Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Sorry Jim, I disagree. It just confuses spectators when a high score alliance gets punished for excelling at the task (scoring points) for which they are created & cheered on to achieve. Sure, some sports use a handicap system to "even the playing field", but none I can think of create a handicap for team players mid-tournament.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Well they'll probably have beaten their previous opposing alliance so badly they've lost their super cells as well, so you'd be on equal footing ;)

In all seriousness it seems like a ridiculous rule to me. Everyone should always play their best and hardest. This encourages not doing your best. It's also just a politically correct move on FIRST's part. They're saying "we know we will have teams who will kick the snot out of everyone they play, so we'll try to penalize them in an attempt to make them win, but just less convincingly so". This doesn't actually help the weaker alliance, it's just a pity rule.

It seems even more ridiculous if you penalize an alliance than won 10-0, or something of that nature. As mentioned before there should be some minimum point threshold before this rule is in effect.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Cory I agree with the threshold rule. Kinda like little league baseball there is a ten run rule. Maybe there should be limit. How would you decide it, after week 1 or before?

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Hopefully before. I would like to play without this crazy rule, as we only attend one regional per year.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

The only time i see this rule working is during finals when the same teams are against each other... other then that with everything being "Random" during qualifications i don't think that they can really penalize you because of a alliance partner you didn't have in your previous match.

apart from that there really are only 2-3 penalties this year:
~Intently wedging or flipping and opponent (they disable you i think)
~throwing the Super Cell before the last 20 seconds of match(20 points off)
~and then this rule which would only allow you to score 2 points per ball in match if you do really well in previous match

I think this rule will be the deciding factor in a lot/all of the finals

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

This rule also seems like a nightmare for Field Reset Crews to me. Every year those crews do the same thing match after match, and now this year they have to consider where to put every empty cell every match? Coupled with an entirely new control system, we could be seeing 10 minutes between matches on a regular basis...

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Maybe our team has gone hopelessly awry in our strategy...

But do any of you honestly think any team will be able to score more than 2 super cells!??

First you have to transport them one-by-one to your alliance station. Considering the playing surface and the ridiculous interfaces between bots and HP's this will likely take all of 1.5 mins...

Then... In the last 20 seconds you have to try and score them into a moving target, from a single position (which is likely the furthest away from your opponents).

If there are bots that do this consistently... I'll be impressed...

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Until the robonauts 3 week video last year, i didn't think anyone was going to be reliably hurdling via a shooter. If you can think of it, some team will do it.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

No idea if this was the intention, but I imagine it could be.

Limited resources, and efficient use of them. If you are truly going to the moon, would it be wise to use 120 Watts do something 20 can? If you're opponents score 19 balls, you only need 20 to win.

Just playing devil's advocate.

Now.......... On the other hand, this isn't actually going to the moon, this is a FIRST game and that reasoning no longer applies to my emotional response.

But, what's odd to me, is I'm not upset about this rule. Not one bit. High Scoring teams will probably have good scouts, and will probably know when they are having hard and easy matches. They should be able to handle not dominating several times over in a single match if they want a super cell in the next.

If a team is consistently losing super cells match after match, they shouldn't be complaining one bit; they're clearly winning matches over and over, and easily at that.

As for my team, I think we'll just score.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

who says the payload specialists can't somehow get the supercells to a robot, who can score them much easier.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

The more I think about it the more I think this thread by the end of the season will be much ado about nothing. I think <G14> is going to have the opposite effect on top level teams and they will just pound everyone into mush so that they don't even have to worry about the Super Cells effecting them.
I bet they don't even get scored at more than 10% for a whole regional. And mean were assuming that teams are actually going to be able to score them once they have them. I don't think that's going to be as easy as people think. You only get a 20 second window shooting over a barrier into a small moving target. Unless teams are able to wrangle a clutch shooter from their high school basketball teams (good luck with that) you're probably not going to get someone all that skilled and once there in play aren't they available for anyone to use?
After week 2 this will be a non issue.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

From my interpretation, the rule makes most sense for the elimination matches. That way you have your alliance which doesn't change. To have this rule in qualifying is madness.:confused:

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

But that's the way the rule is written.

Actually there are 27 penalties this year. The only good thing is that most of them are arcane and won't be seen. Certainly not repeated time and time again like the interfering with hurdling penalty last year.

But you will see a whole lot of double penalties for entering the Super Cell too early. OCCRA had a similar money-ball rule this season, and even in the last event prior to the championship teams were still doing it. (I wasn't at the championship; maybe it happened there too.) A -20 point swing that late in the game will be huge, especially in regards to <G14>. An alliance that was losing 8-16 may suddenly see itself winning 8-1 and incur the 3x penalty for their next match.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Very true, there would be 3 alliance's, in three matches being penalized for 1 teams actions

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

With that I'm going to have to agree with Muktar Ali

It is going to be madness to have this rule in qualification matches

[quote=GaryVoshol;792174]Actually there are 27 penalties this year. The only good thing is that most of them are arcane and won't be seen. Certainly not repeated time and time again like the interfering with hurdling penalty last year.[quote]


I can agree with you also that allowing the supercell to enter that game before the last 20 seconds will be that major rule this year that also decides the game, like interfering with a hurdle and crossing a line plane in the opposite direction last year.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Yeah, who said you can't do that? ;)

Needless to say, that really doesn't make it THAT much easier though. Its still a fairly ridiculous task to complete in >20 seconds.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Here's my proposed modification of G14, which I think the fairest way to keep this rule in effect:

- You beat your opponent by 2x and with at least 15 points difference (e.g. greater than 30-15 win),
- Or you beat them by at least 3x and also with at least 20 points difference (e.g. greater than 30-10 win).

Or you can word the above as saying the 2x and 3x clauses only take effect if the winning score is greater than or equal to 30 points.

Any winning score of less than thirty points shouldn't be a victim of this rule, as those teams certainly aren't powerhouse teams. They were just a victim of having a single ball count so much higher towards their score relative-wise than a much higher scoring match.

Because as the rule stands now, many of the 12-2 or 16-8 style matches we see in week one and two regionals (where the difference is only a few balls) will be made victims of this rule, stinting further progress towards high scores. But under the proposed modification, low-scoring matches from both alliances won't get penalized, but the uber-high scoring matches (the ones typically called shutouts) would still be affected by the rule.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Has anyone asked about this rule in the Q&A? I myself, don't have a team sign-on, so I can't.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

I don't see anything unclear about it. What would you ask?

"We don't like <G14>. Can you delete it?" :cool:

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

What happens in a 2-0 game?
What happens in a 4-2 game where the only way to win is to double the other alliance's score?
Is this enacted before or after penalties?
Does this apply to no-show teams?

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

I would ask one thing: What happens when (not if) a team loses x-0, where x >= 1? Is this 2x, 3x, or <G14> does not apply?

I understand <G14>. The effects will be--minimal, at best, I think. I can only think of two groups of teams that will really be affected other than by their alliance partners. The one thing I don't understand is why it's in the rulebook. I'm sure there is a reason, but I don't know what that reason is.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

I don't have time to look through this thread to see if it has been posted already, but say for example that before penalties that your alliance has scored 50 and the opposing alliance has scored 40. However, for some reason, a payload specialist on the opposing alliance had hurled a super cell before the 20 second warning (assume unintentionally), incurring a double penalty. Your alliance recieves zero penalties. The final score is 50-20. According to the current wording of <G14> in your next match you lose one empty or super cell because the other alliance broke some rule and incurred a penalty. At the very least <G14> should use the unpenalized score and take low score matches into account since they will undoubtedly occur although probably not very much. Also, in the case of a 4-2 score, if you look at <G14> it says:
According to this wording, 4-2 wouldn't trigger <G14>.

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

If a team wins 5 to 0, they aren't scoring super cells anyway, so loss of future use is not much of a penalty.

G14 provides just more of the same motivations as Ranking point system:
Winners: score for opponent to boost your RP, and avoid G14 losses
Losers: If you are losing, try to lose badly to avoid giving high RP.
Losers: If you are clearly outmatched, you can always create infinite penaties at the last second to zero out your opponent RP, and cause G14.

If it only applies during Eliminations only, then RP doesn't matter and G14 is just another long-term strategy component.

If it G14 applies during qualifying, then the strategy gets too deep for me; do you check if your opponents now are your future allies before using penalties to aid them in G14?

Re: <G14> Shenanigans?
 

Ranking Points are determined by the losing alliance's unpenalized score. That said, you still could invoke <G14>, but I'd bet your alliance partners would not be too happy with you. :rolleyes: