Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Is it just me or is there a general lack of rules regarding removing game pieces from trailers?

OK, I know the robot can't extend beyond the 28x38x50 size, so it's hard to make a boom to reach out and remove balls from your own traler, or from a team mate's... but if your robot was built smaller, eg: 28x24 it's possible that you could reach out 14" into a team-mate's tralier and remove their balls (so to speak).

Can't see where the rules prevent this.???

Likewise, any reason why your robot can't reach back and sheild your own trailer or flick balls out when they get deposited?

What have I missed?

Phil.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Yeah, I was thinking/looking at the same thing. One thing that makes it very hard to block/descore from your own trailer is the trailer needs to behind the short side (28). So, since the trailer is 7 inches from your robot and assuming you need atleast 3 inches to descore, I think it would be very hard to build a robot in at the very most 18 inches.

Descoring from other's trailer's may be more plausable, but unless done with insanly skill, two robots will have to be stopped, which would allow for two very easy targets.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

the bold part might include alliance bots too, I might be mistaken

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Whew! I was wondering when this thread would start ... and I didn't have the gumption to start it myself ... but you've let the cat outta' the bag.

The only relevent rule I could find is: G32 Robot-to-Robot Interaction

It says that "contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable" which could rule out trying to stick an arm into somebody else's trailer (but not necessarilty your own trailer)

It's not really spelled out for us yet, but I don't think they want us digging around in each others trailers, trying to eject balls.

Perhaps the size envelope limitations are enough to ensure that we don't attempt that strategy. ... but I felt really good there for a while this morning thinking that my camera could detect a SUPER CELL in my trailer and toss it OUT as the timer reaches zero.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I found where it says that:
Reaching into another trailer violates the out of bumper rule and might be considered attaching or climbing onto a trailer

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

ok, and what about blocking the 'entrance' to your own trailer?

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

That's prbly not allowed cause if you were to cover it, you would have to use your robot to do that, cause you can't build a cover on top of it, and if your robot does cover it, that violates the out of the bumper zone rule.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

At all times the robot MUST fit in the 28" wide x 38" long x 60" high envelope

contact outside of the prescribed BUMPER zone is prohibited.

these two rules rule out

1) covering the trailer, or blocking the entrance
2) reaching into a trailer and removing rocks


It also means we cannot 'reach' over and drop rocks into a trailer
but we can 'shoot' them, similiar to the 2006 Aim-High game.


This game looks a lot like Aim-High, but with much shorter shooting distances.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Keep in mind that the robot must not exceed the 28"x38"x60" size restrictions at any time during the match.

It looks like the trailer tongue will stick out 4" from the trailer, and that the trailer is 28" edge to edge. So to meaningfully grasp a ball and extract it from your own trailer, you might need to reach out about 18-20" (I'm sure this can be optimized down a bit with careful design) That leaves about 20" (of the 38") to build your robot.

So, it could be done. It would probably be easier to descore them from one of your alliance member's trailers, however, as you wouldn't need to account for the trailer hitch.

I would place 50-50 odds on there being a "no descoring" rule clarification on the Q&A forum this week.... but only 50-50 as the GDC may feel that the size limitations are already sufficient disincentive for this strategy.

Jason

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

According to drawing GE-09009a, the tongue will protrude about ten inches from the trailer.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

So basically, trailer + tongue will be equal to 38 inches total. It's possible (but difficult) to grab a ball out of your own trailer, provided they've rolled around to the back. It's pretty much impossible to block your trailer from being scored in.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the bumper zone is your robot's bumpers, and not the trailer's bumpers, but if there is something that I didn't catch, go ahead and correct me.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I think even if somebody figures out how to eject balls from a trailer, they will still be counted. I say this because, in the rules it says if a trailer tips over and the balls are lost, however many there were in there at that time, before it tipped, are still scored.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Sorry i'm on hold with Walmart trying to get more of those orbit balls haha...
little bored so i have to add...
What if you were to, say, direct a current of air at your trailer?

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I have to ask, So your saying that we can't "reach" (ie outside of size limits), Right?

Or are u saying a "dumptruck" type design, even provided it fits while "dumping" would be out because of possible contact?

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

You can't reach outside your bumper zone but if you dumped it, and were extremely close to the opponent bot, I think, that's allowable, it's in the animation so why not :D

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

you flat out cannot go outside the defined envelope.

but if you had a little ball gun, like in aim-high, you could toss them over to the trailer, or if you had a big gun you could shoot them across the room.

if you had a little gun on the top that could spit them into the trailer in front of you, or into the corner pocket.

but you definitely cannot reach outside of the limit

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I think that any discussion of de-scoring is pretty moot, from a logistics perspective.
Even if you can de-score balls in your own trailer, there are still two other trailers on your alliance that the opposing alliance is now focusing on because they know you'll try to de-score their pieces. So, now your de-scoring is for nothing.
Secondly, the energy and time you spend de-scoring pieces could be much more efficiently and effectively in legally scoring pieces as the game is designed...which seems much more graciously professional to me.

Overall, the gain of de-scoring opposing pieces is negligible compared to the penalty risk for outside of bumper zone contact as well as the loss of time you could be using to score your own moon rocks.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Correct me if Im wrong, but is it possible to build a forklift-ish thing on the back side of a slightly smaller robot? this pronged arm could be placed at the base of the trailer at the beggining or directly after, the beginning of the game. Then in the final seconds, you could flip the arm up and launch any rocks out of the trailer. It would not be attaching to the trailer, if it does not touch the sprockets of the trailer.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

The way I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the rules state that you cannot touch another ROBOT. The rules also seem to acknowledge that the trailer is NOT part of the ROBOT by using phrases such as "The ROBOT and the TRAILER." So I believe that if you can somehow create a small enough ROBOT, with an appendage that fits inside the given space, you can touch other teams' trailers without grabbing or climbing the trailer and still be legal.
I also believe that this applies to your own trailer, if you can still fit into the space requirements.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I said this in another thread, but I'm going to guess that descoring and goal blocking will be legal. You can reach outside your own bumpers, if you stay inside the 28x38x60 box. You can touch other trailers. There is no mention of descoring or blocking. There is no support for extrapolating from trailer tipping to descoring. The size requirements are going to be serious enough that they'll discourage a large number of teams, if not all teams.

To correct a few misconceptions I've seen here, as well:This is not true. The hitch only needs to be at the outer edge of your robot. You could put it on a corner if you wanted.There is no basis for this. The tipping rule is obviously to keep robots from tipping themselves over at the end of matches, descoring in a massive fashion and making it impossible to actually score.Efficiency and utility of a descoring strategy are arguable. But if a strategy is obviously within the letter and spirit of the rules, it makes no sense to talk about it being more or less GP. It's not a value that can apply to a legal strategy. It's like saying that building a robot to win the competition isn't GP. Please try to apply GP to situations where is makes some sense, as otherwise you're just diluting the meaning.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I don't know. The ability to descore one or more 15 point super-cells would be a HUGE advantage if it didn't automatically envoke a penalty. 1 SuperCell = 7+ regular pieces :)

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Well, even if you could get that one super cell, that would make possible entanglement and if there are two super cells in that trailer, it would become illegal for having possession of more than one cell.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Can you make a robot (for example 28"X28"X28") that can purposely tip over on it's side, to tip the trailer, in autonomous, but there are wheels on your side so you can still move while on your side. This would take a goal out of play and let you still move and possible play, if you stay within size limits.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I'm guessing that <G32> probably covers your own trailer. :(

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

<R06> The ROVER WHEELS msut be used in a "normal" orientation (i.e. with the tread of the wheel on contact with the ground, with the axis of rotation parallel to the ground and penetrating the wheel hub).

So, probably no.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

<G24> only applies to EMPTY CELLS, not SUPER CELLS. You may possess as many SUPER CELLS as you like, so this is not an obstacle to descoring.

Ditto Abra Cadabra on <G32> almost certainly covering tipping your own TRAILER. Also, <R18> specifies specific mounting of the Trailer Hitch. I imagine they'll soon modify this to specify that it must remain so mounted for the duration of the match, to further prevent such things, as well as teams leveraging the trailer weight with drop wheels.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Which rule says you can't reach outside your bumper zone? I've read the Game rules and the Robot rules a few times looking for this, but all I have found is rule <R11> saying that the robot must stay within 28x38x60 inches. Rule <G32> states that contact outside the bumper zone is illegal, but if the piece of the robot that extends outside the bumper zone (such as a dumping mechanism) does not make contact with another robot or trailer, wouldn't it still be legal, given the robot remains within the specified dimensions?

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

The rules exclude "intentional" entanglement. If I was attempting to rid a robot on my alliance of a Super Cell it would hardly be considered intentional entaglement.

Although it may be "implied" by the rules, I don't think I've ever seen an entanglement penalty being called on one robot when it "entangles" another robot from the same alliance, because it would never be INTENTIONAL.

Also, it should not be "assumed" that my robot would have to keep posession of multiple Supercells if I stripped several from one alliance member. I can envisage a simple upward flicking stick that could be used to dislodge playing pieces without ever POSESSING them.

Once again... I'm not trying the invent the tool yet, I'm just looking for rules that specifically exclude it. I can think of plenty of DUMB tools the would be foolish to use, the question is, should we bother trying to invent one that is cool AND legal.

It's too early in the game to be dismissing ideas just because you don't think they will work.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

The following under <G32>

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Hi Kevin,
I'm not sure I agree with your blanket statement that you can touch trailers. I agree that they can be touched in the bumper zone but <G32> seems pretty clear about any contact out side the bumper zone.

<G32> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - ...
...E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT.

Joshua

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I know that CONTACT outside the bumper zone is illegal (<G32>), but is it illegal for a robot that is smaller than the specified dimensions to extend outside its bumper zone during the match, but not touch any other robots?

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Yes. if you stay in 28"x38"x60"

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

As far as I'm aware you can't have anything outside your bumper limits at any given time?

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

From what I understand from one of the game rules, you cannot LIFT the trailer...also, its attached with a steel bar, so lifting is kinda already out of the question.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Still, that means compressing your robot into a smaller space than usual (unless your a team that built a tiny drive train in overdrive). The best way one could do this is some kind of tower, which might be topheavy. ultimately, This idea is extremely hard to pull off. it would take a stroke of genius for one topic in a forum to do this.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I was not saying that it was a good idea or that they should do it, I was just clarifying a rule. On the other hand I do not want that first sentence to make you not do it.

P.S. I would not put it past F.I.R.S.T.* to declare in the first update that we can expand from the starting position, putting us all back a few days in design.

*For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

I read through the rules and I didn't find anything that stated that robots must remain within their BUMPERS. There is a size limit, but my interpretation of the rules is that a smaller robot may extend slightly, but stay within the dimensions specified in <R11>, to score more easily. If someone can find a rule that limits a robot to stay within the bumper limits, I would like to know. I have read through the robot rules and the game rules at least 4 times and I have not found one.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Contact with what? Allied Robots, Allied Trailers, Opposing Robots, Opposing Trailers? The field? Sec. E does not really specify what it's talking about. Also, that still doesn't make it illegal, just dangerous. If the descoring robot is clearly taking measure to avoid illegal contact, they can't be forced into it by another robot for a penalty. I think it needs to be asked, at the very least.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

So from the 2 above quotes, my interpretation is, you can extend your robot out, as long as it's in the imaginary box, and does not interfere with other robots.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

The trailer is NOT the ROBOT. Whe have a whole section defining the ROBOT. The trailer is not included in that definition.

So "ROBOT to ROBOT" Interaction does not automatically include the Trailer. Just because the ROBOTS cannot touch outside the bumper zone does not automatically prohibit one ROBOT touching another Trailer.

Another example of this...All "Posession" rules apply to the ROBOT, but do not include the Trailer. eg: Your ROBOT cannot Possess two Empty Cells, but you could have 4 in your Trailer.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Yeah, and the BUMPER ZONE is as follows:

Two virtual horizontal planes, that are contained, which implies your trailer is part of the BUMPER ZONE, so you could potentially look at this as an opportunity to see this as you being able only to remove balls from your own trailer and no one else's, but whether it removes the points or not is still very confusing to me, anyone know? :confused:

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Exar,

By your extremely permissive interpretation, you cannot touch the following items when they are not between 1 and 7 inches from the floor:
-Field structures
-Moon rocks
-Empty cells
-Super cells

<G34> specifically addresses ROBOT-to-ROBOT interaction, right there in the name. TRAILERS are brought into the description as well as a seemingly separate issue. At worst you could assume that <G34> applies to all ROBOTS, aside from your own, and all TRAILERS, including your own. In which case, you would be correct that descoring would be much more difficult.

Phil and I are pointing out that Section E. doesn't seem to apply to TRAILERS as it is written, and thus it isn't a problem. We're certainly open to correction from the GDC, but that's the way it appears to us at the moment.

In a more general sense, I assume that if the GDC hasn't specifically forbidden something, they're probably allowing it. Especially as they seem to have considered other forms of descoring (tipping goals). I can't bring myself to believe they didn't consider whether teams might attempt descoring in this fashion.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but as I am seeing it. The robot is able to contact other robots legally because remember as they said at kickoff. The surface leaves room for contact, but I seriously doubt that someone is going to speed up across the floor and ram an alliance member to knock out moon rocks.

So far, there are no rules saying this or that about descoring, but I can be positive, they are probably very soon to come.

It seems to me like as of now, there is no rule against it...
The only problem is fitting the robot inside that imaginary box that it must fit into every single moment of the match which is what is being interpreted. Whatever happened to starting the match inside of the box and being able to extend as the match goes on???

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Blocking your own trailer should be legal if you could figure out how to be able to stay in your 28x38x50 dimensions. First didn't put any rule up against that... yet.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Please see my new thread on Robot-to-robot and Robot-to-Trailer contact. This thread was going far beyond descoring so I decided to create a new topic.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...690#post790690

Put Bumpers ALL over your robot :) theres my bumper zone haha...

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

And there is your illegal analyzation of the definition of your robot's bumper zone as well.
Good luck even getting onto the field past tech inspection Thursday. :rolleyes:

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

As long as they are inside the starting box and don't cause the robot to exceed the weight limit, I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed, other than having to see that LED. They are custom fabricated items.

Of course, you do have to keep the ones outside the official Bumper Zone inside the robot volume constraints. And the robot can't weigh more than the weight limit with them. The ones inside the official Bumper Zone are the only ones exempt from that...

On to the original topic:

I was surprised that it wasn't explicitly illegal. I would say that if you can do it within the design constraints, it's legal. It's difficult, but legal. Until a rule comes out against it, of course.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

Come on you guys gracious proffesionaism:mad:

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

No taking balls out of the trailers.

Re: Removing game pieces from Trailers
 

this idea is pretty much done :mad: