BattleBots IQ
 

I just received this email (notice the mandatory control system is also by Innovation First):
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM BATTLEBOTS INC.

Yes! It is finally here! Battlebots is proud to announce the first ever
BattleBots High School Competition!

Here's the info we have for you now: (subject to changes)
* The Competition will be held in Orlando, Florida at Universal Studios on
March 29th & 30th, 2002.

* Check-in and Safety/Tech inspection dates to be announced.

* The Competition will be for students 12-18 years of age - Each Team must
have an adult guardian/advisor.

* There will be one (1) weight class - Middleweight robots only (see
standard BattleBots Technical Regulations for details - available here
http://www.battlebots.com/bnc_rules.asp).

* All entrants MUST use the Isaac16 or Isaac32 control system from IFI
Robotics (http://www.ifirobotics.com) to conform with safety requirements.

* We are working on getting special rates for hotels and will have more
information shortly.

* Look for more explicit details in the comings months.

We are very excited about this upcoming event. We are also looking into the
possibility of having regional competitions in the Summer of 2002 for
further BattleBots High School Competitions.

I would very much appreciate all of you sending me your names and addresses.
We will determine where to hold future regional competitions depending on
the feedback we get from the various regions of the country. This is the
beginning of something really neat and you can be a part of the premiere
competition.

I look forward to hearing from all of you as soon as possible as we need to
lay the groundwork NOW. If you think there is a good possibility of your
team attending the Orlando Competition, please let me know as we will have
to limit the number of teams for the premiere event.

Stay tuned and keep in touch!

Sincerely,

BattleBots Inc.
Attn: Nola Garcia, Education Director
nola@battlebots.com

hmmm...



i know where my heart is and always will be. it is in FIRST!!

are you kidding me!?!?
 

Please don't try to pretend your little IQ whatever event is for kids or for noble reasons. I have no problem with battlebots as a business, but when you post to FIRST teams trying to LEACH off of FIRST for "customers" - which is all they are to you (they may have fooled you by giving you the title “education director”, when in reality your “corporation” is making a profit off of students & schools), you should be ashamed.

FIRST exists to inspire and help kids - your competition is a well concealed and integrity lacking event looking to PROFIT off of kids. The day you hold these competitions as a non-profit, then try to influence FIRST teams. Until them, show a little class, and don’t try to infect the FIRST competition with the bad ideals, bad messages, and profit goals of Battlebots. Please let FIRST be what it is without dragging it down to the depths of your "make money off of kids & schools" corporation.

I realize that there are those who care so much about making money that they will do anything, even try to make it off of kids & schools – but can’t you find better ways to make a profit? While FIRST is truly the Olympics of Academic Achievement, Battlebots is a nice little spectator event with all the use to society of a Family Feud episode between Baywatch and Americas Most Wanted.

Leave “impacting education”, and the “inspiration/motivation” of students to the numerous programs out there (not just FIRST, or FLL – but many others) who are noble & genuine in their quest to help students build a brighter future. Don’t belittle those organizations with your weak, dumbed down, insult to intelligence, WWF/XFL, 3rd class attempt to rip off FIRST to make a dime.
As passionate as I obviously am about this, this is not intended to be personal towards you (you probably really do care about education, just are being misguided by Vince McMahon or Don King). This is directed at your bosses and their corporation. Try to get customers from FIRST once your bosses are offering participants 2 million dollars in scholarships from universities (not TV companies) instead of pocketing 2 million (more, I'm sure) for their bank accounts.

Great reply
 

It's great to see an impassioned response SUPPORTING FIRST amongst this log jam of concern over "The EPCOT Invitational". I would like to present my opinion, too.

I remember earlier this summer that some teams, great ones in fact, mentioned having some FIRSTers compete in Battlebots to show "them" how a real robot is made. While I don't think a FIRSTer actually went out that minute and built a BBot over the summer, there are several current and former FIRST teams that compete in BB.

I can understand how some are against BB because of the "violence". Obviously, one robot destroying another robot could be compared to modern day gladiators.

As with every high school team, the students must come first. Otherwise, you are frauding the sponsors to fund your hobby. You have to learn what your team needs.

Are the students mature, smart young adults that need an intellectual challenge?

Are they young students that need a strong hand to guide them?

Do they need to learn the details of machine design or is a boost to their self-esteem more important?

If you find the answers, then you must ask "am I capable of giving this to them?"

Whether your team competes in FIRST or Battlebots, your are providing an experience to the students and to the adults. Each event has its strengths and weaknesses, but neither should be weakened so the other may succeed.

If we learn anything from the tragedy, I hope that it is to accept difference.

-Jason

To FIRST Fan
 

Your fury is somewhat misdirected. I received that email from Nola Garcia who is working with Battlebots to run the new competition.
This has been a long running and heated debate (notice the almost religious fervor that eruprts?) and I won't feed the fire anymore--at least not now. But I will say that:

-Nola, the key person organizing this, has also done some HUGE work for FIRST in terms of organizing teams creating postseason competitions, etc. She is the nicest, most caring person on the face of this Earth (as you rightly predict.)

-Her "bosses", Greg Munson and Trey Roske of Battlebots, are pretty far from "Don King" and "Vince McMahon." You have to be familiar with them and BattleBots to understand this (and I know you are not.)

-The end result of this competition, besides some beaten robots and insanely-enthused childeren, will be tremendously POSITIVE and so much the same as Dean's ultimate goal.

I posted the email because it (very obviously) would interest FIRST competitors. If they enter BB instead of FIRST they would do so because it would benefit their needs better. And if Battlebots is in fact so malicious and money-oriented then you'll be glad to get rid of them, RIGHT? Well you're actually wrong there because the former-FIRST competitors I have met in Battlebots have been absolutely exceptional people (a Woodie Flowers award winner is in that bunch.) They all love FIRST and Dean, but certain parts (like the time crunch, the cost, and the incredible difficulty of teaching AND building a bot at the same time) were too much.
Dan

I feel that Battlebots IQ could be a wonderful program for many FIRST participants, but this posted letter I feel should not have been put up on this sight. If Battlebots was not run at the same time frame as FIRST I could understand pulling FIRSTers into it. But to basically put up and advertisement for a program which would require teams to choose one or the other on a website promoting FIRST is uncalled for. If the dates were late summer or early fall I'm sure many teams would be happy to have a robotic competition to compete in on the "off-season" Its not a matter of beating up robots or not, you will still learn from either program. But loyalties need to lie with FIRST right now so we can support there hard decisions about how to handle so many teams.

"But to basically put up and advertisement for a program which would require teams to choose one or the other on a website promoting FIRST is uncalled for. "


I don't see why you guys should be so threatened by my post.
First of all, I don't consider it an "advertisement." The nature of the email is purely informative; there was no effort to glamorize the event.
Pretty much everyone has heard of BBIQ and those interested would have asked for more info by now. I do agree that this should have been in the "Off Topic" folder and so that may have put some spin on my post. I'm sorry for that.

But do you also oppose other discussions about BBIQ? Are they not supposed to mention the actual event in that discussion so we can remain loyal to FIRST? And besides, there is limited room for teams at BBIQ as well--probably much, much tighter than at FIRST.

If, for some reason, someone sees this and switches their interest to Battlebots this year--then I see no reason to feel guilty. They'd switch because they felt they could reach their goals better doing BBIQ--if only for this year. So what's wrong with that? There are always choices in life, that's what makes it so great.
Dan

Re: BattleBots IQ
 

Somehow it doesn't surprise me that it's at Universal Studios. And if anything, this is a reason Disney should keep on supporting FIRST. It makes me wonder, if Disney didn't do FIRST, do you think Universal would do Battlebots? (Unless Universal has an affiliation with comendy central or battlebots) You gotta love business competition.

~Christina

I was out canning the other day, and some guy said to me: "Oh, so you do Battlebots, right?".

That wouldn't bother me if he said that at first, but I had just gotten done explaining what FIRST is to him, its mission, and what we do as a team. But after all that explaining (5-10 minutes of conversation), to come out and say that just made me feel like crap.

If there is a conflict between FIRST and Battlebots (ratings and popular-wise), Battlebots will win that fight [popular-wise to the general public].

I'm just wondering why they picked dates so close to the FIRST Nationals, though.

Re: BattleBots IQ
 

Hm... apparently BattleBots forgot to notice the fact that March 29th is Good Friday, and March 31st is Easter. At least FIRST has an excuse (no way to shift the entire 4 month schedule one way or another), but BattleBots has only one event and one place (Orlando), while FIRST has 17 regionals over a 4 week period all over the nation.

Try scrounging up the money, building a robot, competing on 1 day (which if they run it like BattleBots, is the qualifying day where matches are not televised, are only 2 minutes, and have no field hazards), and then going home the very next day with a destroyed robot and $5000 down the drain.

Although I guess it is reassuring that no one bothered enough about the competition to check the dates.

Battlebots
 

My name is Nola Garcia and I have participated in FIRST for 6 years. I hold Dean Kamen in the highest regard as well as FIRST. Both of my sons have participated in FIRST and the older one just graduated from MIT with a degree in mechanical engineering. I do believe that FIRST was influencial in his choice of careers. My team was among the teams who took first place in the Galileo Division at Nationals. We have been recognized for our enthusiasm and love for FIRST. I am also the Education Director at BattleBots.
That being said I ask you this - can a person like chocolate ice cream AND strawberry ice cream at the same time? Does either flavor have to be bad for the other to be good? This year our students are participating in BOTH FIRST and BattleBots. There is no conflict for us. FIRST has always said that it is about Inspiration. They have inspired thousands of young people. BattleBots IQ has a high school robotics curriculum and is about Education. ( Teams that compete in BattleBots do not have to be part of the curriculum program).
One of the posts said that BattleBots is only about profit - well I have to set the record straight.
BattleBots IQ is a not for profit venture. The creators - Trey Roski and Greg Munson have poured hunderds of thousands of dollars of their own money into this. They wanted to take some of their profits from BattleBots and put them into a program that would benefit young people. The registration for Battlebots is LESS than $100
How, I ask that person, is that taking advantage of young students and schools? The high school teams will have the same opportunity to have their robots made into toys and receive the same profits as the regular Battlebots builders do. There is prize money as well as possible scholarship money available for the contestants as well.
As far as the dates for the competition and where it is held - the major television network needs a certain amount of footage by a certain date and the dates were chosen for that fact alone. Universal Studios has a facility that is perfect for the taping of the competition for the show. Universal is willing to discount thier prices for the teams as well as helping to find reasonable lodging for them.
When I first joined the FIRSt team I was impressed by Dean's mission to get kids excited about science, engineering and technology. I have seen first hand many kids as well as professionals like physicians, engineering professors, lawyers, major corporate executives from Intel and Microsoft get excited about BattleBots and it's effect of getting kids excited about engineering. Many have told me that they are happy to see so many young people designing robots as a result of watching the show. Physics teachers have told me that it is the first time in their career that they are popular with their students because they want explainations about how the robots work. Dean's dream of having engineers be heroes is alive because I see kids swarm Mark Setrakian, Jim Smentowski, Donald Hutson and others who are great engineers.
I leave you with this thought - My hope is that both FIRST and BattleBots prosper and draw to them the teams that will most benefit from what they have to offer.
I look forward to replies.
Thanks,
Nola Garcia
Team #59 ( FIRST)
Buddy Lee Stay in Your Seat ( Battlebots)

Well said Nola!

This is a long running, high-tempered debate on this forum usually and I have to agree-- does one have to be bad for the other to be good? No, of course not.

We all watch Battlebots, Robotica, Robot Wars, etc, etc. If they truly were "bad" we wouldn't be tuning in to those channels. The fact is that we share a common bond w/ every Battebot-er around: science. technology, robots, greasy hands, etc EXCITE us..

And if Battlebots were just in it for the money- who cares?! They are providing people a forum to get there technological abilities out in the spotlight and showing America that brains are cool too..

And if some kid watching at home decides to be an engineer from it.. or a team sees that BattlebotsIQ is a more cost efficient method of inspiration and brings there kids into that.. go for it.. because in the end.. if those same kids go to college and get degrees in a technical field.. Dean's mission and dream will be accomplished and they won't be any less of engineers than anyone here... So we should all be happy that Dean's dream of filling all the available technical jobs is happening w/ some helping hands from other groups.

And I think it was find to post the letter there, I was actually going to if someone hadn't already as an INFORMATIONAL thing in case people were interested in BBIQ.

And congrats to Nola and those putting together the program.. I've see some of the manual ideas and stuff like that, and it really looks like an admirable program.

Now, I haven't taken psychology (yet, at least).....but my gut is telling me that this good robot competition/bad robot competition stuff is coming from fear. Fear of being undercut, fear of losing national corporate sponsorship, fear of never getting serious media coverage, fear of always hearing someone say "Oh, you mean <<insert robot TV show here>>?" when youre talking about FIRST...all stuff that has been ingrained into our heads since we joined into FIRST.

Im not saying that this is a bad thing, but we were always asked to help FIRST grow...our Chairmans award is based upon that simple idea. And theres nothing wrong with that either.

Seriously, I think part of the issue is that both competitions are going after the same target audience. Before, Battlebots was more of an adult thing, but with adding IQ into it, it is seen as threatening because it is infringing on an audience who FIRST once had spoken for on a national level.

And that's scary. I'd be scared too if come 10 years from now noone I knew could recognize what I spent the majority of my high school career doing.

But.....nothing to fear but fear itself, my dears. All we can do now is wait and see....as we all try to do the best we can.

Off topic PS - Nola, if you have any say in the matter, please educate the current female announcer! The woman from the first season was good.

Um.. something tells me a background in engineering is NOT a requirement for being a battlebot announcer... :D

Though they do have Bill Nye.

Hey not to say it will change but FIRST is probobly weeding out the "unloyal teams".

and i think there will be a drastic drop in team this and following years

Unloyal Teams??
 

I don't understand what the term "unloyal teams" means. In all six years of being involved in FIRST it has taken quite a bit of hard work, fundraising, organization ect. to go to Regionals and Nationals. Any team who registers and comes up with a robot should not be called "unloyal". I think that it is a poor choice of words. Everybody kows what it takes to be a FIRST team and all teams should be applauded! The students, parents, mentors, and sponsors are all heroes!!
:)

I chose my words wrong what I ment to say was the team and students that just compete to get to florida and win the big awards Thats what i ment

I have been in FIRST since 1994. I have given alot to FIRST. The thing I do not like was the way the Nationals are being done. I am from team 61. This is the first time that we can not go to the national. This is do because we do not have the funds to book the trip in a short time.

BattleBots open our eyes this year. We were looking for something else to do because the group that we grew to love does not love us any more. How can FIRST, after 8 years of us sending the news and getting alot of team to do FIRST be told sorry you can't go to the nationals.

This year is our last year with FIRST. only because we started our fund raising after the last national or we would not even have signed up this year.

We as a school will be going to BattleBots. We will be putting 3 robots in. under 60lbs, under 120lbs and under 220lbs.

this will cost us so much less than putting one robot in FIRST. Plus as a trade school we can work on these robots all year. We are getting more sponsor now that we are going to BattleBots. And I think that is because they watch it on TV and know more about it.

I am sorry for what FIRST has done. They took a good program at our school and forced us to another event.

I understand your disapppointment with the qualification process for nationals, but to say FIRST "doesn't love us" is not true.

I think most people were amazed nationals remained open for so long; the huge amount of teams and people was always just a little more than they could handle--but they did anyways.

And hopefully this will make nationals a little more "special" to those who can attend, maybe someday it will draw comparisons to March Madness--it probably never would if it remained open.

Oh, and I didn't know about this nationals hub-bub until after I started this thread...I don't think I would have had I known it. While I'm happy that your team may find a competition more suitable to your scenario, I don't think this nationals qualification business is a good reason to consider switching. On the contrary I think it will make it more exciting.

Dan

I am fine having the nationals. but make it fair for everybody. If they had all the regionals earlier and then have the national 2 months for the last regional. then I would say it would mean something. Even if I win a regional I do not have the money to send our robot to Florida. Is that fair. Having a robot that has a chance of winning and never given the chance. The first robot we builtin 1994 never moved. we went from that to beingin the last two year 6th at the national and the past year made it to the round of 16 until the #1 team knock us off.

Fair is not depending on your partners to do well for you to do good. If you do not get the luck of the draw, you have a slim chance of winning. The best robots don't always win. That was find until you bring in that you have to win a regional to make it to national or do something to get a judges eye.

I look out for the students I have. I can't tell these kids that go ahead an work 16-18 hours a day on the robot, but you can't get to the nationals this year. Our sponsors are looking for us to go and we have to tell them sorry wait til next year.

sorry this has put a bad taste in my mouth that I can not over come. or should have to.

The money raised goes a long way in another robot game.

The sad part is I have a College willing to give a scholarship this year for anyone that was involved with FIRST. They are rethinking this.


You can go on and on and say these things about FIRST. I love them very much but they went somewhere I can not go.

Sorry.

:confused: Life ? Fair ? Robotics ?

Life is not fair yes. I have been trying to get kids do robotics. I will not get kids involved if they know going in to it that things are not fair.

What a statement Fair. This game has always not been fair because of the sponsorship. Some teams have so much money they can go to all the regionals to test there robot out at each regional. and pay for things other team can't.. This I would say is still fair becuase a team that build a robot usings very little money can still beat the one that spends alot of money.

What is not fair is not getting that chance.

So why would you stick around when that happens.

Maybe the rules change again next year and the odd teams can't get in. and only the teams that get in are the teams that do well at the regionals. that will do us in again because of the money problems.

If the game is not fair WHY PLAY.:mad:

Quote:
"Life is not fair, why live?:confused:
Just because something is not fair doesn't mean it's not right. When I was still living at home my mom's rules were not fair but they were there and a few of them turned out to be right on target."


I do not know what life you have been living. But if you think your parents were unfair that is because there was something they were trying to protect you from. This is a "game" that is it. the game that you build a robot and play. The game tell you you can't win why PLAY:confused:

A game that you have to put so much time into it and to be told sorry you can't play.

Fair is getting that chance. Do use life as a pawn in this. Look at it for what it is. Very unfair.

If they do not want to lose people they should of not pushed so hard to get more people then they can handle. makes no sense.

FIRST always said they would take everybody. They knew how big they were going to get.

FIRST did not want to listen to us. I was one of few people that went and talk in August about what to do.

That made no different:mad:

Battlebots: you play pre-matches to go onto the finals.. but you are there at the compitition. everybody gets a chance. The top robots do not have to go thru this pre-game. they just go onto the finals. Maybe FIRST should look at there format.

FIRST could of done many things to solve this problem. they chose the easy way out.

Maybe......
 

Maybe they just simply ran out of time to decide things......Maybe next year they will have a better solution on how to run things, after they see how this upcoming season goes.......

Just an idea......:)

Fair to what ends?
 

When you say "fair" you mean it may not be fair in terms of the competition. But, really, we know that's not necessarily the point of FIRST--it's for inspiration and recognition, right? Some may not agree, but I don't think nationals is necessary for either of those--sure it helps.
Dan

how do you get nationally recognized if you can't go. FIRST was doing a good job getting kids into the robotic field because they had goals. and a good direction with this. I can teach kids all day every day in robotics. why should I now go to FIRST when they don't care if I go to the nationals.

My sponsors want to know what exposure they get. Yes I tell them the kids learn more meanning when the work force gets these kids they will be smarter. They are looking at the big piture When I tell them there is no national unless they want to pay at the last minute if we win a regional, they tell me why am I in a competition that does not offer that.

Once again I am back to BattleBots.:D

They teach kids if you win you get money so you can make a better robot. they teach a kid if you build a great robot maybe they will build a toy after it.

Yes money isn't everything but lets look at it:

BattleBots
You build a robot ( teaching kids about robots)

You play the game ( If you win you get money, TV exposure and More)

You have all year to make robot( given kids more time to make the robots )

You can enter in different wieght classes (more kids can do more)

You pay a lot less to enter.

FIRST

you build a robot

You play the game ( for a trophie, medal)

You have only six week to build the robot ( everybody stresses out)

One robot

You pay alot more


You tell me who is not looking at the big picture.:confused:

Who's looking at the big picture? Here's my take...
 

Your comment of FIRST not looking at the big picture troubles me. Your arguments seem to be based on some incorrect information about both programs - maybe pointing out some of these differences well help:

.....FIRST tries to provide 17 regionals in 5 weeks, trying to juggle that schedule best they can to be convenient to teams and lower travel costs for teams to compete. Some events land on Easter weekend, but that is because of the 17 in 5 weeks scenarios - at least they provide 17 options for teams

.....Battlebots starts ONE SINGLE event for high school kids, has ALL YEAR to pick a date, and picks Good Friday & Easter weekend. "Big Picture"???? You want to know why they picked THE ONE weekend which would be most inconvenient for many families? Because they answer to the TV company, not the best interest of students. (and that is not a guess - I know 1st hand from those involved that the date was picked by the TV producers with no concern for holiday/religious concerns of students)

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

The main point of all your arguements is that FIRST is limiting the National and not all teams can go. You argue Battlebots as an alternative - yet the SINGLE Battlebots event IS NOT OPEN TO ALL TEAMS AND WILL HAVE A LIMIT - just as FIRST has at Epcot. Only Difference - FIRST offers 17 other competitions around the country for teams to enter and reduce travel costs.

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

I will answer your other statements comparing Battlebots and FIRST after each of your comments:

You say about Battlebots:
They teach kids if you win you get money so you can make a better robot. they teach a kid if you build a great robot maybe they will build a toy after it.

I say about FIRST: EXACTLY!!!!! FIRST teaches kids that if you involved your school & your community (get more support, funding, resources) you can build a better robot. They teach kids there is more to life than concentrating on TOYS & MONEY! It is better to do something important, advance your education & go to college, involve your community and try to make it better, and to make a difference in the world.

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST


You say about Battlebots:
You build a robot ( teaching kids about robots)

I say about FIRST:
You build a robot and A LOT MORE (teaching kids not only engineering skills, but programming, graphics animation, how to build a business model, time management, accountability, awards submissions, working with real role models & professionals involved with the kids to inspire them - not to destroy someone else, win money & get a toy.
You play the game (have THREE days - not one like Battlebots. You play many times, getting to see some results to your long & hard work. FIRST provides a National like Battlebots, but also 17 REGIONALS so teams get to play more and aren't forced into travel costs if they can't afford it)

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

You say about Battlebots & FIRST:
You play the game ( If you win you get money, TV exposure and More) FIRST - You play the game ( for a trophie, medal)

I again say EXACTLY!!! FIRST says the process and the learning is what is important. Battlebots (and it seems you) say the winning, the prizes, and money are what is important.

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

You say about Battlebots & FIRST:
In Battlebots you have all year to build the robot, in FIRST you have only six week to build the robot ( everybody stresses out)

I say: who is preparing kids for the real life scenarios of College and Professional life? Do kids have all year to finish a term paper - no. Do we has a adults get all year to finish any assignment or task - rarely. Which of the two is challenging kids with a more life like experience which will help them better once they are out of high school? Once again, winner - FIRST.


You say FIRST offers one weight class but that in "Battlebots
You can enter in different wieght classes (more kids can do more)"
Let me paste DIRECTLY FROM THE BATTLEBOTS WEB PAGE about their high school event: """This will be a single (1) weight class event open to Middleweight robots only."""
Only difference - the FIRST game has various engineering challenges as oppossed to just destroying your oppenent. In a FIRST game, many teams are able to build small robots (under bar), medium robots (bridge, balance), and large robots (7 foot goals). By your very standars - it is actually FIRST which gives teams & kids the ability to build various sized robots. again...

Who "loves" their teams more? Seems obvious to me...FIRST

You say Battlebots is a lot less to enter and FIRST is more expensive. You are only looking at the registration fee. That does not include the parts, the motors, the control system, the travel to Florida (while many FIRST teams have local regionals with no travel expense), the limitless parts allowed in Battlebots, etc... I challenge you to tell me how many of the successful bots at the March Battlebots High School event actually spent less than $10,000. you won't find many - so Battlebots is not less expensive than FIRST, and is actually more expensive than FIRST to the majority of teams who FIRST provides local/regional competitions.


I am sorry this is so long, but I have been watching all these posts back and forth, and have just been amazed at the amount of incorrect information these arguments are being based on. Mike - as a fellow teacher, I have the utmost respect for you and your dedication to providing a postive experience for your students. I also have the common respect to realize that sometimes we just have to agree to disagree - so this post is not meant to be disrespectful in anyway. It is just that I see many passionate, dedicated people seemingly overreacting based on emotions because they are disappointed at the new FIRST limits in Orlando (which are reality and HAD TO HAPPEN. At least FIRST killed themselves for 10 years to allow everyone in, while Battlebots isn't even trying - having limits at their 1st event)

You previously said "FIRST doesn't love us" anymore. If FIRST was in this for money and Ratings - you are right, they would hold ONE event, on a date determined by the TV company, and put all their resources into that one event so they could make money - you would be right. Instead, FIRST is so concerned about ALL schools & students getting the opportunity and about keeping travel costs down for teams - that they instead increase the amount of tournaments in the country every year (17 regionals this year).

You ask who is not looking at the big picture. I'll let each person answer that for themselves. But I can answer who IS looking at the big picture, and the winner there is CLEARLY FIRST.

For those not looking at the big picture (or at least see the big picture in different colors than myself), those more concerned about money & toys than inspiration & real life experience - maybe Battlebots does fill a niche and is a better program for them.

I haven't posted in awhile - so this is my 2 cents for the last month or so all turned in at once. Sorry about the length.

Jason

just to clear some things up Battlebots yes have one game for students but they also put on one in the fall and late spring for everybody else so there is three competition a school can go to.


I have been in First since 1995, the school here has been it since 1994. I have an idea what has been going on in the past years. I have seen other teams come and go because of the things FIRST has done.

I could go on and on about thing but I am not a great writer so I can not get my point across as clear as I could hope for.

Give me a game were I can play and have a final winner. not a game were if you do end up winning, there our other robots better but you will never know.

FIRST is good of what they have done. I think they are going to hurt themself because of people like me that see this is getting out of control.

I am only talking for myself.

Most of the teams on the waiting list are not going to be happy if they can not get into a regional or national.

Well said Jason
 

Jason, you made many of the same points I've been holding back for the past few days. Excellent post.

Mike

Facts
 

I just wanted to make this absolutely clear--although I've posted this twice:
I started this thread; not a BattleBots staffperson, and definitely not Nola.
I started this thread.

I have no affiliation with BattleBots, nor any affiliation with FIRST. I have competed in both a number of times and I love them dearly.

The ONLY reason Nola of BattleBots IQ (and FIRST!) posted in this thread was to defend the accusations made against her and BattleBots--she was never selling BattleBots IQ to you the FIRST teams. She would have never posted regarding BBIQ had I not created this hoopla.

Any complaints about this thread should go to me:
dph@andrew.cmu.edu

Sorry if this seems off-topic, since it is. But there have been a lot of misunderstandings.
Dan

Just to point out.

My team (Team #88), except for 2 years, has always done extrememly well. Our first year, and Last year were the only exception to this. Should we have skipped the Regionals, and be allowed to compete in the finals because of this. I don't think so.

Also, to further clarify, Battelbots can afford to use that format, because the game doesn't change year to year. It's the same, so you can use the same robot.

As you know FIRST is based on the fact the game will change, so it would be impossible for them to goto that format without completely changeing the nature of their game.

BattleBots IQ is a threat...
 

We can all discuss the merits and sins of FIRST and Battlebots for years.

But, the bottom line for me is that I view BattleBots IQ as a huge threat to FIRST's ability to reach its stated goal of changing the entire culture.

FIRST has many advantages over BBIQ but the one thing that BBIQ has over FIRST is that BBIQ has a TV contract.

With a TV contract and the promotion that TV brings with it, the growth rate of BBIQ could easily make FIRST's 40% growth rate seem sluggish.

I think that FIRST should start to view BBIQ as a competitor and to COMPETE with them.

I am not asking for FIRST to sell its soul to the devil in order to get on TV, but I AM asking for FIRST to design a TV friendly game (i.e. easy to watch, easy to score, easy to explain).

I view this as the most critical year in FIRST's history. Between the economy and the damage done by last years game (yes, I said, "damage done"), FIRST needs to have the most exciting game they have ever devised.

This January we may all see the future of FIRST more clearly.

Joe J.

How can we get FIRST on TV?
 

Battle Bot is on TV because they can afford to pay for the TV contract... So what can FIRST do to get itself on TV?

Well, I don't think FIRST have a whole lot of money to pay any major channel to put a show on... The registration fee of teams don't even pay for all the cost of running competitions. Running 17 regional and 1 championship event is not cheat!

So, I guess the other way to do it is to convince the channels that there's an audience out there dying to watch the FIRST robotics competition. If we can get every high school across the country to have a robotics team, I bet those TV channels will see a demand for robotics shows, and decide it will be profitable for them to start producing something...

NASA have been nice enough to broadcast the competition on their channel, but how many family across the country have NASA TV in their area? If we want FIRST to be on TV, we have to show that there will be a lot of students wanting to watch the shows, and their family wanting to see their kids robot, and their family friends who heard about this wanting to see the show and decide if they want to send their kids to the robotics team in high school... etc.

How else can we get FIRST on TV? I don't think we can hope ESPN will be nice enough to give up showing Football or the x-game, or any other contract that give them millions of profit and donate part of their time for a small group of audience...

We can be on TV
 

Well said, Joe.

The FIRST teams have seen some of the changes in FIRST this year... maybe they have more in store for us. They've added staff to their "customer service" group, so maybe they've also added to their marketing effort. I hope so. With the added registrations and full Regionals, I hope that FIRST has enough cash to help promote the program.

FIRST has tried to get on TV for years, that's for sure. This subject of "marketing" FIRST really needs to be discussed somewhere else, because this is probably FIRST's biggest weakness... I go ahead and start a new thread so we can give this subject the attention it deserves.

Andy B.

BBIQ doesn't pay for TV time....
 

BattleBots nor BattleBots IQ pay to be broadcast on TV; on the contrary that's where they get almost all of their funding. They produce a product (the competition) and Comedy Central--maybe Fox Kids for BBIQ--pays them to film and broadcast it.

The reason BBIQ is on TV so quickly is because BattleBots has a proven television success. The first BattleBots was webcast by ZDtv, the second was pay-per-view, the following seasons were broadcast on tv and the most recent season had it's show length doubled to a full hour.

I'm with Joe and I really hope that this year Dean and Woodie create an exciting tv-worthy show. They will have to compromise some facet of their goals; but these guys are brilliant engineers and very familiar with trade-offs.

Dan