Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

While this might make sense initially, holonomic actually starts looking very bad after viewing the COFs for the wheels.

Yes, the transverse COF is very low, but the inline COF is less than half of it! This means a holonomic drive robot (with the COG in the middle) theoretically wouldn't move at all! In practice, it might, but not much.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

That could be a problem. In general PID controllers have always been a robust and great way to move your robot. The problem is that the ideal way to control the motors is with some type of ramp input meaning that the integrator may or may not work as exactly the same.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

is the coefficient of friction independent of surface area or not?

i think more wheels equals more friction

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

But the Fan is not providing traction, it's providing a weight force, making up for the lost 5/6 of weight

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

In simple physics terms friction is independant of the surface area.

In reality because we are on a textured surface it may not be.

If the wheels are the same as last years kit wheels the surface is a soft compound. With sufficient weight on each wheel the soft compound will conform the the bumpy surface producing more friction than a wheel riding on the top of the bumps.

The question then is what is then optimal load on a wheel to obtain the most friction. A simple experiment can be designed to determine the optimal loading and therefor the optimal number of wheels.

If allowed the vacuume design is possible. Many schools physics departments have a 4' diameter hovercraft where the lift is achieved with a battery powered leaf blower. The leaf blowers run well for 10 minutes on a charge and can easily support a 250 lb load. I believe the battery supplied has sufficient energy to power the leaf blower and drive motors and increase the normal force and friction. You would need a fully charged battery for each match.

Since we are simulating 1/6 gravity on the moon and there is no atmosphere on the moon I suspect a vacuume design wil not be allowed.

It is possible to get used to driving on a low friction surface. Those who are used to driving on ice and snow understand the limitations. Keep in mind that when driving a car on ice you are in the car and have a, seat of your pants, feeing of what is going. You do not have this sensor input at a remote driving station.

It is possible and easy through programming to limit how fast you can accelerate and turn. It takes some time to get used to, like the first time you slam on the brakes of a car with anti lock brakes.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

What if we did a air boat type drive train. where we take a floor fan gut the motor and replace it with a shaft and a belt drive to a few CIMS (or direct connect). Then our wheels would be attached to casters. To steer we would have directional flaps powered by servos on the back.

+: could defend the trailer if powerful enough, takes away some traction problem.

-: stopping could be an issue (but thats what brakes are for), and the power of the fan could not be powerful enough to move the robot.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Im with the fan idea for propulsion. Not sure if it's legal though

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

You want as little interaction between the wheels and floor as possible, although the fan is risky there are other ways to move your robot without interaction with the sourounding medium. As we all know a tank steer or skid steer is out of the question a 40lb flywheel spinning at a couple thosand rpm spun by the windsheild wiper motor on the horizontal axis should spin the robot on a dime just how NASA stabalizes their satelites in space it works on SW 2008

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

How would the fan not be legal? It could stay within size constraints, you would have to enclose it but that wouldn't be that hard if you use a premade fan, and you still use the wheels on the ground.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

But how would you move across the field? the flywheel would make you spin but the trailer would mess that up, plus to put in a fly wheel would take up a lot of space.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Can the battery power a large fan for 2:15' straight???

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

someone found a fan thats legal by FIRST regulations

http://www.modelflight.com.au/rc_mod..._micro_fan.htm

i dont know the calculations to find out how long the battery could power it though

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

don't know might not but you only use the fan as the major draw of power off the battery i don't see why not. think about it using 4 CIMS to move a robot on wheels with high friction/wieght and a pnuematic system drained most of our battery last year. but if we where to use only the fan it would be 1-4 CIMs moving at most a 5 pound fan (im being very heavy) in a circle constantly, in my opion would not drain the battery that much.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

im not using any rules as backing here but from what i know as long as the fan is enclosed (no sharp/dangous appendages) and you use CIMs to power it not the motor that came with the fan (illegal motor) the fan would be legal

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

I would guess this is roughly the setup you had in mind with wheels:

| |
_ _

| |
(with possibly more series of sideways and forward-facing wheels)
Vertical wheels are forward facing, horizontal are sideways facing, in case people don't know.

And that wouldn't exactly be difficult to program, but the operators would have to have incredible coordination, since assuming you're driving in tank mode it would require three joysticks (two for each set of wheels, plus one more to operate the side wheels.) Add more motors if you want additional sets of wheels, unless you can put three wheels on one motor...

Either that or have the side wheels spin in conjunction to the outputs of the joysticks (i.e. if left is spinning full forward and right is spinning full backward, the wheels will turn in the direction that will provide the most traction. I'd have to run a simulation to determine exactly which would be the best way, whether you want more turning force, causing the trailer to possibly fishtail, or less to stabilize it.)
Again, not apparently difficult to program.

edit: (with random concerns I think of)
The only thing I could see right now is collisions of of the chains (if they're used to provide the moving force for the wheels) from the forward/sideways wheels. Seems it could be remedied by using varying radii with the grabbers on the wheels (spaced the name of them) that move the chain.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

The 200 pounds of force comes from the fact that it is a vacuum creating pressure underneath the robot so in a 10x10 area with 1 psi (pound per square inch) you would have 100 pounds of force. You would not have nearly the same force from simply the fan on the side.

However we calculated that it would only take 7 pounds of force applied from the side to start a robot moving sliding sooo...

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Did anyone else see the size of that fan? Do you really think that would be worth buying 30 of those for a little bit more propulsion? Personally, I think its a waste of time, and how can we have tank treads if the rules state: "The ROVER WHEELS must be used in a “normal” orientation (i.e. with the tread of the wheel in contact with the ground, with the axis of rotation parallel to the ground and penetrating the wheel hub). No other forms of traction devices (wheels, tracks, legs, or other devices intended to provide traction) are permitted."

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Unless I'm off my rocker, 200g of thrust means a little less than a half-pound of thrust? You'd need something like 14 of them to be roughly equivalent to the amount of force produced by frictional interaction from wheels.

I made that approximation based off a calculation of maximum frictional force by multiplying the weight (120lb.) by the *kinetic* coefficient of friction (.05 from the first manual), yielding a maximum force of 6lbs. to accelerate the robot. So, that's a lot of fans. Running all of them at their maximum of around 300 Watts each, that accounts for 4200 watts, and, I could be wrong, but I believe that would mean it would discharge one of the 12v 18Ah batteries in around 3 minutes.

So, that particular fan sounds pretty in-efficient to me. I would suggest looking for one with a much larger prop. Larger, slow moving props tend to have a higher efficiency (not to mention they tend to be a little safer). A larger prop would also mean more thrust, and fewer fans. Knock the number of fans needed down to 4 or so, and it would be manageable I think.

I'm still intrigued by the possibility of a fan-propelled bot. I think it would be quite spectacular to watch in action.

*EDIT*
This is all completely without regard to the legality of the fan and motor, merely assessing the viability of the particular product.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

I think they were referring to what is called "tank drive" which you can think of like driving a bulldozer, only without the tracks, just the wheels. The wheels on one side would operate together independently from the other side.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Interesting that game team used "traction" with respect to wheels etc, and didn't use the word "propulsion", thus maybe leaving a fan solution open to possibility. Hmm

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

I think one thing that will be incredibly important is weight distribution, if you have more weight on one side your robot it going to be spinning in circles since that side will have more traction.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

No. Sorry, but someone was talking about putting treads on their bot. Just clarifying that.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Yeah I saw that somewhere...

People need to learn to use proper terms though please. There's listings on here about all different common terms used in FIRST and on CD, just search them people.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

ahh, I apologize, in my haste reading through the threads I must have mis-read something :rolleyes:

In that, I would most definitely agree with you :)

Has anyone thought about creating a way to modify your center of gravity/weight distribution on the wheels, in order to aid in traction control? Would require a mass on board able to be moved in some direction or another. Might not be likely to have a light enough bot in most cases for it to be feasible. I wonder to what extent something like that would be able to help though? Hmm... possibilities...

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Our team was considering this, but then decided to go with automative-type traction control just on the basis of it being a proven technology

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

a problem i have in general with all drive trains that allow u to turn suddenly like crab drive, swerve drive, and holonomic especally. with the all ready low traction of the feild a quick turn would send your robot flying down the feild out of control. then if you solved the traction problem your trailer would jack knife and take you out. also for the holonomic drive this drive in a high friction envrioment had no pushing power. so this year the holonomic drives biggest strength, its mobility, is gone. also the drive itself is made to have no pushing power and in my opion this year the robot with the most pushing power is king not the one with the most traction.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

So today i went with my mom to buy a sheet of the flooring material. As has been stated before, it was $30 for a 4'x8'x.125" sheet, of a material that seemed extremely close to the look and feel of what people have already described. As soon as we got home, i took one of the new wheels and slid it on the flooring. At first, when we first opened the kit, i took a wheel and slid it on a table nearby, remarking at how there was no traction with the table surface. Well, compared to the actual flooring, that table would be much better. There is soooo little friction between the wheels and the flooring. i am actually quite scared by how little traction we are going to be working with. earlier someone was talking about these wheels being similar to those of previous years, in that they might deform a little to adjust to the uneven surface of the floor. That is not going to happen, as these wheels are very hard plastic, which will not be changing it's shape ever.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Not an expert on this but I think you should be limited to using 4 wheels. If not
then you could use 8 - 16 whatever - a wheels arms race.

If everyone has to work with four wheels the mental arms race has to be where the competition goes.

I think with the mass of the trailer behind you - best movement strategy is based more on sailing/sledding/bumper cars then driving on carpet.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Adding more wheels does not increase traction. The maximum force you can apply to the floor is determined by the coefficient of friction and the normal force. Surface area has no influence.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Adding more wheels would probably make little difference in driving, and would probably actually make it harder to turn (if you use skid turning, and with that many wheels, you probably will). Also, in theory adding wheels won't really help since as long as you're using the same wheels (you will be), you're just spreading out your normal force while still having the same coefficient of friction (.06).

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

I am not a physics expert either, but do have one thing that might be useful.
People are using the terms traction and friction almost interchangeably, which may lead to misconceptions. Friction (F=uN) is a fairly simplistic empirical model that does not depend on surface area. Traction, on the other hand, actually does depend on surface area. Using a larger surface area while leaving other factors constants results in increased traction. For evidence, think of rubbing two small pieces of sandpaper together versus two larger pieces, or wide drag racing tires.

I can't find a whole lot of information on traction, however, so if anyone knows more and would like to correct me, I would appreciate it.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

I stopped reading the thread at page, two it's nearing bed time for me. But I found the solution for those having a hard time TURNING IN PLACE with Skid Steer. Turning in place in difficult enough, but remember the TRAILOR. Not only do you have to pull the wheels sideways, but you have to pull the skid sideways. Trick for the drivers would be to drive forward and then turn. Initiate a drift and then use that to slide. The turns would be wider, but more controlled. It would take practice though.

Example of what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5aWAW2hea4

But another proble I see happening is a few teams that have no practice or experience driving with no traction will go straight forward and before even attempting to stop, they will try to stop and either lock of the wheels or put them in reverse. You will stop like this at some point, but I find it likely that the robot will veer off to one side. These are things I've experienced in trying to drift RWD RC cars with PVC Tires. It's different with Skid Steer, but the lack of traction idea is similar.

Are you sure?
I'm more involved in 1:1 cars and racing, and the general idea is that wider tire = more traction. Same reasoning behind the Bugatti Veyron's 16" wide rear tires.

But to me it would seem that having two/three wheels directly next to each other would make turning more difficult, as the mu is greater sideways than forward. And this is from my observed experience in the FLL....

Another thing I noticed today is that the Rover Wheels aren't true. What I mean by this is that they're completely uneven all the way around. Try rolling one forward, it will fall over to one side real quick. I'm sure mounting them normally and giving them a good once over on a good surface (concrete?) will level it out nice, and prove more surface area. But acording to the guy in quotes, this would be useless?

-----------

Me and my AP Physics teacher had brief discussion on using fans or duct fans (I would prefer the later for a few other reasons) to aid in propulsion. You could possibly add another 10N for acceleration, but you also forget you can possibly use this to steer the robot. Mount a few small duct fans here and there that generate say 3N each, and you can help correct a drift or even slow down in a straight line....

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

We got a 4 wheeler running on the game floor today with the wheels.

Seemed to be controlable enough. We could turn it when it weighed 30 lbs. and when it weighed 120~160 lbs. it turned even better.

We'll have to see how it goes with the trailer.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

that's cool to hear. how is it set up? tank-drive?

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Ok weve spent all of our meeting today discussing the "best" type of drivetrain...we narrowed it down to a tank style and a car steering with back-wheel drive...any thoughts?

Ive read the thread and i really cant see much discussion on the drive trains but rather on increassing friction...my advice embrace the challenge instead of trying to move around it

PS-Wat is the aprox weight of the trailer rules dont specify?

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

I replaced the wheels on a 30-40ish lb kitbot today that was previously made with the new kitbot wheels, and tried it out on the "regolith" surface, and so far....its not looking so well. The bot can be kicked around and will slide sideways really easily. Of course, there are many different factors going into play, especially the low mass.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

"Long" drive configuration with a wheel at each corner. Normal tank-steering.

Geared for around 8 fps.

Weight makes a HUGE difference.

Also realize that other bots won't be able to push you as hard as you can kick.

Crashes are a different story.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Do you give any hints to people who have no experince with driving in the snow oricy conditions

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

I live in the land of ice and snow, and tips for driving in these conditions are relatively self-explanatory, governed by this rule:

If you lose static friction, you lose control.

Driving a *car* in such conditions means that you:
A. Go easy on the accelerator to avoid slipping.
B. Go easy on the brake, for the same reason.
C. Turn gradually, slowing down much more than you normally would.
D. If you start to skid, turn into the direction of the skid to allow your wheels a chance to catch again.

Now, how this applies to different drive train configurations in Lunacy is another matter!

Patrick

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Thanks for the tips Patrick. Don't get too much of that weather down here in Texas.

Ben

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

No worries.

On another note, I think it would be a huge mistake to try to design a robot that is going to maintain traction all the time -- because it won't, especially when it gets hit by high-speed *other* robots. It would be much better to *know* that you are going to slide, and then try to figure out how you can use this to your advantage in controlling your bot. Driver practice will be paramount.

Someone suggested finding a video game (I think it was MarioKart(?), although I am sure there are others) that involve driving on slippery surfaces, just to get used to the general idea of how things handle.

Patrick

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

HA, basing how a robot drives off a video game! That is new, but an awesome idea! :)

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

You could easily go too far with that idea, methinks, but it's not a bad way to get those of you who reside in warmer climates more accustomed to this kind of driving.

Patrick

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Your Normal Force is a set number, however much your robot mass. That is divided by the surface area that is touching the ground "Theoretically" (It actually depends on Weight Distribution too). The Mass that is supported by each wheel can actually be measured by load cells (And then divide by the surface touching the surface area making contact with the ground to find pounds per square inch.)

Adding or subtracting wheels (if all are powered) doesn't actually make the difference in total, It changes the pounds per square inch of each wheel but not the traction because your total mass is still the same and the friction is still the same.


However if all wheels are not powered then you lose traction because whenever you try to drive not all of your mass is being used to effect friction.

SO more wheels doesn't really help except for the stability of the robots. you won't gain more traction from more wheels.

