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-   -   Question on Lunacy!!! (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71059)

zant1234 03-01-2009 18:34
Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Hey my entire team is wondering about a certain rule. Is it allowed to take out a game piece from your or your alliance members' trailer? We couldn't find any rules against this and if we had the dimensions correct we could have a fork-lift in the front to raise the game pieces out of the trailers. Is this allowed?

ExarKun666 03-01-2009 18:47
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
No read the following:
Quote:
D. Contact with a tilted or tipped ROBOT outside the BUMPER ZONE (particularly by the
BUMPERS of the contacting ROBOT) will generally be considered incidental contact and
will not be penalized.
E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY.
The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly
egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT.
F. A ROBOT may not attach to and/or climb onto a ROBOT or TRAILER. Doing so will be
interpreted as an attempt to damage an opposing ROBOT, and will be penalized as
such.
So if you did get it form the other trailer you are reaching outside your bumper zone, and it might be considered attaching or climbing onto to the bot.

zant1234 03-01-2009 18:52
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExarKun666 (Post 789951)
No read the following:


So if you did get it form the other trailer you are reaching outside your bumper zone, and it might be considered attaching or climbing onto to the bot.
Ok thank you very much!:)

GaryVoshol 03-01-2009 19:13
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Don't worry about the attaching/climbing rule. Worry about staying inside the 28x38 inch footprint.

MiniNerd24 03-01-2009 19:21
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Question. According to those rules you can't attach or grapple the opponent or trailer... nor can you touch anywhere bu the bumpers... so can you lift them up using their bumpers or is that a form of grappling?

eNyoron 03-01-2009 19:29
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
What if you were to construct your robot in such a way that it can reach into the trailer while staying within the 28 by 38 bounds? For example, what if the robot was 28 by 14 and had a two foot extendable arm that knocked balls out of the trailer?

In this regard, the rules seem to be vague, since you stay within dimension constraints at all times and don't really "grapple" onto the trailer.

Kyle 03-01-2009 19:33
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eNyoron (Post 790041)
What if you were to construct your robot in such a way that it can reach into the trailer while staying within the 28 by 38 bounds? For example, what if the robot was 28 by 14 and had a two foot extendable arm that knocked balls out of the trailer?

In this regard, the rules seem to be vague, since you stay within dimension constraints at all times and don't really "grapple" onto the trailer.
De-scoring is never a good strategy in FIRST, try to steer your design towards ways to score and play the game with GP. Also before you commit to having a de-scoring game plan for your robot wait for the first few rule updates because usually de-scoring is something they cover quite early in the updates

GGCO 03-01-2009 19:34
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniNerd24 (Post 790023)
Question. According to those rules you can't attach or grapple the opponent or trailer... nor can you touch anywhere bu the bumpers... so can you lift them up using their bumpers or is that a form of grappling?
Someone will have to confirm this (ie quote the manual), but I know that my team was talking about this during our brainstorming session. The answer is no. I know that it say in the manual (idk where though..) that a robot cannot pick up a robot.

ExarKun666 03-01-2009 19:34
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniNerd24 (Post 790023)
Question. According to those rules you can't attach or grapple the opponent or trailer... nor can you touch anywhere bu the bumpers... so can you lift them up using their bumpers or is that a form of grappling?
Quote:
B. Contact within the BUMPER ZONE is generally acceptable.
C. If a portion of the BUMPER PERIMETER polygon is unprotected by BUMPERS, any
contact by another ROBOT within the unprotected region (including the vertical
projection of the unprotected region) will be considered incidental contact and will not be
penalized.
according to the above it shouldn't be a form of grappling

Quote:
Originally Posted by eNyoron (Post 790041)
What if you were to construct your robot in such a way that it can reach into the trailer while staying within the 28 by 38 bounds? For example, what if the robot was 28 by 14 and had a two foot extendable arm that knocked balls out of the trailer?

In this regard, the rules seem to be vague, since you stay within dimension constraints at all times and don't really "grapple" onto the trailer.
Well Yes but if you reach to the trailer, then you are going outside your bumper zone, the trailer's bumpers aren't considered apart of the robot's bumper zone so you would be violating:

Quote:
E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY.
The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly
egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT.

pfreivald 03-01-2009 19:35
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
If you cannot

A. extend past your maximum dimensions <R11>

AND

B. contact another robot or trailer outside the bumper zone,<G32,E>

how do you intend to remove the balls from a trailer (theirs or yours)?

Patrick

ExarKun666 03-01-2009 19:37
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniNerd24 (Post 790023)
Question. According to those rules you can't attach or grapple the opponent or trailer... nor can you touch anywhere bu the bumpers... so can you lift them up using their bumpers or is that a form of grappling?
Actually if you read farther down:

Quote:
<G33> ROBOT Entanglement – Entangled ROBOTS will be disabled if attempts to disengage are
causing damage or a dangerous situation. If it is determined that a ROBOT intentionally
entangles an opposing ROBOT, the offending ROBOT will be disqualified. If, due to loose
cables, hoses, cords, etc., a ROBOT unintentionally but routinely entangles another ROBOT
as a result of normal game interaction, the ROBOT may be disqualified. The TEAM will be
required to repair the entangling elements before the ROBOT will be permitted to participate
in subsequent MATCHES.
So be careful basically

ExarKun666 03-01-2009 19:40
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 790049)
If you cannot

A. extend past your maximum dimensions <R11>

AND

B. contact another robot or trailer outside the bumper zone,<G32,E>

how do you intend to remove the balls from a trailer (theirs or yours)?

Patrick
I don't think you can, or are supposed to do to the fact they say if a trailer is knocked over and the balls are nocked out then the points are still that teams.

sayso_411 03-01-2009 19:48
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Alright so long story short: unlike previous years you cannot go outside specified dimensions after the start of the game and trying to take the ball out of a trailer would probably be contact outside of the bumper zone

Eric O 03-01-2009 20:00
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 790049)
If you cannot

A. extend past your maximum dimensions <R11>

AND

B. contact another robot or trailer outside the bumper zone,<G32,E>

how do you intend to remove the balls from a trailer (theirs or yours)?

Patrick

Neither of these rules applies to the situation described. If the robot stays within the 28x38x60 box, and is able to pull out a scoring object I see it as legal. G32, E says nothing about the trailer.

ExarKun666 03-01-2009 20:09
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric O (Post 790101)
Neither of these rules applies to the situation described. If the robot stays within the 28x38x60 box, and is able to pull out a scoring object I see it as legal. G32, E says nothing about the trailer.
But it won't count as unscoring since tipping over the trailer does not unscore your points

Eric O 03-01-2009 20:26
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExarKun666 (Post 790114)
But it won't count as unscoring since tipping over the trailer does not unscore your points
I am not sure I understand your argument. Are you agreeing with me or not? I said it is legal, not illegal. As far as I can see there is no penalty for de-scoring, scores are counted at the end of the match (G07). Since the trailer is not tipped I am saying that this move is not penalized and is beneficial to the team from a points perspective.

Electricia 1599 03-01-2009 20:41
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Here is another question: I know you cant touch anything but the bumper on other robots but could you touch your robots connected trailer?

Kevin Sevcik 03-01-2009 20:47
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
I'm with Eric O on this one. G32, E doesn't mention trailers, so contacting trailers outside the bumper zone should be legal, and you can extend outside your bumper zone as long as you stay in a 28x38x60 box. I think a descoring robot is legal, if difficult to pull off.

As to points still counting in a tipped trailer... Since any particular robot is carrying around points for the opposing team for the entire match, the reasoning here should be obvious. Without the rule preserving points in a tipped goal, you'd obviously end up with 6 robots "spontaneously" falling over at the end of every Finals match.... So I don't think it's a rule against clever descoring, I think it's a rule against massive and silly descoring.

rachakate 03-01-2009 20:52
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
"G32, E says nothing about the trailer."

"E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT. "

"BUMPER ZONE – the volume contained between two virtual horizontal planes, one inch above the floor and seven inches above the floor."

It is my understanding that the bumper zone is 2 virtual planes the entire length and width of the field. It is not just an area surrounding a robot. Therefore the bumper zone would apply to the trailer as well.

Electricia 1599 03-01-2009 21:20
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Does anyone know where you put the Accelerometer and the Yaw Rate Gyro?

bobwrit 03-01-2009 22:00
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electricia 1599 (Post 790238)
Does anyone know where you put the Accelerometer and the Yaw Rate Gyro?
You can place sensors anywhere on your robot as long as it keeps the robot within the legal dimensions.

Kevin Sevcik 03-01-2009 22:04
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachakate (Post 790205)
"G32, E says nothing about the trailer."

"E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT. "

"BUMPER ZONE – the volume contained between two virtual horizontal planes, one inch above the floor and seven inches above the floor."

It is my understanding that the bumper zone is 2 virtual planes the entire length and width of the field. It is not just an area surrounding a robot. Therefore the bumper zone would apply to the trailer as well.
The issue is whether section E is referring to solely ROBOT-ROBOT interaction, or if it includes ROBOT-TRAILER interaction. Since it discusses damage to another ROBOT, I'm assuming it only refers to ROBOT-ROBOT interaction. It's definitely a Q&A question, but I think there's a good case for ROBOT-TRAILER touching out of the bumper zone being legal.

ExarKun666 04-01-2009 00:48
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric O (Post 790158)
I am not sure I understand your argument. Are you agreeing with me or not? I said it is legal, not illegal. As far as I can see there is no penalty for de-scoring, scores are counted at the end of the match (G07). Since the trailer is not tipped I am saying that this move is not penalized and is beneficial to the team from a points perspective.
I disagree with you, srry :( , but I can't seem to reason why they would let you unscore if a trailer feel and all the balls fell out, and they still counted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electricia 1599 (Post 790182)
Here is another question: I know you cant touch anything but the bumper on other robots but could you touch your robots connected trailer?
I believe you can touch your own trailer by definition of the bumper zone, which implies 2 planes, implying the robot and the trailer. However, whether actually getting a ball out of the trailer and getting rid of it is counted as unscoring is something that is prbly going to be debated until the Q&A forum comes out on the FIRST site, then we can get some real answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 790198)
I'm with Eric O on this one. G32, E doesn't mention trailers, so contacting trailers outside the bumper zone should be legal, and you can extend outside your bumper zone as long as you stay in a 28x38x60 box. I think a descoring robot is legal, if difficult to pull off.

As to points still counting in a tipped trailer... Since any particular robot is carrying around points for the opposing team for the entire match, the reasoning here should be obvious. Without the rule preserving points in a tipped goal, you'd obviously end up with 6 robots "spontaneously" falling over at the end of every Finals match.... So I don't think it's a rule against clever descoring, I think it's a rule against massive and silly descoring.
I see what your point is....hmmmm well I think even, hypothetically, of they do let you unscore from your own trailer ONLY then building a bot to fit in the limits, even with an arm would be scary hard, be if it is allowed, shure give it a try.:]

pfreivald 07-01-2009 13:02
Re: Question on Lunacy!!!
 
I feel reasonably vindicated by Team Update #1. I thought it was pretty clear from the beginning that descoring would not be allowed -- I'm glad they clarified it so that teams are not expending effort on an invalid solution.

Patrick


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