Orbit balls breaking
 

We went to our local walmart and bought 6 orbits balls. After about 5-10 mins of trowing them over our mock player station into the trashcan 4 out of 6 were significantly "looser" Upon inspection it seemed like the plastic connectors on each part of the ball break the glue joint damaging the plastic. We opened the balls and put tape on the joints but the balls are not the same.

We were wondering if anyone else was experiencing the balls breaking or getting loose. Under the abuse of a game match how much damage will these see, and what will be the policy on replacing game objects in between matches?

Re: Orbit balls breaking
 

what would a FIRST competition be without game pieces that didn't fall apart?!?:D

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Leave it to Greg to be the first to break this years game piece. Hopefully these will hold up better than the tubes

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Yay....Field Reset gets even more fun!

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Our team has also been playing with the orbit balls and they have been looser.
I will assume that at the competition, there will be many replacements, many more than usual.

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I handled a ball at Kickoff that had broken similarly to how you describe. The plastic joint had broken, and the acute angle formed by it managed to rip through the fabric covering, exposing the pointy plastic ex-joint.

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Yea, I'm very sure that there will be many many of these orbit balls to use and replace.

But, as one who had to field reset Rack and Roll, we were allowed to use busted tubes during the qualifying matches in order to allow enough perfect tubes to use during elimination. Any busted tube during elimination, no matter how easy the fix, was not allowed to be put back on the field...so I'm going to guess that any noticeably loose Orbit ball will have to be removed during elims as well.

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We called Walmart before we went to see how many orbit balls they had and they said 12, we got there and there were only 8 that were in good shape so it is concerning to see that they can be so easily broken just in a store.

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My team was only able to get two of the three orbit balls at Walmart since one had been loosened and torn as well. I expect Blip Toys will be making a handsome sum of money off of the game this year.

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I'm going to start a company that makes objects perfect for a FIRST game. And I will be rich.

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I haven't noticed our included kit ball to be broken, but I have bought eight other balls from Walmart, noticed that one I was playing with seemed to be broken quite easily and its not really apparent unless you look at the ball closely.

Will be interesting to see how this will affect designs and competition.

-Tanner

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Makes you wonder how much storage 200+ Orbit balls will take up for one competition and the field travels to multiple, so there has to be about 800+ in the crates for week 1. wow.

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Odd thought to think somebody who probably hasn't a background than most of our mentors is making more than what one of them makes in a lifetime in only six weeks.

-Tanner

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I heard blip isn't selling them anymore.
Wal mart isn't getting any more.
No clue where FIRST is getting tens of thousands of them

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Possibly FIRST has them already?

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I would have to agree I don't see them running a game with out already having their stockpile of game pieces built up.

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possibility that blip discontinued them to keep up with the demand from FIRST?

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Unfortunately, I could see them doing it.

My theory is that FIRST needed so many of these things that they just bought Blip outright. :D

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Only 200 for a regional? 60 on the field at a time. I bet they need more than 200 to supply a regional.

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120 on the field at a time

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actually 136 would be used each match: 120 moon rocks, 8 empty cells, and 8 super cells. Only 128 would be on the field at any given time, but there are 136 in use per match

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from the TBA pictures if one of these break it could be quite mean to your skin
well atleast for a toy

first should ask them to change the glue for there products that are being sold right to FIRST

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Most of our team thought they were rubber upon first seeing them in the animation. That probably would have been better.

Sadly, yes, we have broken ours. Of course, we can't really blame it on anyone, as it was broken when some members of the team were playing soccer with it.

It actually still retains its shape with two bars broken. Although not nearly as nice, it is still mostly usable.

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Curious to find out if FIRST got a deal with the company after they discontinued this product. May explain the 10$ price at the stores yet FIRST having so many. The company may just want to get rid of them. Discontinuation could be explained by the lack of robust production.

Even still....10 bucks per orbit ball....that's pretty nuts :p

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Yeah really, I miss those cheapo poofballs...

Then again we have like 30 of them lying around...

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When we got to walmart to buy them there were quite a few broken in the store. But most of them did not have boxes or price tags either. I was thinking they were probably returns. That just got thrown back out on the shelf. I agree I think we will be going through alot of game pieces this year.

Them being so hard to find is a typical problem with FIRST teams though. Unless the manufacturer is ready for the rush they will be out for a long time. I have heard that they are not making them anymore also. First most likely made the game before the manufacture stoped production.

But to be honest there is alot of first teams. it is hard for a manufacture to figure out hos much to make of an item. Because I do not think that other people really understand the quanitity that is needed.

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All 3 balls we played with today broke in more ways than one. These things don't stand a chance.

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Just a quick question; Are there going to be a total of 136 orbit balls in one round?

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Total for the entire match, you're going to have a maximum of 136, yes, though not all 136 will be in play at one time.

Each team has 20 moon rocks total for the match (rule<G11>), so that's 6x20 moon rocks for a total of 120 moon rocks.

Furthermore, there are (a maximum of, providing there is no restriction due to previous matches) 4 empty cells in each outpost. 4 empty cells * 2 outposts, that's 128 empty cells. (rule <g12>)

Each of these empty cells can be exchanged for a super cell (2 located in each fueling station, rule <g13>), for a total maximum of 136 orbit balls.

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I forgot but don't all the robots start with 7 moon rocks also?

So I think the total is 178.

136+(7*6)=178

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you can put up to 7 of your 20 moonrocks into your robot.

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Yes, but those come from the 20 originally given to your team.

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We too picked up about 12 of these at Walmart, and within minutes of them arriving, one of them snapped. This is a bit worrisome in that each match will most likely have a few of these busted. In a typical regional with a 100 or so matches - they will need to supply several hundred extra. Unlike the ringers from 07 and the balls from 04 that can be stored flat, these will take up a bit more space!!

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Thank you for clearing up the confusion.

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Im not sure, we have been punting them around for quite a wile now and they still seem to be holding up quite ok, a bit loose i guess, but o well, fun stuff, its FRC!!!

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When you first recieve your new ball it has a rating of 5+ years old. Does this mean the rating would then be inaccurate, because the ball breaking at a glue joint with sharp plastic corners could mean danger. and if there were enough broken and enough problems/complaints. lol there may be a recall on the balls :ahh:

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Some "broken" joints can be easily fixed with some patience if they "break" right below a line of stitching.

I felt a tounge & groove/ dovetail type connection on the end of the plastic strip & was able to manipulate it within the fabric and snap it back together. All the years of hacking & fixing parts as part of the field reset crew is paying off I guess. lol

I haven't seen one without the fabric on it, but these things are going to get really mangled I do agree.
At least they won't leave foam all over the field though like the poof balls. Oh wells, no cool foam skid marks the full length of the field this year. HA!

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That explains why they've been discontinued (supposedly)...

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All 4 of the ones we found (& more other teams found) at the store were labeled (c)2007 & in a box shown here (or just loose from being played with at the store):



The ones in the kit have a simple tag on them & say (c) 2009.

Makes sense they were discontinued, & possibly the company was contacted by FIRST to make new ones??
I'm just guessing here though.



edit: Btw, I should probably give credit where credit is due for the picture.
Thanks Team 228 for the pic on FB I linked here! lol

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They were probably "discontinued" because FIRST gave such a massive order for them...

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Thanks for the helpful tip; our was "broken" within an hour of getting it (by 12:40 at kickoff, to be exact), but I too noticed that it was a manufactured joint as opposed to something actually snapped. I'll manipulate it back on Monday and maybe add a dab of adhesive in there with a needle or something.

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I noticed that when the balls we purchased at Wallmart break straight across the band at a 90 degree angle, however the bands on balls from kickoff seemed to have broken at an angle creating a sharp point that would poke through the fabric.

I wonder if the (c)2007 balls are constructed slightly differently from the (c) 2009 balls?

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[quote=Elgin Clock;791553]

I felt a tounge & groove/ dovetail type connection on the end of the plastic strip & was able to manipulate it within the fabric and snap it back together. All the years of hacking & fixing parts as part of the field reset crew is paying off I guess. lol[quote]

One of our teammates went to Wall Mart to buy some orbit balls, but all the balls were broken. He talked to the manager and was able to buy them for 2 dollars each instead of 10. While we were tossing them around during the meeting one of our other teammates discovered what you found and we were able to fix most of them.

Also, it wouldnt hurt to practice with some broken balls, thats why the teammate bought them. There is a very high chance that you will be playing with broken balls at a competition, and you want to be able to accommodate for that.
Joey

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What do you expect they are made in China and sold at Wal-Mart..... that's like THE single worst combo for quality of products in the world!

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I'm sure we'll see pictures of both without the fabric on them as teams destroy these in practicing with them.

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We cracked open our Kit today and threw the ball around at our strategy meeting. We were throwing it all walls, compressing it between our hands, the whole nine yards, and there was no apparent structural failure.

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Interesting...
While I haven't been able to use the balls (apart from throwing it up and down slightly while we were strategizing/installing Labview again) if they're most likely going to break it would be nice to know if there will be a large supply in reserve or what will happen if they get broken.

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We bought 5 at WalMart today (and now have 2 of each color combination ... do you think that the reason that FIRST picked the color combos for Lunacy is that that's all the manufacturer makes? ;) ). Of the 5, three were broken. We got the good ones for $10 apiece, and the manager gave us a $1 "discount" for the broken ones (thanks, buddy). Fortunately, two of the broken ones appear to be fixable (the break is at the joint), but the other is really broken.
We are speculating that we can carefully swap out a fixed segment from a broken one, thus making a good one out of two broken ones. Grrrh.

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After I got on last night and saw all the posts in this thread, I made sure we had a "only touch under supervision" rule on our only orbit ball. :p
We're hoping to find some more at local retailers, but we think it's too late now; other teams have probably already bought them out.

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Does anyone know of how they are bonded together? some of you have said that it was a glued joint, but why wouldn't they sonic weld it?

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Yup, I think THAT is the historically accurate answer for all of this - when we bought 4 of them at Wal-Mart 3 of 4 were broken, and I broke the 4th one an hour later while giving it a slight squeeze to see how it deforms. Unless the ball is just absolutely mangled beyond recognition I don't see the competition staff being able to replace them when only one or two bands are broken (imagine a robot squashing a group of 'em as it slides into the wall). You're just going to have to figure out how to deal with these things "mostly broken."

-Danny

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I managed to get a broken one for 4 dollars at Wal Mart because it was the last one available without a tag. The people just guessed 4 and we were just fine with that. However, I haven't seen any other signs of easy breakage. (I'm not sure if any of this is proper English, sorry)

Re: Orbit balls breaking
 

So what happens when FIRST doesn't have enough balls to get through the 'Ship?

42 Regionals + Championship (count as 5 regionals)=47 comptitions

136 balls needed to run a match, factor in broken ball replacements, estimated 350 balls per comp.

47*350= 16,450 balls!

or a high, probably more realistic estimate of 400 balls per comp = 18,800 balls!


not to mention off-seasons!!!!!

Re: Orbit balls breaking
 

Maybe teams can get bonus points if we make the balls for first?:D
I really doubt though that FIRST would plan a huge event around these balls if they had even an inkling that the balls would be going out of production.
Or they could've heard about the end of production for them and bought out the company's stock
Either way, I still dont think that FIRST would plan this w/out having the balls first.

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I feel the most sorry for the off-season competitions unless a HUGE source is found before the end of the regular season.
The Trackballs were hard enough to part the ~250 dollars for a whole set from Logo-Loc for when we needed them in the off-season for an event, (because FIRST did NOT supply them with the field we got), but at least they were available, & although they were expensive, we had a guaranteed place to get them.

My advice to anyone deciding to run an off-season this year for the first time, is to keep an eye out for as availability of the balls throughout this year before you decide to host one.

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Someone care to post an Orbit Ball teardown and show us one with the skin off? :D

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When we bought our Orbit Balls, one had the plastic exposed, and the others had at least one broke seam. So when we got back, we resewed the fabric connections to help preserve the balls for practice. I would recommend this.

My question is will FIRST repair them is they just have the fabric falling off. I doubt they will have field reset/repair sewing ... so will they use duct tape?

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I assume broken balls still count during the matches, but say a super cell breaks and cannot be handled, costing the alliance the match? Would they replay the match? What if just a moon rock broke? I am sure they will have replacements at the arena, but you can't replace pieces in-game.

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My guess is that you'd first have to define what it means to be "broke," which I have yet to see - this is an important question to have answered. Secondly, FIRST is not going to replay matches because of broken items on the field, unless it was clearly "broken" before the match started (and even then it's sketchy as to what they'd do).

Look at a couple previous year's games:

Raising the Bar - No replays of matches because of slightly deflated balls.
Aim High - No replays of matches because of slightly deformed balls.
Rack 'n Roll - No replays for under-deflated or completely deflated tubes.
Overdrive - No replays for trackballs that were slightly deflated.

The short answer - be able to deal with broken orbit balls.

-Danny

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This is one of the broken balls mid "fix" with industrial tape.

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I managed to find seven, broken or not, at local Walmarts. Some were fully reparable because it was just an undone 'snap'-type connection. Others are broken in the middle of bands (or elsewhere not at the joints).

We are planning to build our robot with the expectations that balls will both figuratively 'break' (that is, come unsnapped) and actually break during competition, and that these in general will not be repaired.

Patrick

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Duct tape?! :eek: FRC professionals insist on Official FIRST Gaffer's Tape for all repairs.

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hahahaha duck tape is like the god of all tape

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So, our two teams (since we're mentoring another team this year) only got one game ball.

Any easy solution?

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raid an opposing teams' ball closet.

try buying some @ wallmart.

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i'd wish Blip would manufacture more orbit balls but I know they arn't... oh well sigh the good thing is that FIRST is selling them online I hope FIRST bought a billion of them for each regional.

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i think what really happened is that FIRST baught out Blip and took control of the storeage supplies. then once the competitions are over they will sell off the toy as a fundraiser for furture competions. FISRT is becoming a fortune 50 company and will eventually rule the economy. Mwhahahaha. all because of Orbit balls.

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There will be an extremely limited supply through FIRST, and I don't expect them to have enough to sell to every team. If you want them, you will need to be quick.

Wetzel

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A very similar thing happened to my team's ball. I cant understand how somthing sold as a toy, even before this year's challenge was released, could be so fragile. That must be one of the reasons they stopped production of them :P

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I'm scared that our moon balls are going to break, as well. We've been practicing shooting constantly and I noticed some severe bends in some of the balls, and considering the shortage of them, if they break, they're going to be extremely hard to find. We recently sent 7 of them to a team in London, England that couldn't seem to find any of them. So London, take care of those moon cells!!!!

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we bought only one of the orbit balls and it broke before in an hour of having it

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Yeah.
Our team ball already broke so I've been assigned to fix it.. each time.
Any ideas better than tape?
Has anyone tried hot glue?:confused:

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Maybe a splint, (think broken leg) would work.:D

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In answer to other part of question at beginning, I believe I saw a Q & A saying that any balls with two or more broken legs noticed by field reset would be considered "broken" and replaced, but that teams should design systems to accomdate normal changes in field pieces, ect

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I simply dont believe that each regional event has enough balls for competition, considering that a LOT will break.
I think teams will end up working with a majority of broken balls for the most part at competitions.
Designs need to be able to compensate for it, especial ball shooters.
We've been prototyping all kinds of designs and wheel speeds and our orbit balls are trashed after 1 hour of testing.
We are really frustrated by the LACK of durability of these things!

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we started with 13 balls and are now down to three undamaged balls, 7 balls with only one fracture, 2 with two fractures and 1 with 4 fractures. (dont ask)

we tried using a pnuematic punch to shoot them, but all it did was destroy them. the initial impulse kept fracturing the plastic, maybe its just to cold in our shop:D

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Yeahh they defineatley could be better made, but even if they have some fractures or breaks or the seams split, most of our balls still can be used. I'm betting, though, at competitions that we shall ruin the balls so throughly during game play that eventually we will run out of balls. Who knows?

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Well, our first one finally broke beyond repair.

Kit Orbit Ball (K.O.B) Jan. 3rd- Jan 15th 2009

May you rest is pieces. :(

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Hot glue works quite well when the band is intact, just failed at the connection.

Remove the stitches from the affected band.
Slide the fabric cover around until both ends are out of the cover.
Remove the old failed glue.
Add hot glue, and snap into place.
Clean up any rough edges before you replace the cover. It can snag and rip.

So far we've only had one ball out for testing, and have only had one band become disconnected.

Wetzel

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the ball we received in the KOP is still unbroken, even after some abuse. And we've acquired plenty more from walmarts buying only the unbroken ones.

We've kept all of them but the KOP ball in a safe place so they wont get messed up before we are testing the bot, and the KOP ball exposed to hyper kids still isn't broken...

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of course they have....

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We too have had a problem with breaking balls.

Isn't there a penalty for breaking the balls?

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I have to ask the same question in past years they have disallowed robots which posed a threat to game pieces but this any robot that has a roller/conveyor belt based intake will be a potential hazard.

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We found that we can repair orbit balls using heat shrink tubing.

It seems to work well.

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sorry this is maaaaaaaaaddddd late, but...

yeah i remember people were discussing last year that one team got like 7-8 hurdles in one competition even though the trackball was almost completely deflated... i guess we're just gonna have to deal with the broken balls this year...

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I just noticed FIRST posted, in their Game Documents area, an Orbit Ball repair guide, with pointers where to get the hole punch and plastic rivets. Unfortunately the company only sells rivets with a $100 minimum order.

Has anyone invested in making a large purchase who would be willing to sell lesser quantities to other teams?

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No those 7 are part of the 120 moon rocks so 78 moon rocks will be put in play during telop

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McMaster sells plastic blind rivets.

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In all our testing of intakes, lifts, and shooting mechanisms, we broke one band on one ball.

Until we started human player practice, that is. As soon as we started throwing balls long distances, and people started to kick balls back to the human players, balls started breaking left and right. A ban on kicking was only partially successful, but I think that ban was not well followed. :rolleyes:
For repairs, we just cut the seam, taped up the broke part, and pulled the fabric back. We didn't have any noticeable change in ball give or dynamics vs the fully original ones. Easier, cheaper, and faster than installing plastic rivets. (Paul, wanna race? :) )

Wetzel