FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Each week, there are top 25 rankings for sports. In the AP Poll, highly qualified sports addicts and writers vote on who they think the top 25 teams are for each sport. This poll is similar, where highly qualified FIRST addicts vote on who they think the top 25 teams are for FRC. Voters picked teams based on success shown at competitions in the past, consistency of the team, and robot design and function. This week, six of the voters submitted complete lists, and the results are based solely on those lists. I will leave it up to the voters to make themselves known or not, but I will say that they are all knowledgeable, reputable members of ChiefDelphi. Please enjoy analyzing this Pre-season Top 25 Ranking. The next ranking will follow the build season and precede the regional competition season.


1. 1114- The number one pick for this list and reigning world champions, it is very likely that Simbotics will return to Einstein this year and continue the dynasty.

2. 217- One of two teams to win more than one Championship. Their robot designs seem truly flawless.

3. 233- Still looking for their first world championship, Pink has been stopped short of it a couple times. However, they show no signs of stopping.

4. 254- The Poofs consistently dominate regionals, not to mention their well-deserved Chairman’s in 04.

5. 67- How do you improve on a Championship and a Championship Chairman’s Award in the same year? Nevertheless, do not put another Championship win past them. Don’t believe it? Go watch some IRI tapes. This team is on a HOT streak.

6. 330- Recent IRI Champs and 05 Champions, this team Keeps It Stupidly Simple.

7. 71- A legend. Never bet against Beatty.

8. 968- RAWC has a reputation for victory and nice robots, but so does 254…

9. 111- The other big name in programming and design; a true powerhouse.

10. 148- This championship team designs consistent, amazing drivetrains and well-build robots.

11. 1024- Kil-a-bytes got what they came for last year. Top-notch programming and a simple design carried this team to regional championships and a spot on Einstein last year, and we’ll all hope they only do better next year.

12. 365- This Chairman’s Award winning team literally stands out at competitions.

13. 16- When I first got sucked into FIRST they were a good team with a great past. It looks like they’re making a comeback, so watch for the Bomb Squad.

14. 987- The High Rollers rounded out the IRI winning alliance. They had a great year, and they’ll hopefully do just as well this year.

15. 25- Undefeated in 06 and tough as heck to beat otherwise, contribute it to a beast drive system every year and consistent design.

16. 2056- Another Canadian powerhouse. Let’s hope the keep it up.

17. 103- Cybersonics teamed up with 25 to win NJ, and later won Monty Madness. They also took home some other trophies; they make a good, profitable pick for FF.

18. 27- RUSH had a so-so year this year, but are consistent each year and build good robots.

19. 45- Technokats made this list for obvious reasons. When have they not built innovative, award winning robots? This team truly represents the phrase “Oldies but Goodies.”

20. 1902- Way to go in 2007. Their previous year was only slightly disappointing, but certainly nothing to cry over. Watch for them!

21. 842- Of course the 2008 Chairman’s Award winners made this list! Be sure to watch for their Chairman’s Award Video!

22. 33- Killer Bees consistently built beautiful robots that win, although last year wasn’t their best.

23. 1625- Winnovation. Not only does the name sound cool, it is also the truth. Finalists at IRI and beasts at Colorado, their innovative robot from last year brought them back into the spotlight.

24. 39- 39th Aero. If you remember the Gila Monsters(I lost my 64 button:( ), you understand who they are and why they’re so great.

25. 177- Bobcat Robotics is a strong team, but not quite at “powerhouse” status. But hey, 25th is nothing to complain about.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Umm....I'd fight for 1126 to get any of those spots. Especially looking at the 25th team. (Eventhough 1126 would be waayy above that) Not to mention 1124. Uberbots pwn.

And arguable are the spots given to 842...you forgot team 47 as well. Also if ur going by consistancy I don't think 1902 should be up there. Where are 343, 342, and 1251 at?

You def overlooked a lot of teams.

+$0.02

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Ooh will there be computers involved, so we can all endlessly complain about how they can't take the intangibles into account and then demand a new type of ranking system. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

This is a great idea though, hope you guys keep it running all the way through Championship - now if you could only get the AP to publish it..

-Greg

Edit: Also, the way you typed it, you made it sound like there are more than 6 people in the queue for making these picks. If you don't mind me asking, how many people do you have lined up to vote for the future? Just curious.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

1124 actually just missed the list. I completely cut off any other teams that recieved votes if they weren't in the top 25. There were 51 teams that recieved votes, so 26 teams didn't make this list.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

177 has been a Division Champion at Championships 4 of the last 5 years and they're the ones you want to drop out?

I would like to see at least a few "Also Receiving votes", the AP shows all of them but even a few would be cool.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

WHOO! TOP 25!! this is a cool idea guys. thanks for the recognition, i'm just anxious to find out what we're building!

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Who did the voting? I agree with most of the teams but what is the list supposed to represent? Robot consistency? Award Consistency?

I'm not knocking the list I'm just wondering how we're ranking these teams. And I ask how the voting was done cause I'd like to vote next time.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Every team starts at a level of 0 and works their way to the top. While I whole-heartedly agree that there are teams with vast advantages and previous performance does usually mean an equal chance of continuing those those advantages, I think the reasoning for the teams you have above is not the correct reasoning for a list of this kind.

I suggest next time displaying more data and information.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Popularity ;)

TBH, the teams on this list are all great role models, but I'll wager some Krispy Kremes that by the end of the season (post season ranking?) less than 1/2 of these teams will still be on this list.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Few Things

148 has also won two championships.

25 was undefeated at regionals in 06 but would latter lose 4 times (Including twice in the world finals) at championship.

What is the criteria for voting?

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Is this really a good idea? What rookie teams going to think when they see a list of the top 25 teams? I can see some teams getting discouraged because everyone has already decided who they think will win even before the season starts.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Exactly! Who a select few THINKS will win. It's up to everyone else to prove them wrong! Don't let this list discourage you, let it motivate you to become the best (or try your hardest in the attempt).

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

That should be explanation enough.

Such as? You want more data and information, but what kind?

I don't understand what you mean by each team starting at zero and working their way to the top. Does the AP poll (or any other poll) do that? If so, which one? That is what this is based on.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

No 177 would be switched up to a higher spot and replaced in that spot would be another team. But yea, who were the "highly qualified" that did the voting?

btw, Won't be online later so Happy New Year everyone! :D :D :D

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

The same thing that the 316 NCAA Division I College Basketball teams that don't make the Top 25 think? These teams, just like the preseason Top 25 in College Basketball t is mostly based on past performance and this list will likely look very different by the end of the season. As Alec said, who people THINK will win has no bearing on who will actually win.

Just like the Top 25 for College Basketball and Football these lists may be based on slightly different things for each different voter. You just get the rankings as decided by the voters, there isn't really any other data other than vote totals.

Exactly, this is the same way the preseason college polls work. By the end of the year it will likely look very different.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I would say this poll is just like the preseason NCAA football poll... subject to change greatly by the end of the season :) At least we won't be using this poll to try and crown our champion...

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I would go a step farther and say this is like the preseason NCAA football poll...useless ;)

Both are just popularity contests and have nothing to do with on the field performance.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Then there are teams that fit the criteria better that were left off in favor of teams that seem to only fit the list because they are popular. What is a better model of consistency than winning 3 straight divisions or having one hugely successful year? What is a better measure of robot design, having your design copied by ~20 other teams in first or having an unsuccessful copy of that robot? What about the team that has won IRI the most, are they consistent? What about a team that has beaten the number one team on this list every time they have played them. There are teams that fit each of the first criteria that were not on this list for completely unknown reasons. PM me, and I will give you the teams that I think this list is missing. Also, i don't want to sound like i am slighting any team on this list, there are teams on this list that I like a lot, but they do not fit the criteria given as well as other teams.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I think they should do this for every team and then do a bowl system like the NCAAF do. Put each state into its own division, do regionals throughout the state and then set up "bowl games" in atlanta and the best 6 picked by the Head Committee at FIRST plays in the Championship match

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Lets not jump on the negatives on this list too much. I believe the goal here is to make FIRST more similar to sports, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing (I know others may disagree). The second goal is to have a fun consensus of who our role model teams are; who should my team try to be more like.


The thing about any preseason poll, is that it is a popularity contest and based off of information that we have from previous seasons.

That also brings the point of "how do you measure best team"?

Regardless the discussion, we are unaware any answers until we at least know the competition, and see a few weeks of matches.


The reason there are teams missing is because the "consensus" is based off of the opinions of 6 people, and statistics teaches us that is too small of a sample size to represent the population of opinions of the FIRST community. Each opinion is biased toward local teams.


I don't think anyone can fault that the opinion that these 25 are excellent teams, and if you were to only have a limit of 25, there will always be arguments for those that did not make the list. I would argue for team 359 the Hawaiian kids and 476 the Wildcats from Oklahoma.



How about we steer this conversation in a productive manner. Lets perhaps figure out what conditions would make this idea not a popularity contest.

We all know the top juggernaut teams. If we could figure out which weeks they play, then perhaps a ranking beginning after their first competitions would be okay. The BCS doesn't attempt to rank teams until after at least a 3rd of the way through the season. What other suggestion can we come up with?

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Post up the other 26 please. If you can.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I'm surprised BUZZ (175) isn't on the list. While they fly under the radar pretty well (unless you're competing against them) it seems like they always build a high quality machine that performs really well in Atlanta. They've got the consistent credentials too, with at least 1 regional win every year since 2000. Not to mention, they were Divisional champions in 2003, 2004, AND 2005! While perhaps not quite Beatty or Poofs, that's still "knock-your-socks-off" impressive!

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

This is against the objective of FIRST, if you see me posting you will notice that it is weird that I capitalized every letter there. It is because I want to mention what it stands for "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology" from now on I will be typing it differently to remind people that it is not an organization, but a pledge made by Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers and all the other people that make it great. This is not inspiring any rookie or new teams. This is not recognizing the majority of the hard workers of the F.I.R.S.T.* teams. I ask who are you to say these teams are best? Who are your six voters to chose what makes a great team? Who are you to say that only these six have a say in who is the best team? All teams are great for participating and doing their best. I am proud of my team for what we have done, and I think we are great for going out and doing what we love. This does not support the message of F.I.R.S.T.* I would not be this way If you put up a thread "Who is your favorite team?" But to hear from seven people that I am not within the top 25 teams of F.I.R.S.T.* is downright degrading, and I do not want anyone to look at this thread and quit robotics, engineering or doing what they love. This is not a sport, Dean Kamen wanted to pull away from the "we only take the best" persona. He started F.R.I.S.T.* to welcome everyone to the world of engineering.

I hereby issue my recognition to every member, be it a student, mentor, teacher, parent or sponsor, of F.I.R.S.T.* as a great person who has worked hard and is great because of what they have done.

*For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

This.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Well, then I guess we should ban Looking Forward and shut down the Fantasy First forum (which you seem to be pretty active in).

There will always be people that think that these types of activities are discouraging to the teams that don't make the list. I personally find these activities fun and I hope they continue.

I have written my opinion in two very similar threads before so I will just quote those posts here instead of trying to say the same thing over.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I am saying that the popularity rating is wrong and that scores based upon popularity are wrong which is what this is and has been stated many times. FF is a competition based on how teams do and what awards they win. Maybe a reminder XXXX was a team to beat last year, watch out for them. but as was said in the description of 1902 this is not the case.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

HIs point is merely that teams should not feel discouraged or presume things about other teams when they see this.

Everyone just chill and enjoy the new year for once. Just wait to argue and all that junk come January 3rd. lol

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

This right here is what I hate about FIRST, elitism at its finest. All that this list is, is a few people who have forgotten what the point of FIRST is trying to force their opinions on everyone. Intentional or not the result is the same, you just made a lot of people feel like crap.

I ask that if something like this is to continue, everyone should have the opurtunity to vote once, perferably not for their own team either.

P.S.
If you look at my name and just tune out because of previous comments that you didn't like... well I won't go there, this is chiefdelphi things are taken the wrong way all the time.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Two thing:

I think this is a really great idea, but remember its only 6 unnamed people. I'm sure the 6 people of highly knowledgeable, but we cannot be sure. Also, as stated before, 6 is an extremly small sample size and probably not a random cross section of FIRST. Perhaps we could run some nomination process and pick 25 voters to do a weekly top 25.

Secondly, I don't really think this is a bad idea. If I was a rookie team or any team not on the list, I first wouldn't be too upset because, remember, its only 6 people's opinion. I would then look at those 25 teams, learn more about them and try to emulate some of thier most sucessful practices and what makes them on the list. I would look at this as an opportunity to find teams to look up to and get inspired from.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I don't see how a list like this is really a bad thing... if anything it tells rookies which teams are likely to do well at a competition and gives them a heads up to go check out their pit. If someone had told me in 2006 "team 60 builds awesome robots and performs really well at competitions" then I would have gone to visit their pit and oogle their robot at the Arizona regional. Now I know better. :)

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Perhaps it's just my personality, but if I see a top list of whatever and I'm not on it, I consider that a challenge. :cool:

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

That was definitely the first thought I had.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

[Warning] Long and irritated post follows.[/Warning]

Listen, you guys. I don't know how many were invited to join the "panel". It may be that only six were. It may be that 20+ were. What matters is that 6 people, for reasons known to them and only to them, have said that these are the top 25 teams in FRC right now. We haven't even seen the game yet!

If you think that a particular team isn't on the list and should be, then I have only this to say: I think that the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology Hardrockers (football, basketball, track, cross-country, and volleyball) should be ranked #1 in the BCS, AP poll, or whatever poll you use for the given sport. Haven't heard of them? That's too bad.[/sarcasm]

You can say that any team should be on any list. In the example above, the football team only has a 5-5 record, and last year and the year before I won't go into. I'm not sure about any of the other sports. They aren't in the top divisions for a reason.

rtfgnow, FF is about the awards won. You're right about that. But when, might I ask, are the picks for Season Long made and what is the basis for them? Which teams go first when it's an actual pick? The ones on this list, more often than not!

To hear from six-seven people that you aren't in the top 25 is just to hear from six-seven people that you aren't in the top 25. If your teammates say "We should be number 1", and outside observers say "Not even close", you have a choice: 1) moan and cry about not being where you think you should be OR 2) get out there and do what it takes to be #1 better than the current #1. It's that simple.

It may be (who knows) that one or more persons who made the list had a given team on their list, but others did not and that team flew under the radar. Or there simply wasn't room for them.

It's not who is on the list, it's not who is off the list, it's what you do/did to be on the list that matters.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

If people really do feel like crap after reading this, I think they ought to re-evaluate their priorities, toughen up, or both. Lists like this aren't made to make anyone feel bad, and if your team isn't on the list, so what? Only 1.5% of the teams in FRC are on the list, so pretty much everyone else isn't on the list either.

If it bothers you, try your hardest to make your way onto that list, but really being in the "top 25" isn't the point of FIRST, so this whole discussion is kind of moot.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I have a list of every ORANGE team in FIRST.

Its a very exclusive club.

And most of you will never be in it. :cool:

Ha!

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Just one phrase is missing from the original post, that was included when "Looking Forward" did a similar thing for the championship last year

Not on the list? Feel you aren't even close? Work at it! Just one slight catch: As you work to develop a program capable of turning out robots year after year to rival these teams, you might just also inspire your students, create a great experience for everyone involved, and gain recognition for your efforts to promote science and technology. Hey, that sounds a bit like FIRST's goals! And it sure seemed to happen to every one of these teams, and many others.


And that, my friends, is what I Love about FIRST

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Here is 'some' objective data for this topic.

My goal was to see how accurate the ranking was to actual team performance.

Criteria:
- Used Andrew Schreiber database to obtain team data.
- Count = Sum of Chairmans, Champion, and Finalist Medals.
- Teams ranked by Count Since 2005, then Count since 2008, then Overall team metal count.

Started with the Top25 list...as I researched those teams I added in any teams that jumped out or I was interested in seeing how they compared.

Not all teams are included, and I am sure there are teams missing from this data. Feel free to update or post additional data.

*Couldn't find data on 64, so 39th Aero is not fully represented.*

Obviously FIRST is not all about winning competitions, but I have never seen our students more inspired and excited about participating in this program than when a machine they helped design, build, and operate has just won a competition.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I like that list lol :D

and on that list, you would have the 2008 Colorado Regional winning alliance!

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I'm not going to be scared to admit that I was one of the 6 voters. On the other hand, the list that got posted did differ a lot from the one I submitted. (Obviously understandable with 1/6th of the vote). If you'd like to see my ballot, let me know.

If you disagree with the list, then email or PM Josh and tell him you'd like to participate in voting. If you recall, he made a post earlier asking for people who would like to participate. If you find yourself disagreeing with the list, then help to make it better. There are over 1500 teams and only 25 make the list (1.7%).

Also keep in mind that this is a preseason list. If I recall correctly, we will be re-ranking teams before the week 1 regionals.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I love the idea and I think he gives a lot better explinations then lets say the BCS does of there picks for the top 25. Plus, I donno bout evryone else but I love watching huge upsets (cept App. State), like Michigan beating Duke and UCLA so if you somebody is a little upset, do something about it, nobodys place is solidified on the list and I would love to see a rookie team end up in the top ten by the end of the year. Personally I'd rather have the target be taken off of our back.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

If people feel bad about themselves after not seeing their team on the list then you need to consider something. If you were one of the voters would you really put your team ahead of any of the teams on the list? I love my team as much as the next person but I realize that we are not consistently at the level of the teams on this list.

I think this list is fun little thing to look at and once we see some robots I think the list will change. Just have fun with it, don't take it to seriously.

I hope everyone has a great FRC season!!

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Well, this is good for us, considering our robot didn't go one match in Eruption without something important breaking. Hopefully we can improve a little.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

How about a google map of the locations of the Top 25 teams? It would be very interesting to see this.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I made a Google map after your suggestion, because I was actually very curious to see what it would turn out like. Here it is:
Top 25 Map

There is certainly a big cluster on the western coastal area of Lake Michigan and then another big cluster on the eastern side of Michigan border/ the Canadian area.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

It's a learning curve. Many rookie teams and some veterans are happy just to be able complete the build and prepare for the pending competition(s). As veteran teams mature then their aspirations mature with them, change with them. Rookie teams and 1st and 2nd year teams can have break-out years in some areas, true - but it takes growth, development, and constant awareness/vigilance to become strong in all the areas of the FRC competition.

With regard to some of the blanket statements I read about 'FIRST is not about winning' - it makes me think of the Recognition part of FIRST that isn't talked about much. It is thrown in with the whole shibang but I rarely see it discussed by itself. Recognition plays a big part: recognizing achievements, successes, attitude, wins, reputations, career paths, innovations, developments and initiatives. It can also be about how the teams/individuals have garnered their achievements/successes.

Nothing comes easy in FRC, from finding sponsors through finding mentors through sticking with a budget, time line, game plan. All of it takes a lot work, a lot of thought, a lot of team effort. If there are a small group of people who put together a poll ranking teams, I'm sure they are taking all of this into consideration.

Also, this is CD. It is an informal poll, created by, again, a small group of people, who care about teams and value achievements. I'm not big on just looking at the FRC competitions through a sports lens, I think that limits/narrows the possibilities and opportunities of the FRC community but I can see that it creates an easy handle for young people and to an extent, marketing the competitions/program.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I see your point, and respect your opinion, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

First of all, I don't think this can really make anyone feel bad. Teams earn recognition. I'm not saying teams that aren't on this list haven't earned recognition, but part of FIRST is performance and part of it is branding your team. The teams on this list have performed outstandingly in the past few years as well as years before that, and are being recognized for it. This gives all FIRST teams just one more thing to strive to be. We all look up to these great teams as well as teams that didn't make it on the list. As a future goal of my team, I would love to try to get my team onto this list.
As for "forcing opinions out of people," I'm sure people wouldn't have voted if they didn't think this was a good idea.

I think the ranking system is a great idea. It gives teams a chance to live up to their expectations and others a chance to prove themselves. I look forward to seeing how accurate it is.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I believe 25 and 2056's locations are mixed up.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I am honored that my team, 330 made the list in the first place. We try very hard to help other teams develop the resources and depth that we have managed to accumulate over the years.

I think that teams that are not on this list and want to be on future lists sit down with a local team that is and ask them about what they do and how they do it.

FIRST rewards teams that help others. The best way to do well at a competition is to have good partners. In the case of top-level teams, this means pulling the other teams up to your level. That can mean anything from helping adjust strategy during a match to helping machine parts for another team. The vast majority of the 51 teams on the complete list understand this and practice it.

Most of the top level teams will be happy to help struggling teams. If they are local and familiar with your team, they might have been anxiously waiting for you to ask for help, knowing that unsolicited advice is rarely taken. Look at this list as a way to identify those teams that are most likely to be able to help you with your problems.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I'm quickly becoming confused by this thread. There are a fair number of people arguing against this top 25 list on these grounds:

• It can be discouraging to rookie and "weaker" teams
• It has a ridiculously small sample size
• It's based on relatively little besides popularity

Basically, those against are arguing that the validity of the list is extremely low, and it might be harmful to other teams, theirs included. Meanwhile, the supporters are arguing:

• It will be encouraging to rookie and "weaker" teams
• It has a ridiculously small sample size
• It's based on relatively little besides popularity

So it seems that people supporting the list are arguing that it has little validity, so people shouldn't really care what it says, and it might encourage some teams, theirs included. Also, anyone who's discouraged by something like this is just silly, a wimp, or doesn't have the right priorities.

So, it seems like everyone can agree that the list itself has little bearing on reality and how teams will perform this season. It seems the argument is mainly down to whether having a public display of popularity and notoriety is a good thing or not. It is perhaps obvious at this point that I don't think trying to create a FIRST based popularity contest is a good thing.

So, I'll argue that this pointless poll is harmful. At the very least, it's not beneficial in any meaningful sense. As we can see in this thread, it's primarily generating argument over whether particular "elite" teams are ranked properly or deserve to be on it. I can guarantee you that none of the teams on this list and none of the teams with a remote chance of getting on this list actually need the "motivation" purportedly provided by it. They know they're excellent, and they strive for excellence every year in everything they do. I seriously doubt the prospect of moving up or down a rung on such a silly poll is really going to matter. Especially considering the teams that actually have a chance of making it on this list.

And yes, let's be honest and admit that there are a huge number of teams that have no chance of making it on this list, or the post-build list, or whatever other lists there are. Teams that don't post on CD about their robots won't be on this list. Rookies teams that win regionals probably won't be on this list next year because they don't have enough "history". Middle of the road teams that are consistently good partners, but rarely alliance captians... One regional teams... Basically, this list is set up to celebrate "elite" multiple regional teams that wins tons of matches, championships, etc. that everyone already knows about. Which seems very wrong to me given the rhetoric I often hear around here about good support robots for 2nd and 3rd picks being important for a winning alliance, etc. etc. To me, all a list like this is saying to these teams, is that they're only important in so far as they help these elite Top 25 teams maintain their eliteness. And that the only way these teams are going to achieve their own eliteness is to forget about being a supporting robot, forget about being a team player, and go all out for being a top seeded team that consistently dominates the other teams. Which is perfectly fine if we actually want to go that route and model ourselves after the cut-throat, win at all costs, nobody matters but my team mentality that pervades (nearly all) college and professional sports... But I could have sworn we were really aiming for a different kind of culture in FIRST.

So, in summary, I think it's a useless, meaningless "poll" with little bearing on reality and can be safely ignored as a predictor of actual success of any teams. I also think that it's one of the many aspects of the over-hyped college sports media complex that we would be much much better off ignoring.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Is this run by looking forward?

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I wouldn't count on it. When did you take your WAI picture?;)

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I know a lot of people from smaller teams are outraged over this survey, but I learned something from it:

Vegas this year is gonna be INTENSE.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Nice list. Thanks for taking the time to create it for us to discuss here.
For the people perhaps upset that they are not up there: Even if the next 26 teams who got votes are mentioned, and your team doesn't make it, spot #52 is not contested. How do you know you would not have been voted in the next spot? #52 out of 1500 is nothing to gripe over. Also, it's just a list.

As far as making FIRST more like sports, I'm not so sure that's a great idea. My reasoning: go to an NFL game. What makes you want our events to be like that? The fans there have passion just as much as us but are crude and inconsiderate. I prefer FIRST to not be like sports personally.

-Begin Rant-
In regards to the accuracy of the list, my guess is that is regionally biased somehow unless the people voting were from many different parts of the world and truly had no preference. You see it in the AP and BCS polls all the time that people are regionally biased. Of course since I attend FLR every year, I'm going to say 340, 1126, 191, 365, and all the other great teams there are awesome. I get to see them every year. My suggestion... if you want to rank teams, get computer rankings. I know a lot of people will say "but that's what is wrong with college football!" Really? Is that what you think or what you've heard ESPN say 1000 times. We're in the fields of science and technology, there must be some people out there that would be able to trust a formula carried out by a computer. In fact, go look at some statistics about computer rankings in the BCS and how often they get proven correct at the end of the bowl season. It's staggering.
-End Rant-

But seriously, nice list.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I was honored to be one of the voters on this poll...

I am mostly surprised not to see 191 in here.
I mean - their history is awesome, and they are a great team every year.

It shows that one of the main considerations in other voters was last year's performance...i thought more of history.

anyhow, here's the list i gave:
1)71
2)1114
3)217
4)111
5)67
6)103
7)365
8)233
9)254
10)330
11)45
12)47
13)968
14)40
15)987
16)1024
17)191
18)16
19)842
20)1124
21)1902
22)2056
23)236
24)1625
25)148

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

If you examine the attached excell doc. found in thread entry #37, you will see an effort to reduce subjectivity for ratinig purposes (a simple formula but one that offers correlational suggestion for ranking based on field and Chairman's success)...granted what one makes of the data is still a subjective experience since most of us agree that there is so much more to FIRST than winning. How one interprets the excell rating depends on how much weight they think winning competitions and Chairman honors should carry in their decision to list their "top" 25. Past performance (especially recent) can provide predictive opportunity-look at how bookmakers make lines on games and over the long run predict success of given teams with enough accuracy to make billions from less analytical bettors. It certainly moves the argument away from a "popularity" based ranking system though...and don't forget that performance based data lays the foundation for any great scouting program that so many teams use to help choose alliance partners.

When all is said and done, the originating top 25 list is simply a compilation of opinions and a great spring board for discussing what may constitute a "top" team. Every student in this great organization is already part of an elite group when one considers the hundreds of thousands of high school students not involved in this movement...

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Your right! Vegas is going to be crazy, and the most competitive regional in my opinion this year.

-Keaton

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I haven't looked at the final lists for all regionals recently, but Vegas definitely has the potential to be the most competitive. I'm excited, I imagine the finals will be a big shootout. I hope the alliances get fragmented, so there are 4-8 real competitive alliances, rather than 2-3.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I'm honored that Team 233 is number three on the list, but I'm the first to admit that rankings like this are just for fun. There are teams which are consistently good, but even the best teams have ups and downs in "reading" what it will take to play the new game well. To my team, our high ranking presents a challenge to prove that we belong there. To those who didn't make the list, you have the challenge of proving the six who made this list wrong. I, personally, have more fun exceeding expectations rather than falling short of expectations, which made the 1998 Championship I experienced with Team 45 so sweet. We had disastrous years in '96 and '97, and had maybe the most impressive turnaround in FIRST history to win in '98. The same can happen for those of you in teams that didn't make the "list." What I'm saying is this. Don't take rankings like this too seriously.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

You got me on that one, thanks. What year was their first Championship win?



This poll, albiet with only six voters, aims to represent which teams are most likely to do well in building robots, competeing at competitions, and how well they will do. Of course, not all teams are going to make this list. The voters, yet unnamed by myself, left many teams that deserve to be on this list off. I really wish I could have have moved team XXXX up or down a spot, but that would be dishonest so I just let it be. The reason I compiled this was for everyone's viewing pleasure. The idea is that, by the end of the season, we will have a perfect Top 25 Ranking. This idea won't happen, but it will become more closer to perfect.

This probably isn't really helping to promote FIRST, but it is helping to promote the competition itself. The FRC in the thread title stands for "FIRST Robotics Competition." In a competitive event like this, there will be teams that are better than others. Last year, my team finished with a record of 7-7-1, so there certaintly are better teams out there. Being able to accept this is part of the experience. I do not feel like crap because my team did not make this list, but I am proud and admirable of the teams that did.

This poll is not without bias. This poll represents the opinions of only six people. It is not ideal, but it is something. It may be as useless and meaningless as someone's predictions for a regional, but it is also as interesting as someone's predictions.

Changes need to be made to this poll. The most obvious is voters. If there is anyone who wants to become a voter, PM me. The more voters there are, the more fair this poll becomes. Next time the explanations, intended for those who don't already know about the team, will be left off. Instead, team number and name will be listed. Any other suggestions, complaints, and vain degradations would be appreciated. Suggestions would be most beneficial and productive, however.

The other 26 teams receiveing votes, which may be more interesting than the first 25, are:

11
40
47
60
69
79
93
100
118
121
179
180
191
236
343
348
359
469
488
503
910
1124
1717
1983
2171
2753

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

'93 I think?

Woah, 11 is up there?? Sweet to get some recognition. Did I vote in this for my own team and forget or something? lol

Btw 2753 is a good prediction of a team that will do well, but should most definitely not be up there considering the voting criteria. (Look at my profile's user title btw) =D

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

You guys have a great history, plus your performance last year wasn't exactly shabby. First seed on Archimedes? I believe your alliance brought our first defeat in 08 ;). I'm not surprised to see MORT in the next 26.


As for the extended list, I think it's a better reflection of the top teams we might see this season. I can see a good chunk of this year's top 25 coming out of these 51 teams, although there are a few I might add to the list, perhaps just out of local bias.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Hehe, as much as I love compliments to our team, that was not us. We actually didn't get to play a single match against you guys or with you :(

But thank you.:)

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I can't believe that 1126 did not receive one vote.
A snipet of their history....

2008 Finger Lakes Regional Finalist
2008 Buckeye Regional Champion
2007 Buckeye Regional Finalist
2006 Finger Lakes Regional Champion
2006 Champion - Galileo Division
2004 Champion - Newton Division
2004 Buckeye Regional Champion
2003 Champion - Newton Division
2003 Buckeye Regional Champion

:confused:

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Yeah, I also mentioned this.

As someone said to me earlier "1126 is the best team in FIRST that nobody talks about" and I agree 100%

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

You forgot 2008 IRI finalist.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Been thinking about this topic for a bit, and I think it better belongs in the same forum as Fantasy FIRST, and other games.

I also suggest changing the name to include Poll versus Rankings, unless of course the list will be based upon some type of ranking criteria, once the FIRST season begins. Posting the criteria for the ranking would be a good idea, so everyone betters understands how and why the order is what it is.

Those that don't find games interesting usually skip or ignore that forum, and it cuts down on alot of argueing over silly things, when there are so many more important issues to be concerned with.

No offense meant to the organizers or poll participants, no offense meant to any teams listed, or not listed.

Best of Luck in this upcoming FIRST season,

Mike Aubry

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned 175 yet. They seem to be very solid every year not to mention their Chairman's award in 2002.

I'm also just as surprised as anyone else that 1126 didn't make it. I would have thought team 48 would have a received at least one vote. They have historically been a pretty solid team.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Someone did mention 175 earlier in the thread. I agree wholeheartedly, I was surprised to see that they didn't even get one vote to make it onto the list of 51 teams. They are a very solid team, look at just some of their history:
2008 CT Regional Champion
2007 NH Regional Champion
2006 MD Regional Champion
2005 CMP Champion - Curie Division
2004 CMP Champion - Curie Division
2003 NH Regional Champion
2003 CMP Champion - Galileo Division
2002 NJ Regional Chairman's Award
2002 CMP Chairman's Award Winner
2001 CT Regional Champion
2001 NJ Regional Champion
2000 NJ Regional Champion
1998 NJ Regional Champion

That would be 8 regional wins, 3 since 2005, on Einstein 3 times, and the Championship Chairman's award.

The thing is, there are other teams we can go through and do this for as well, and they also look very worthy of being on this list. There are so many great teams in FIRST right now that it's hard to fit all noteworthy teams into a list that's only 51 teams long. I bet if someone else proposed a new list of the top 51 for 2009, we'd find other teams that deserved to be on it as well.

As other people have been saying, don't take this list as an insult to your team if your team didn't make it to the list. Realize that this is by no means any guarantee of who will do well in 2009, and you have the power to put yourself onto lists like this before the regionals and the Championship. In any case, the 51 teams mentioned are all teams we can look up to as an example of what we can achieve.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

175 were on my first list, but for some reason that was obvious to me back than i removed them.
1574 have won every regional they have ever attended (4 out of 4 in Israel), and in the last 2 years made it to semi finals and finals of Newton as alliance head, which is in my opinion very impressive and gives them an opening to be in the top 25, but the still are not.

48 is also a very good and professional team, but their 2008 run hasn't been good enough to put them there.

I am mostly surprised though, to see 71 not being in the top 2 teams. They have by far the most impressive record in competitions and won Chairman's last year at Midwest, with a very hard competition there.

1114 and 217 moved up a lot as a result of their championship, and i'd bet my hat that top 5 will not be the same by the end of the season.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I mean it is really hard to predict the standings, after all it isnt like football where the game doesnt change every year. i am disappointed that 384 didnt make it but you know i didnt like the concept of the rankings to begin with.
Every year holds a new oppurtunity and we should not already assign who wins it
Good Luck for the 2009 Season

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

If I was going to pick a regional to attend this year, it would have to be Vegas. The teams attending are just insanely amazing and the town itself is brilliant. There is something about it that you can't explain and have to see for yourself. Just the grandness of it all.

Back to the discussion of the list now, I was really surprised 71 didn't end up in the top 3 as well. My submitted top 10 was:

1. 1114
2. 254
3. 71
4. 233
5. 67
6. 968
7. 16
8. 217
9. 111
10. 330

Taking a look at it again, I'm actually pretty happy with it still. I had a little knowledge as to a few teams (330 and 217) who are using new drivers next year. From what I heard 330 had the same 2 drivers for the past four years. 217 had 2 new guys at IRI I believe. I'm sure there is another one or two on my list that have new ones as well that I'm not aware of.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I'll admit, I'm one of the voters. I'm also the one that put 2753 on my list (#25), partly because a) if anyone remembers 1902's rookie year, 2753 has that kind of start and b) there isn't an "outstanding rookie" area.

I also considered region when I made my list. I didn't just confine myself to the West Coast (my region of expertise), but looked at various regions--the East Coast, Midwest, Florida, CA, Pacific Northwest, HI, etc.

There are teams who miss the list. In the BCS this year, who would have thought about Texas Tech at the beginning of the season? As such, I expect that 1126 and 175 will find their way onto the list very soon.

Just for grins, I might also put the FF top 25 point-getters up from time to time. This could be an interesting thought exercise.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I am sure this may have already been stated. But when you look at this from a rookie stand point, it may be discouraging, but it may also benefit more because the rookie teams will know a source of teams from which they can get tips about what to do because apparently they always do good. Just my opinion. Sorry if it was stated already.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I can see this getting interesting real fast....

yeah you know I've something to say about about it... 1024 ranked 11th?
I'd love to know how you came up with that? Maybe if they win EVERYTHING they show up at this year you might take notice.

And 1124 shut out of the list? tisk tisk tisk...:ahh:
Your top three I do agree with... the rest... as my old boss would say, a little more thinking should have gone into it.

-p :cool:

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Interesting,
The best performing Hawaii team over the years, is not even on the list. Team 368. They represented Hawaii well at IRI and I'm sure other teams there thought so too. ;)
There list of awards, per no. of events they attend is mightily impressive to say the least.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

We did in fact have some new drivers at IRI - 4 different students who rotated and had minimal competition practice. We generally treat IRI as a learning experience. I'm still surprised that our team was #2 on the overall list. Recent performance must have had a significant effect on the voters.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Don't sell yourselves short. It's not just your recent performance, look at the consistency...


2008 CMP Championship Winner
2008 CMP Champion - Galileo Division
2008 DT Regional Champion
2008 MO Regional Champion
2008 GL Regional Finalist
2007 MO Regional Finalist
2007 DT Regional Chairman's Award
2006 DT Regional Chairman's Award
2006 DT Regional Champion
2006 CMP Champion - Archimedes Division
2006 CMP Championship Winner
2005 CMP Champion - Archimedes Division
2005 DT Regional Champion
2003 GL Regional Finalist
2003 PIT Regional Finalist
2001 NAT Division Champion - Curie

Top three team for sure.

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

and the fact that our alliance beat the #1 ranked team in this poll in 2 matches

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Maybe its good to not be on the list. Kind of like a sleeper team. But I know the teams in the Rochester, NY area await with great anticipation each year (and a little quaking in our boots :ahh: ) to see what 1126 will come up with!

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I agree. I can't wait to see what they come up with. They are one of the few teams that I don't mind getting beat by every year ;)

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

I hear ya too, I can't even go in to see what they have built. :p

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Four years of you was more than enough...

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

agreeeeeeed :D

just kidding alex

Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking
 

Can't wait for another chance to do the same. We don't need no stinkin' serpentine... ;)