![]() |
Last year's kit frame
Since to be able to use last year's kit frame you had to fabricate it (cut it to length), it would not be allowed on this year's robot per rule <R33>. "FABRICATED ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions shall not be used on ROBOTS in the 2009 competition."
IFI still has the old kitbot frame on their website, so it could be purchased and used this year. I'd suggest any team doing so have a receipt available for inspectors. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
I don't believe a receipt is totally necessary. You are allowed to use a previous year's kitbot frame IF is composed of parts that are still available from the companies that provided them. These parts would just need to be properly spec'd and accounted for on the teams BOM (Bill of Materials, for you rookies ;) ).
HOWEVER, parts from previous years kits that are no longer commercially available to all teams OR are not legal by all rules that pertain to the robot may NOT be used. Hope that clears some things up. EDIT: For anyone trying to find part numbers or prices of previous year kit parts link is below. http://ifirobotics.com/kitbot.shtml |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Also, no where in the rules does it say COTS parts have to be purchased after any particular time (for example Kickoff). We have one complete, unused KitBot and most of the parts for a second one that have been purchased separately at various times over the past 3 years. I don't find any rule stating that we can't use the old KitBot materials even from 3 years ago as long as we haven't cut/modified them (fabricated) and IFI is now still selling them after Kickoff (as COTS) so that any team could buy the same if they wanted to. We would, of course, have to declare the current purchase cost on our cost accounting/BoM at inspection but nothing I have read limits when the purchase has to have occured. No team buys all new raw stock each year and throws out all their unused aluminum/plastic/etc. left over from the previous year so why should the KitBot be any different? In fact, as far as I can tell a veteran team that didn't use their issued KitBot from some previous year that say just stuck the box on the shelf and built a custom frame that year would be perfectly legal to pull that old IFI KitBot box off the shelf and use it this year if they wanted to as long as they accounted for it in their cost analysis.
If it is FIRST's intent to not allow teams to use the IFI KitBot this year they better hurry up and define that in the rules. If they did I think it would be rather un-GP of FIRST to single out one specific COTS part from one specific vendor and make it illegal. It would also further add to the rumors regarding the IFI/FIRST split. This is sort of why I was asking the questions I did in this thread. Both the AndyMArk C-Base and the IFI KitBot retail for ~$190. Both are basically functionally the same. Why come out with something new if it isn't better or cheaper? FIRST has to have a reason but why? |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
Not completely of course, as we can still use the IFI Victor's (as I recall from the Kickoff) for the control system, & you are certainly allowed to buy things from IFI as long as they meet requirements set in place by FIRST & the manual just like any other supplier of compents, since they are in fact a supplier of COTS items, but in the future I expect a lot less IFI products included in the kit or none at all. This chassis this year is just one of them. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
An update from the GDC: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11519
Last year's kit frame is considered custom-made for FRC 2008, so cannot be used. You'd have to buy a new IFI kitbot to use it this year. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
Food for thought:
The one in the KOP last year was identical to the one we sold last year and is identical to the one we're selling now. -John |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Is it just me, or is it weird that that link goes to the 2008 Q&A Response Forum, as opposed to the 2009 Q&A Response Forum?
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
(Just look at the dates of the posts for any clarification.) I agree that is completely confusing, & that FIRST should lock all 2008 forums at this point! :yikes: |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
On the plus side, as far as I know there is no way to "carbon date" an aluminum alloy to figure out when it was made... |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
This is consistent, but the comment from the GDC that is was "custom" is not correct as they stated it apparently going by John's inside info. Bottom line: It can still be used. Just buy it this year, have proof if necessary with a dated receipt (I haven't looked at the cost & "date purchased" accounting rules completely yet to be honest) & be good to go. Quote:
Then again, there is also the rules in place that FIRST says "we don't care if you don't pay anything at all for a component, it just has to be accounted for in your robot budget as the price it would be off the shelf if you were to purchase it." (with the usual other restrictions in place following the flowchart of course) So.. technically, you could "find" & get a 2008/2009 chassis "donated to your team" from in your team closet from last year for free, but still account for it for the price it would cost you this year if you were to buy it from IFI. Confused yet?? I know I am slightly. lol |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
What disturbs me isnt the fact that it can still be used...its the fact that according to JVN (who I'd say is an incredibly reliable source...) the kit frame has not changed since it was put in the KOP in 2008. I am interested to see what parts are custom from 2008...edited to not offend anyone, as that was not the original intent of my post |
Re: Last year's kit frame
In ten years, I've not once been asked to produce a receipt in support of our Bills of Materials.
So many things are already enforced through 'gracious professionalism,' that I can't really understand why it'd suddenly become necessary for teams to be able to provide documentation for any or all purchases. Teams using an IFI chassis should be aware of the rules regarding its use -- particularly that it's still available as a COTS item -- and be able to relate that information if questioned. A team's word -- especially where it relates not to issues of safety -- should be as good as gold for inspectors. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
If John's claim is true, then a mint-condition IFI chassis kit from the 2008 KOP would unequivocally satisfy the parts use flowchart and all related rules. My understanding of the official rules hierarchy is that it takes more than just a Q&A response to change that. I can't speak to any of FIRST's reasons or intents, but I hope that they will either clarify which components of the kitbot were custom to the 2008 KOP (thus refuting John's claim), rescind the Q&A response, or issue an update amending the rules to specifically outlaw kitbots that came in old kits.
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
I have posted a question to the Q&A requesting clarification as to which kitbot components were custom to the 2008 KOP, and which are still identical to the individual parts currently sold by IFI. This should help to reconcile the contrary claims coming from the two sides, and explain exactly what out of that box is still legal.
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
I apologize for the "insult"...however I was just stating an observation. Please do not take offense to it. Brandon |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
The thing is that, currently, there's no precedent and nothing in the 2009 manual that suggests that teams will be required to provide proof of purchase for any of the materials used this season. Furthermore, there's nothing that requires that COTS materials be purchased within a given time frame -- so that's why I'm confused as to why an IFI chassis purchased post January 3rd might be considered legal while one from a prior date might not. We have a pretty tremendous stock of bearings, sprockets and chain on hand and have used items from that stock -- all unmodified and all still available -- on this season's robot and on those we've built in the past. I think it's ridiculous to expect us to produce a proof of purchase for those items and worse to expect that we purchase them only after kickoff. It places undue demand on our suppliers, drives up costs and slows our development. Folks that were around in the years when the rules required nearly all parts be purchased from Small Parts will remember what a hassle and headache it was to get things in a timely, cost efficient manner. If the intent was for teams to maintain documentation of all purchases and to be able to provide said documentation, it should have been communicated to teams at the outset of the season -- if not earlier -- and I don't think you can fault them for being out of compliance ex post facto. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
I read it as:
You can not take the IFI kit-frame out of your 2008 robot and use it as your 2009 frame. You can take an unused/untouched/unmodified 2008 IFI kit-frame and use it as your 2009 frame. The implication is that modifying a COTS item makes it a custom item. Is my interpretation correct? |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Eric,
I would either add "not built into a kit in 2008" (untouched?) or change "kit-frame" to "kit-frame components". Russ |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
"The 2008 kit-bot chassis was custom-made for the 2008 FRC competition." The restriction against using it on this year's robot follows from that simple declaration, not from a distinction between "unmodified COTS" and "modified". |
Re: Last year's kit frame
The GDC's has responded to a followup question regarding the IFI chassis provided in previous KOP. They have also responded to a question about 56mm Banebots Gearboxes using similar reasoning.
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11564 Quote:
Quote:
The other bizarre part of these rulings is the complete about-face from a 2008 ruling regarding the same gearboxes. Rule <R32> from the 2009 Manual is word-for-word equivalent with <R36> from the 2008 Manual. Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
This is a bad rule. There is no competitive advantage in buying what you already have; all it does is penalize teams who want to save a couple bucks.
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
As the sole source of what is and is not "by the book", however, the GDC needs no support from reality in order for what it says to be law. Instead of chewing on the subject and complaining about the taste, let's just swallow it and move on. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
As I'm reading their responses, there's still a loophole of sanity that they haven't covered yet. Namely, that <R32> only pertains to salvaging parts that were actually USED on previous robots. So, presumably, they wouldn't prevent you from using an IFI frame that was just collecting dust somewhere.
Also, the rule only pertains to KoP items. So, I would hope, any extra IFI frames (or BB trannies) that you bought during the 2007/2008 season would still be legal. I'll be posting a Q&A concerning these issues. One does wonder if they have any plans or hopes of actually enforcing these rulings, aside from depending on the GP of teams. Given the funding crunch on teams, and that the only perceptible difference between a 2008 frame and a 2009 frame is $200 and some convoluted reasoning.... I can't see GP making it very far here. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Humm...
So if you pull a CIM motor (that was custom made for FRC 2007 or 2008) from your old robot and it is in "off the shelf" condition, you can use it. But, if you've got an IFI chassis that was never on a robot, you can't? I always thought re-use was better than recycling. -Mr. Van Robodox |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
I must have missed it so would someone please explain again why the KITBOT from 2008 is different from the 2005, 2006, or 2007? The KITBOT may have been specifically designed for the 2005 FIRST competition but it has been available as COTS since 2005. Why is the 2008 KITBOT being singling out?
I still cannot find any rule or Q&A specifying that COTS parts have to be purchased after some specific date. If a KITBOT or parts thereof is still new, uncut, not modified, etc. then what makes it a 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2009 KITBOT? There is no difference as far as I can tell. Kevin's explicit questions should clear things up but somehow I doubt they will. Given the rules we were all given at Kickoff I see no reason not to assume that an IFI KitBot is COTS and thus is legal to use no matter when it was acquired as long as you account for it's current retail price in you cost accounting. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
Miss Daisy has an IFI kit frame sitting on a shelf, and a rookie team does not. Both want to use an IFI kit frame. Who's at an advantage? |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
|
Re: Last year's kit frame
I'm getting the impression that FIRST is correct in their Q&A answer (in terms of restricting old robot parts that are/were COTS) but is doing a poor job of explaining the distinction between that situation and the use of the same parts as COTS items in general.
As I read the rules, for the current robot, you can use a currently-COTS IFI chassis, even if your chassis was included in a kit, as long as you never used it on a previous robot. (The rules require that it is generally available now on COTS terms. It doesn't actually have to have been bought or acquired while COTS.) <R32> clearly applies only to old robot parts and to no-longer-COTS parts, so any Q&A interpretation of <R32> can't be construed as applying to other items (like unused old kit parts which are currently COTS), unless they say so explicitly and provide justification. In terms of actually implementing this rule, it seems to me that FIRST ought to be publishing a complete list of parts that are potentially excluded under <R32>, part B. How else can teams easily and definitively determine the legality of a re-used item? They're not necessarily privy to what was developed especially for FIRST, and what's just a donated part—and under most circumstances, I bet this question won't even cross their minds. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Thanks for asking, Kevin. You have clarification and an explanation.
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11616 |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
Arguing the merits and reasoning behind the rule is mostly pointless, but I would appreciate it if they at least worded the rule consistently with their interpretation. They could just switch to "COTS ITEMS from previous FIRST KoPs" and leave the current vague description of custom made for FIRST stuff... Or if they're actually concerned about "leveling the playing field" they could just do the obvious thing and ban all items from previous KoPs, period. A nice, clear, economy stimulating ruling. Not that great for the environment or team finances, but you can't have everything. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
As for items 2 and 3, they could have been clearer about the fine distinction between custom-made-for-FIRST and in the kit, as compared to identical-to-a-custom-FIRST-part and bought commercially. I'm a bit surprised by the rationale for this rule, as well. What's so special about an IFI kit frame, as opposed to all of the other things that FIRST teams accumulate over the years? (Tangible and intangible.) And given that there's no practical way to inspect this, does it really make much sense to make this small distinction? Veterans will either be moderately inconvenienced (they've got a pile of metal they can't use on the robot anymore), or will just ignore this (out of spite or ignorance); either way, there's effectively no enforceability. |
Re: Last year's kit frame
Quote:
Unfortunately, I think you're right. I was surprised too. And I noticed the lack of enforceability right away. It's the FIX-IT Windows all over again. |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:59. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi