

*For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology

CraigHickman

31-12-2008 21:32

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 788861)

Popularity ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 788881)

I would go a step farther and say this is like the preseason NCAA football poll...useless ;)

Both are just popularity contests and have nothing to do with on the field performance.

This.

Vikesrock

31-12-2008 21:33

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Well, then I guess we should ban Looking Forward and shut down the Fantasy First forum (which you seem to be pretty active in).

There will always be people that think that these types of activities are discouraging to the teams that don't make the list. I personally find these activities fun and I hope they continue.

I have written my opinion in two very similar threads before so I will just quote those posts here instead of trying to say the same thing over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikesrock (Post 786974)

There is no disrespect intended to any of the teams not drafted or drafted lower than other teams. The scoring is based on point values awarded for wins, losses and the various awards.

Teams that have consistently had winning records and earned awards are the teams that will be rated higher by the drafters and thus selected earlier. This does not mean that they are accomplishing the mission of FIRST any better than your team or any other team, it just means that they are more likely to score more points in this game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikesrock (Post 707122)

I don't think it has anything to do with "faith" in regions of FIRST. When we (or at least I) look at the regionals and guess (that's all we're doing here is guessing) which regional will be strongest/toughest/most competitive/highest scoring/etc. we are merely looking at lists of teams and applying past observations to future events.

Even if every CD user thought that Midwest was going to be the best regional ever because 111, 1114, and 71 are going to get on the same alliance and zip around the field scoring 300 pts. It doesn't really make it any more likely to happen. We have to always remember that many things that happen here on CD are for fun. When these threads pop up about what regional will be this or that or when we draft teams for FantasyFIRST we have to remember that FIRST is even less about these threads than it is about the robots. Instead of looking at these threads and being angry/disappointed/frustrated about why your regional or team is not the highest on the list we should look at the teams that are the highest on the list and try to figure out why they are there and how we can better our own teams and regions so we can try and reach that same level.

If you want to have a debate about which regional is really the best, first you have to get some data about which regional had the most learning, which regional had the most inspiration, and which regional had the most fun. When you find an objective way to determine that, then I might believe that what we are talking about here really matters, until then these threads are all for fun and I think that anyone that doesn't see that needs to relax and take a step back.

ATannahill

31-12-2008 21:41

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikesrock (Post 788967)

I am saying that the popularity rating is wrong and that scores based upon popularity are wrong which is what this is and has been stated many times. FF is a competition based on how teams do and what awards they win. Maybe a reminder XXXX was a team to beat last year, watch out for them. but as was said in the description of 1902 this is not the case.

Akash Rastogi

31-12-2008 21:44

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

HIs point is merely that teams should not feel discouraged or presume things about other teams when they see this.

Everyone just chill and enjoy the new year for once. Just wait to argue and all that junk come January 3rd. lol

fuzzy1718

31-12-2008 22:11

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

This right here is what I hate about FIRST, elitism at its finest. All that this list is, is a few people who have forgotten what the point of FIRST is trying to force their opinions on everyone. Intentional or not the result is the same, you just made a lot of people feel like crap.

I ask that if something like this is to continue, everyone should have the opurtunity to vote once, perferably not for their own team either.

P.S.
If you look at my name and just tune out because of previous comments that you didn't like... well I won't go there, this is chiefdelphi things are taken the wrong way all the time.

XaulZan11

31-12-2008 22:17

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Two thing:

I think this is a really great idea, but remember its only 6 unnamed people. I'm sure the 6 people of highly knowledgeable, but we cannot be sure. Also, as stated before, 6 is an extremly small sample size and probably not a random cross section of FIRST. Perhaps we could run some nomination process and pick 25 voters to do a weekly top 25.

Secondly, I don't really think this is a bad idea. If I was a rookie team or any team not on the list, I first wouldn't be too upset because, remember, its only 6 people's opinion. I would then look at those 25 teams, learn more about them and try to emulate some of thier most sucessful practices and what makes them on the list. I would look at this as an opportunity to find teams to look up to and get inspired from.

s_forbes

31-12-2008 22:42

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I don't see how a list like this is really a bad thing... if anything it tells rookies which teams are likely to do well at a competition and gives them a heads up to go check out their pit. If someone had told me in 2006 "team 60 builds awesome robots and performs really well at competitions" then I would have gone to visit their pit and oogle their robot at the Arizona regional. Now I know better. :)

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