The hieght of the trailer (the posts around the outside) goes linearly from 42 to 34 inches, I am not sure if that is from the floor or the base of the trailer.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Use springs. ;)

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

i still see alot of constrained thinking about the drive train,Thinking outside the box has helped us the most.
Also, USB Joystick, not last years joystick.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

it is because "whats in motion tends to stay in motion" physics 101

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Mario cart, SHERBET LAND!

The biggest tip to people not used to icy condition, is Don't break traction, accelerate slower than you think you need to, because if you try to accelerate too fast you will spin and lose traction, causing you to have to slow down your wheels to recover. essentially making you accelerate slower.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Just a small note from me...

I believe that one has to think of this game more in terms of thrust vectoring rather than driving.

These robots will behave much more like spacecraft than they will cars.

In your brainstorming... think about applying force in the direction you want the robot to change its acceleration.

Earlier another post showed that the maximum acceleration (assuming a 120 pound robot and .o6 coefficient of friction) that could be achieved is around .588 m/s2...

Apply that thrust in the direction you want to change the robots acceleration.

This would seem to require that powered wheels (and all wheels need to be powered to get maximum traction) are capable of changing their vectors in 360 degrees. This is because the only thrust that the robot is capable of is from these wheels...

The only other thrust would come from those same wheels turned sideways..and that only would be when the robot is moving and it would be in the negative direction to the motion. This would bring the higher transverse coefficient of friction into play and could be a very good way to de-cellerate the robot. It could conceivably de-cellarate the robot with nearly twice the magnitude as the powered wheels...

just something to think about.

don't think driving... think piloting...and think piloting of a space craft..

thanks

good luck at the competition!!!
May the Net Force be with you!!!

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

hi think slow for now we can predict all we want but the real test is going 2 come at regional, the ones that drive the best will do the best in my opinion. my idea learn fast.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

How to drive on the new arena surface? Well, stated in the rules, ALL robots have the exact same wheels. They cannot be modified. So I guess to drive well, you need a good driver, a good robot design, and some luck.

However, I heard that having less wheels would be better. I think mabye it's becuse there's less traction or something like that...

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Were the wheels maintaining a 'static' state? or were they spinning a lot?

Hehe, sorry for asking so many questions. I'm interested in the first-hand experience. My team hasn't gotten their hands on the regolith flooring yet, and are considering a 4-wheel tank drive. we're considering a wide frontal orientation for the wheels though. so the front of the bot would be the longest side. we'll see if this helps improve turning ability. I think we're going to be up for a LOT of testing (trial and error) this year. haha.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

We have a tank drive that we use each year for prototyping. Please take a look at the video on the link below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Rl8mcTpjw

This is just last year's code running two CIMs per toughbox. Just a little video taste....

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Kiwi doesnt quite work, because the coefficient of friction when moving laterally is far greater than that of when the wheel is moving normally.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

What looks like could be a problem with that is the trailer is going to jacknife and that could make a huge diference

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

although my team has already bought some of the flooring, we have yet to test it out. hopefully soon we will be able to retrofit an old robot to make use of the new wheels. i think that practice is really going to make a difference this year.

on a separate note, ive read a lot of posts about driving this year, but no one yet (as i have seen) has brought this up:

from rule regarding wheels (i dont remember the number)
...a “normal” orientation (i.e. with the tread of the wheel in contact with the ground, with the axis of rotation parallel to the ground and penetrating the wheel hub)...

if you ask me, we dont have to have the wheels spinning in a circular orbit. by building a hub that allows the rotation of the wheel to be offset from the center, a different driving stlye would result. im not sure if this would help at all, or be legal for that matter, it just seemed interesting.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

It didn't drive so well once we got the trailer going today :(

Our driver did develop a clever method of jack-knifing the bot back and forth to turn around. Simply tank steering was impossible with the trailer...

We're looking into the wide config also... Let me know how it goes for you.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

<R18> part b
The Trailer Hitch must be rigidly attached to a fixed location on the ROBOT, with the long dimension of the Trailer Hitch horizontal and the opening of the C-channel facing away from the ROBOT. The horizontal center line of the Trailer Hitch must be 2-13/16 inches above
the floor.

this may inhibit wide robots but im not sure?

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Team 1696 "driving" last year's bot with new wheels on FRP - ufduh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc_L3Cbz5nQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbG5Ft72z9I

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

How's the acceleration and breaking on it?

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Wow there are a lot of ideas being thrown out here. I have to see in all of them games I have seen for FRC this is definitely something new. As for driving on this new surface it seems hard.

JUst wondering wouldn't the drifting ideas and driving on ice ideas kind of be hindered from the trailer a bit?

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Does anyone have any idea why WildStangs removed their driving video from youtube?

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Probably one of their team members put it up without asking the team and then the rest of the team asked that member to remove it.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

I'd be interested in where this rule is. <R06> says "The ROVER WHEELS must be used in a “normal” orientation (i.e. with the tread of the wheel in contact with the ground, with the axis of rotation parallel to the ground and penetrating the wheel hub). The ground being a plane, this seems to suggest that the wheels may be angled. Maybe?

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

would car steering be a bad idea?

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Kind of like bouncing on the bumper of a truck stuck in mud? Interesting idea.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

WildStangs removed the vid. because they are not willing to share their results of the test.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

And this knowledge is proven/justified how...? Baseless assumptions aren't good. I'm sure there was a good reason for them to remove it. Whatever it is, it's pointless to speculate until we're told.

That being said: Teams that think in the boxes that we've gotten used to over the last few years WILL fail. I'm willing to bet on it. A standard skid-steer robot will be weighed down and messed up by the trailer. Only robots with specifically designed steering and control mechanisms will be able to move around with enough speed and control to make themselves useful on a strong, competitive level. Just ask anyone who's driven up here in the north about how to drive on Ice, and you might learn some good tips on how to control your bot.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

The wheels can not be angled as you are talking about.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

As we have found out in tests, it is better to go to full power right away thatn try to slowly speed things up, since kenitic and static friction are so close to each other that it makes no diffrence but it is easier for the drivers to control.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Hmm, your tests seem to disagree with ours...

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

The axle going through the wheel can point north, south, east or west, or any spot in between the cardinal directions. The axle cannot point at an up or down angle.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

WHEELS WHEELS AND MORE WHEELS. Not in line wheels but hub to hub to hub wheels. like a 16 to 20 wheel drive. all wheels drive all wheels have friction. You need as much surface on the ground as you can to get more friction. ie you have a car with the right inflation on all the tires you get the best gas per mile.
they always tell you to check you tire pressure. now let out 10 lbs what happens to you gas mileage (it goes down right) you did not change the weight of the car you just changed how much surface hit the ground which in turned gave you more friction. and that is what you need more surface to hit the ground. the weigh divided over the wheels don't matter the bot still stays the same weight

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

Simply put, this is incorrect. The friction force is equal to the normal force times the coefficient of friction. This has already been discussed numerous times. Increasing surface area on an ideal surface will never increase the friction.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

We found out a few interesting things today. we mounted 4 of the rover wheels on the back of our 2008 lowered center 6wd and drove it on the FRP. the weight is biased pretty far back so the front never touched down. right away you could push it around really easy like they did at the kickoff. after wearing out a few batteries driving around, the wheels got a a significant amount more traction. we then put a small scale in front of the front bumper and told the driver to push as hard as he could without spinning. it pushed with about 35 lbs of force until the wheels broke loose, when the scale went down to about 19 lbs.
This type of drivetrain (long 6wd, lowered center) drives like a smaller version of a wide robot as long as it stays on the rear 4 wheels turning was pretty easy but we haven't hooked up a trailer yet.

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

our team had an awesome idea!!!!!! we are gunna use a high speed fan to create traction because the fan will wanna stick to the regolith when air is being sucked in haha:D

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

1 more thing i forgot have an awesome 2009 and good luck:yikes:

Re: How can we drive on this new floor?
 

This has been deemed illegal by the GDC. Any method of increasing traction is illegal this year, which would include attempts at increasing your normal force.