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Otaku 03-01-2009 18:49

robot design question
 
so, we're trying to figure out if it's legal to design the bot so part of the trailer would be within the robot's dimensions, kind of like something between a fork. Can't find anything in the rules. Help?

ExarKun666 03-01-2009 18:54

Re: robot design question
 
<R18> To attach the TRAILER to the ROBOT, TEAMS must use a Trailer Hitch constructed from
materials provided in the 2009 Kit Of Parts. Details on the construction of the Trailer Hitch
are provided in Drawing “GE-09040.”

There it is, so if your design includes that then I don't think it's a violation.

Otaku 03-01-2009 18:57

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ExarKun666 (Post 789969)
<R18> To attach the TRAILER to the ROBOT, TEAMS must use a Trailer Hitch constructed from
materials provided in the 2009 Kit Of Parts. Details on the construction of the Trailer Hitch
are provided in Drawing “GE-09040.”

There it is, so if your design includes that then I don't think it's a violation.

what we had thought up was something like a [ shape, with the trailer hitch in the middle of the vertical section in between the 'prongs'.

ExarKun666 03-01-2009 18:57

Re: robot design question
 
Just found this too:

Quote:

D. The Trailer Hitch must be located on an outer edge of the ROBOT structure such that it may
easily connect with the tongue of the TRAILER (attached to the TRAILER).
E. The Trailer Hitch must be placed such that, as the TRAILER swings from side to side, the
first contact between the TRAILER and ROBOT is BUMPER-to-BUMPER and not TRAILER-
tongue-to-BUMPER (to prevent placing excessive stress upon, and possibly damaging, the
TRAILER tongue). See Figure 8-6.
This is all under <R18> so look at that once more, if there are no violations in your design I say it's all good.

Otaku 03-01-2009 19:00

Re: robot design question
 
<r18> section D says outer edge, technically the inside of a bracket would be inside edge, thus illegal.

oh well.

ExarKun666 03-01-2009 19:01

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Otaku (Post 789973)
what we had thought up was something like a [ shape, with the trailer hitch in the middle of the vertical section in between the 'prongs'.

Well if it's up vertically and attached, will that allow it to swing side to side, because it has to do that.

Oh w8 look at this:

Quote:

B. The Trailer Hitch must be rigidly attached to a fixed location on the ROBOT, with the long
dimension of the Trailer Hitch horizontal
and the opening of the C-channel facing away from
the ROBOT. The horizontal center line of the Trailer Hitch must be 2-13/16 inches above
the floor.
If you are planning a vertical fork it won't work

Otaku 03-01-2009 19:03

Re: robot design question
 
i'll try and get a 3d image of what i'm talking about.

dmlawrence 03-01-2009 19:28

Re: robot design question
 
The dimensions of the trailer with bumpers range from approximately 34" (distance between midpoints of opposite sides) to 39" (distance between opposite corners). This would make it near-impossible to fit within a U-shape, as each side of the U could only be 2 inches wide.

Also note that the trailer tongue protrudes about 10" from the trailer, so you would not be able to achieve a tight fit.

JesseK 03-01-2009 19:34

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

B. The Trailer Hitch must be rigidly attached to a fixed location on the ROBOT, with the long
dimension of the Trailer Hitch horizontal and the opening of the C-channel facing away from
the ROBOT. The horizontal center line of the Trailer Hitch must be 2-13/16 inches above
the floor.
Also note that you may not move the hitch mount after the match has started.

Otaku 04-01-2009 01:03

Re: robot design question
 


image is top view, and not to scale completely, but you get the general idea.

The question is "Is this legal?". In so far as what constitutes an "outside" edge. The rule's not completely unambiguious about this. Can parts of the robot "wrap around" the trailer so to speak? Would we be allowed to make a design that limits the lateral movement, through the placement of the hitch alone and no other modifications, of the trailer, assuming that trailer to robot contact is still going to be bumper-to-bumper?

EDIT: also, this design won't ever see field time, I kinda wanna keep the real one hidden, so just imagine that the trailer isn't as engulfed as it is here. The same questions apply, though.

Katie_UPS 04-01-2009 02:24

Re: robot design question
 
I've been doodling that all day with a scale and dimentions, and with the size restrictions, its possible, but hard. If you do, as you sketched, you're in the clear, but there is a rule about the trailed bumper and your robot 's contact, its clearly stated in <R18>.

Otaku 04-01-2009 02:41

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS (Post 790631)
I've been doodling that all day with a scale and dimentions, and with the size restrictions, its possible, but hard. If you do, as you sketched, you're in the clear, but there is a rule about the trailed bumper and your robot 's contact, its clearly stated in <R18>.

So long as the trailer only contacts the robot bumper to bumper, it's legal, then.

Alright.

Iceman1330 04-01-2009 02:43

Re: robot design question
 
I think what you are talking about is this. (16"x36" contact base)






The red areas are the "blocking spaces where balls can't be thrown. All measurements are ballpark (within 1-2" accurate, Proof of Concept)

The robot fits in the "box" and hugs at least half of the trailer. Weight issues might be a problem, but if you make the shroud light enough and place the batteries and heavy stuff in front you might be OK.

Racer26 04-01-2009 03:04

Re: robot design question
 
A neat design, nice drafting in the short time since kickoff.

My $0.02 is that with such a design, and the way it effectively eats your entire size envelope, you cant hopper up the balls to bring them to your human players more effectively, and you can't really fit a launcher in there either, meaning two key ways of scoring are severely hindered... not sure if its a net gain or not.

EDIT: also, the CoG being off center like that could make you easily tippable/have problems with moving on this already difficult to move on surface.

Furthermore, strategies like this will just make the human players go for your teammates goals, since they're wide open they're more likely to score there, rendering the protection they give more or less redundant.

GaryVoshol 04-01-2009 08:16

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman1330 (Post 790637)
I think what you are talking about is this. (16"x36" contact base)

//images deleted//

The red areas are the "blocking spaces where balls can't be thrown. All measurements are ballpark (within 1-2" accurate, Proof of Concept)

The robot fits in the "box" and hugs at least half of the trailer. Weight issues might be a problem, but if you make the shroud light enough and place the batteries and heavy stuff in front you might be OK.

Are those short segments adjacent to the trailer proper 6" minimum lengths? (You count the plywood, not the foam.)

Is 2/3 of the BUMPER PERIMETER enclosed by bumpers? I think so, if the short pieces are at least 6".

BUMPER PERIMETER is defined by the outermost corners of the robot. The "outer" location for the trailer hitch is not defined.

Rich Kressly 04-01-2009 08:26

Re: robot design question
 
I see one problem with this design concept with the way I am reading R11.
The width is defined as a max of 28 at the start and during the match. The way I am reading this rule, you can't construct a 'wide-body' robot. Does anyone else see this the same way I do?

"<R11>At the start of, and during, the MATCH the ROBOT shall fit within the dimensions listed below:
Width Maximum 28 inches (71.12cm)
Depth Maximum 38 inches (96.52cm)
Height Maximum 60 inches (152.40cm)
Weight Maximum 120 pounds (54.43Kg)"

GaryVoshol 04-01-2009 08:32

Re: robot design question
 
Is width and depth defined in any particular direction relative to the robot travel?

Rule <R80> defines width and depth in the opposite directions for the driver station, 60" wide by 12" deep.

Rich Kressly 04-01-2009 08:43

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 790706)
Is width and depth defined in any particular direction relative to the robot travel?

Rule <R80> defines width and depth in the opposite directions for the driver station, 60" wide by 12" deep.

That's the magic question in my book...
I was comparing to the language from the 2008 manual, where R11 reads:
"Prior to the beginning of the MATCH, the ROBOT shall be placed in a STARTING CONFIGURATION that fits within the dimensions listed below: (with the exact same chart as this year)"

It seems to me the language in that opening sentence this year may be more restrictive to what length and depth are, not just restricting the overall size of the robot during the match. Perhaps it's a good question for Q&A.

Alan Anderson 04-01-2009 10:28

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 790706)
Is width and depth defined in any particular direction relative to the robot travel?

I haven't seen anything that prevents your robot from having "sideways" wheels so that it travels "left" and "right" instead of "forward" and "backward", and the trailer hitch isn't required to be mounted on the "back" of the robot.

So even if the front of the robot is defined as the narrow side, the rules don't seem to make you put that front facing away from the trailer.

Rich Kressly 04-01-2009 11:06

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 790788)
I haven't seen anything that prevents your robot from having "sideways" wheels so that it travels "left" and "right" instead of "forward" and "backward", and the trailer hitch isn't required to be mounted on the "back" of the robot.

So even if the front of the robot is defined as the narrow side, the rules don't seem to make you put that front facing away from the trailer.

I'm inclined to start leaning your way Alan. Mind you the ONLY info I have right now is from the 2008 Q&A, but last year's manual had the same sizing chart and the wide body orientation was allowed in the Q&A in 2008. Should prob still be asked this year, but carry on with the wide design ideas....

Madison 04-01-2009 11:11

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 790700)
Are those short segments adjacent to the trailer proper 6" minimum lengths? (You count the plywood, not the foam.)

Out of curiosity, why do you think that the 6" length must be entirely backed by plywood?

I don't yet disagree, necessarily, but I'm trying to find a reason to. :)

Kevin Sevcik 04-01-2009 12:19

Re: robot design question
 
I think the main obstacle to a design like this is how the GDC is going to define the "outer edge" of the robot. If they go with the convex hull sytle definition of the BUMPER PERIMETER, then all the easiest designs (seen above) are illegal. Then you'll have to come up with an even tinier robot that captures the trailer via the PVC pipes, or some support bars that articulate out from your robot when the match starts.

Matt times 04-01-2009 12:40

Re: robot design question
 
what program did u use to draw that? it seems really useful (msg 13)

sbrumund 04-01-2009 12:58

Re: robot design question
 
The design would appear to be legal as you have bumper to bumper contact not bumper to trailer toung contace.

Keep in mind that with this configuration when you turn you will be sliding the trailer wheels sideways. Depending on the weight of the trailer your turning ability could be severely constricted.

We are considering a similar design but not for the trailer but for loading balls into the other teams trailers. This assumes we are fast and agile enough and to catch the other team.

nahstobor 04-01-2009 13:03

Re: robot design question
 
Is the trailer hitch apart of the robot dimensions?

SWIM 04-01-2009 14:18

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nahstobor (Post 790994)
Is the trailer hitch apart of the robot dimensions?

Yeah, it is.

GaryVoshol 04-01-2009 20:30

Re: robot design question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison (Post 790829)
Out of curiosity, why do you think that the 6" length must be entirely backed by plywood?

I don't yet disagree, necessarily, but I'm trying to find a reason to. :)

<R08>
"A. BUMPERS must be built in segments, with a minimum length of six inches, ..."
"C. Each BUMPER segment must be backed by a piece of 3/4-inch thick by 5-inch tall piece of plywood."
"J. Corners and joints between BUMPER segments may be filled with short pieces of vertically oriented pool noodle, by wrapping the pool noodles around the corners, or by beveling the ends between adjacent segments so they form a tight and complete protective surface (see Figure 8 – 2)."

So foam can extend beyond the ends of the plywood to protect a robot corner, but the plywood must back up the entire bumper segment length.


And, maybe to answer my previous question, Figure 8-6 in the trailer hitch rule seems to show a wide-front robot. But then, the trailers in that figure aren't regular hexagons either, so maybe it's just a distorted drawing.

Team2339 05-01-2009 14:56

IS THE "HITCH" PART OF THE ROBOTS DEMENSIONS
 
OUR TEAM IS WONDERING IF THE HITCH IS PART OF THE ROBOTS DIMENSTION?

ANY INFORMATION ON THAT WOULD BE USEFUL.....THANK YOU:D

EricH 05-01-2009 15:03

Re: IS THE "HITCH" PART OF THE ROBOTS DEMENSIONS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Team2339 (Post 792570)
OUR TEAM IS WONDERING IF THE HITCH IS PART OF THE ROBOTS DIMENSTION?

ANY INFORMATION ON THAT WOULD BE USEFUL.....THANK YOU:D

Please don't shout here... (aka "Please turn off Caps Lock")

And it is not listed as being specifically excluded under <R11> A; therefore it is included. Plan accordingly.

Petey 05-01-2009 19:21

Re: robot design question
 
As far as I read the rules,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman1330 (Post 790637)
I think what you are talking about is this. (16"x36" contact base)






The red areas are the "blocking spaces where balls can't be thrown. All measurements are ballpark (within 1-2" accurate, Proof of Concept)

The robot fits in the "box" and hugs at least half of the trailer. Weight issues might be a problem, but if you make the shroud light enough and place the batteries and heavy stuff in front you might be OK.

this is a legal idea.

Although *hint hint* you may consider alternative orientations of the robot for more coverage!


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