2009 Aparatuses
 

Allot of discussion is taking place on drive train decisions, which are in this game very important, but how about the rest of the robot functionality? Robots could benefit from being able to heard well to their human players, and also to be able to receive from them, and possibly score on other robots, using the camera or not. The amazing feat of programing a rotating accurate shooter to always score on competitors trailers is possible for some teams as demonstrated in a similar problem in aim high, but for the most part then and still now most teams will have to rely on human aim to score on other robots, and will probably opt to try and dump or some other close range scoring.

So my question, if you have to chase down another robot's trailer you have a tough job ahead of you, would the time and percent of success be higher spending that time playing defense and giving moon rocks to your human players to shoot at one of their many moving targets; who will be focusing on the match and not paying attention to the unavoidable payload specialists. Is including the functionality important? I am leaning to no, the only reason I can think is that it will help score on un-functioning robots/stationary trailers in qualifying matches, where that will certainly come up. Being agile and good at getting rocks to the specialists seems to be a more valuable design focus.

Let me know what you think about that, and the apparatus in general.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

I think you might get some good ideas from the 2006 game (especially the "behind the design" book for that year) and the 2004 game.

Both games had to move balls, 2004 required players to shoot them into mobile (and stationary) goals similar to this year's goals.

Jason

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Don't forget 2002. Those were very similar goals and has the same sort of feel as this game, except, we have less traction :P.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

I think the dump action of the teams baskets back then violate the <R18> rule.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

My team is definetly thinking a lot about apparatuses. i think that if a team has a really good tracking system, and a highly accurate launcher, they could well dominate the field. However, i think there's mostly going to be close-range fighting due to the highly chaotic driving surface. So a dumping hopper might be best. It is difficult to say.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

<R18> is the rule that talks about trailer-hitch construction... Is that really the one you mean:confused:

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

I believe she might mean the rule where you cannot go outside the 28x 38 x 60 footprint this year. NOT AT ALL.

Honestly, I believe shooters are really inconceivable because in the past few game, the targets have not been moving as crazily as they will this year. The trailers are attached to the OTHER team's robots, and obviously taking your time to line up to shoot will prove fruitless if the trailer moves.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

I agree, I think where in the realm of mechanisms that can grab and hold the cells while staying within the footprint.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Everyone who say teams can't or won't do this haven't seen the teams who consistently have and will do that. Y'know the ones who are always getting the banners and the robot design awards all the time.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

What do you think of doing somthing like a snowblower, and have the camera follow one basket, and shoot in that basket?

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Some of our team mentors want to make a shooting apparatus, but some people (mainly the design subteam and the drive team) think this will be unfeasible. The shooter not only has to adjust for distance (so small coding feat), but also has to be able to land inside the goal/on a post without a backboard. In 2006 we had a backboard, so it was much easier, but this year, I don't think shooter bots will be effective at all.

Not only that, but the game is going to be so much of a clusterf*** that you wouldn't be able to aim for more than half a second without being knocked off target/filled with balls.

I think we're going to see lots of 2006 bots that were modified/had minor design changes for this game. I also think this is going to be a very low scoring game for the actual robots, but the human players are invaluable now.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

i think that aiming and shooting on the fly will be vital skills for any shooting robot. you may not be able to do complex manuvering while aiming and shooting, but if you're moving with a constant velocity, a rotating shooter with good software might be able to manage it.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

We considered using a wedge that could be driven into the goal and then opened (like a beak) releasing tons of balls. It would make driving/aiming a lot easier. We'll have to see how that goes in prototyping...

If I learned anything in 2006 it was that driving while shooting is pretty-much-darn-near-impossible. The robots just jiggle too much while driving to make good shots.

The best shooters of '06 had turrets and tilts that could get into position in seconds and fire off all the balls while the robot was sitting still (think 25). Robots that could'nt shoot very fast got pushed out of position and missed most of their shots.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

would that go against the size rule though?

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Assuming it was not very long and was included as part of the robots length. It might also be recessed within a C-shaped portion of bot, perfect for controlling a goal.

Its too bad we can't latch onto these things. It would make scoring easier. :)

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

I think we're going to see a lot of conveyors and ball (moon rock) lifting devices this year. Shooting is possible but not feasible for most teams. I think the shape of the Orbit ball would make it hard to shoot because your shooting apparatus would touch different rings of the ball at the same time.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

<R17> kinda kills that idea. Sorry...

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

I think a lot of people are thinking we're gonna be in a fast paced game like last year. From what I can tell this game will be much slower than last year and shooting could be possible, maybe not long range shooting like 2006 but shooting from a few feet away.

People may also be overlooking the ability to pin someone's robot or trailer to a wall to get a quick ball dump.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Different kind of wedge. I however might be worried about the no out of bumper zone contact rules might be applied everything but the rocks and cells.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Not really, as long as it can't be used to push a robot, as in if it was placed sufficiently far from the edge.

EDIT: Fred beat me to it.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Go back and watch 2006 a little. There were teams that could hit the goal while being hit.

That year there were plenty of robots who could fire on the move, I know RUSH did it.

Go watch 2006 again, I can't recall the exact number but there were fewer balls that year and they COATED the field. The robots might not be racing around as fast but I think that balls will be flying all the time.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

what do you guys think about a two wheel robot???thats attached to the goal.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Okay so there's bound to be a lot of offensive strategies in the game, but in terms of defence has anyone come across a rule saying a robot can't block their trailer or take moon rocks/empty cells out of their trailer?
:)

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

I haven't seen any rule against it, and there've been threads mentioning this. However, it would have to be accounted for in the initial dimensions, and I believe could not actually make contact with the goal.

Can't remember which rules to cite here though, and don't have the time to look it up at the moment.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

What if you were to hook up a pneumatic-like system to the trailer hitch that would pull it in closer to your bot, thus making maneuverability easier? (and somewhat preventing damage to the hitch too)

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

<R18> Part B:The Trailer Hitch must be rigidly attached to a fixed location on the ROBOT

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Where might some of us newer teams find these "behind the design" books?

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

amazon.com is a good place to start looking for any book

http://www.amazon.com/FIRST-Robots-H.../dp/1592533663

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

As far as the wedge design concept goes I believe that it would violate the rule regarding intentional entanglement.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

Amazon. I reccomend that book to rookie teams, but more so going back and watching some TBA matches from 2006. And you can never go wrong with a few advanced searches for Aim High discussion on CD.

Re: 2009 Aparatuses
 

with only 20 balls per team and the preload of 7, which means that the human player only has 13 (assuming you preload everything) is a gathering device for a shooter important. maybe all the robot does is shoot from a clip, like in a pistol, and pushes moon rocks back to the payload specialist.