Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

You consistently disregard the intent of the rules. You are explicitly trying to increase the friction of the rover wheels to gain an advantage over teams that obey the rule and keep them smooth.

Driving a rover wheel on asphalt is not "normal wear and tear", it is abuse.

Adding friction on purpose is against the rules. Doing it without getting caught is cheating.

Don't do it. Just don't.

A modified rover wheel is illegal. Restoring a wheel to like-new condition after it has been worn due to normal use is permitted. There is no room for debate.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

You are not doing your job correctly.

#1) You are making your team look bad. This hurts your chances down the line.

#2) The GDC has said that the rules should be interpreted with common sense. You are interpreting it with lawyer speak.

#3) You can't modify except through normal wear and tear. This means that you can't modify them except through normal wear and tear. Driving on asphalt is not normal for FIRST robots. Driving on regolith is. There is a big difference.

#4) The fingernail catch is a guideline. If an inspector sees lots of scratches, or catches any with a fingernail, you have to refinish the wheel.

#5) The inspector's job is to verify rules compliance. This means that they have to catch whatever your team missed. Teams deliberately bending the rules to the breaking point is not going to make them any happier. They are humans too, you know. If you come in and say that this was normal wear and tear on a deliberately scuffed wheel, they aren't going to be happy.

#6) You want to increase friction for the wheels within the rules. There is only one legal way to do that. <R06> specifies several methods as illegal. This doesn't mean that there aren't other illegal ones; it simply means that those are called out. The one legal way is normal wear and tear on the regolith or carpet.

#7) If other teams or the refs see increased traction, they can request a reinspection at any time during the competition. This is in the rules.

#8) You will want that sandpaper or whatever it is that Update#5's method calls for.

#9) Chesapeake Regional inspectors, check team 1886 carefully.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I would like to point out a couple of things for your consideration, <R96> and <R97> (regarding inspections) basically say, you can be inspected at any point. So if you do pass an inspection, a subsequent inspection could happen randomly or at the prompting of another team. If you are ever selected for the elimination rounds, you will be certainly re-inspected.

I bring that up to echo a serious point Vikesrock said - as the Strategy/Scouting Mentor for a team at the Chesapeake Regional - It is my subteam's job to determine who we select as an alliance partner for the elimination rounds. One of our "lessons learned" was selecting a team several years ago who was "less than honest" about what they were doing with their robot, and the condition of their robot. We won't let that happen again, if we can avoid it. A team who "bends the rules" or "pushes the envelope" may also be a team who would rather tell another team what they think they want to hear so they will be selected - but then is unable to do perform the job in the quarterfinals, causing the alliance to fail. Our team, at the same regional - several years earlier - had a malfunction of our drive train after our last match, causing our robot to not function properly. Another team selected us during the alliance selections, not knowing we had an issue, we 'graciously declined' the selection. There is more than just trying to "find ways around the rules" at a FIRST competition.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I have not seen any definition that normal is "driving the rover wheels on the regolith surface". Could you please indicate where you get this from? Unless it has been specifically stated somewhere I haven't seen, I would have to disagree with this. "Normal" would be wear and tear gained through driving, but not necessarily on regolith. However, the situation in question (driving on asphalt) would be a violation, as it is not normal wear and tear, but intended to change the wheels to a condition other than their out-of-box normal.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

for the first part of the responce is that i already know that fact. That is why i put "until the next inpection."

as for the second part of the statement that you said; just because they were not honest with you does not mean we are not honest. That is vertually the same thing as a sterotype. I may like to bend the rules but that is because i always like to find ways around and have fun doing that, not because we are so determined to advance that we would lie about the state of our robot to another team. Plainly put i could care less about telling you what you want to hear (and to those teams out there who do it, two words: stuff it). I am head of scouting for our team and i myself hate it when those self-centered teams do that because it is a right pain in the rear everytime. I do value honesty and woundn't force upon an alliance a robot that does't work. So kindly put... stop trying to sterotype people just because they like to mess with the rules.




p.s... please give me that teams number so i can rant at them.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Actually he isn't stereotyping. He is simply relating an experience and the lessons he and his team learned from it. A statement based on actual experience and first-hand knowledge of situations (as his was) is a generalization, not a stereotype. There is nothing wrong with generalizations, and most people use them every day (if your milk smells funny you GENERALIZE that it has gone bad and should not be consumed, because the last time it smelled funny, you drank it and it had soured).

It is also certainly a good idea to watch out for teams who like to "mess with the rules". They are more likely to try something that will get them penalized, disabled, etc, or to be told they have to change something about their robot after a judge decides they messed with the rules just a little too much.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

The next inspection may be after only one match. True, once you are cleared, you can compete until you are re-inspected.

You like to bend the rules and have fun doing it. I wouldn't do that, myself. Under <G44>, the refs can talk to FIRST higher-ups to get input on decisions. I would assume that the inspectors can too, to a point. They have in the past. Throw in the fact that everybody who is a lead in rules enforcement gets trained this year and you have a very consistent definition, plus midweek conversations, so if somebody tries this at a Week 1 event, and the word gets passed around that this is illegal, you'll need to change wheels.

I doubt that you'll get the other team's number. The event was years ago, and there is a distinct chance that nobody on that team would even remember the event. Also, it's a closed case. Why reopen it?

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

erich...
A)fine then.... we can always change it from asphalt to carpet... and i agree with scott about the fact that normal isn't defined anywhere i can find it and is my whole premice for being able to do it in this fasion.

b) if there are other illegal methods then they should list them.

c) as i put before, would would use microscopic scratches and it is not cheating if you bend the rules... it's just making them more flexible.

d) we are not modifying them... we are just "testing" them

p.s. isn't sanding them down cause scratches and incresses friction... because what you are yelling at me for is for a wheel which would be simular to a team's wheel after they have "repaired" it.... in that sence according to you annyone who trys to restore their wheels is therefore also breaking the rules.

p.p.s... erich, my job isn't to make my own team look good, it is to tell the truth and determine ways around the rules without breaking them and in that case commonsence is telling me to use lawyerspeak.



alen...
a)I could really care less about the intent since the intent is not the same as a rule. It is mearly explaining why they made it... not that you accually have to do it.
b) as i said before... they never defined what "normal" is from all that i can tell
c) as i said before, i am not trying to not get caught. I exspect them to inspect it heavly esspecaily with all these teams trying to scare me by saying they will alert to officials about it. Go ahead... ill have all the more fun with it that way. What i am saying , as i have said before, is i'll make it so that the wheels are within the rules cause then u can't say it is cheating.


p.s i have to go outside to shovel so ill continue later

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

How long do YOU want the manual to be? I can think of 5 different ways that probably aren't covered in a short time. If they covered everything, even fewer people would read the manual.

Bending the rules is dangerous. As soon as they break, you're cheating. I think I might see if there are any microscopes available for the Chesapeake Regional inspectors to use[/quote]

Have you ever seen a well-sanded piece of wood, fine-grit sandpaper? There aren't any scratches. I would expect the same thing with the wheels. I am NOT saying that anyone who restores their wheels is breaking the rules. I am saying that anyone who deliberately puts scratches on their wheels is breaking the rules.

Your job is also to not make your team look bad. Lawyerspeak is discouraged around here: I saw a spotlight a few minutes ago that read "Stop being lawyers and start being engineers!" from dlavery.

Really. So the reason you say you can get away with bending the rules is because it isn't a rule that they be as close as possible to "out of the box" condition. I can't wait to see what dlavery says when he sees this one.
In a Q&A that I wasn't able to find, I do believe that they said asphalt isn't normal. Unfortunately, I haven't found it yet.
So what you're saying is that you'll argue with the inspectors until they let your wheels through when you're caught?

If I was inspecting at Chesapeake, I'd probably look at your wheels first AND last.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

*sigh* I guess some do not get it.

By your above posts, it sounds to me that you do not believe you are breaking a rule unless you get caught (by an inspector). I would, therefore, not trust any thing (from you or your team) I could not verify.

In my scouting, there is a catagory called "trust". In this catagory, I rate teams on how much I trust them to tell me the truth about their machine. Because of your posts above your (and by your I mean both you and your team) "trust" number would be "0".

A "0" in trust means that I will not even entertain the option of picking your team. Fortunately for your team, we will not be at Chesepeak.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Your point B: They don't need to. They have very clearly said that there is one, and only one, legal method to restoring the wheels. By definition, any method that is not their one, and only one, method is not the legal method, i.e. it is an illegal method.

C: Microscopic scratches, so small that you can not catch them with your fingernail, would not provide very much traction. Any traction they did provide would be quickly negated through normal wear and tear. However it would still be illegal, as it is a modification to the wheel other than normal wear and tear. Even if a inspector gives it the thumbs up, it is still illegal. They don't certify that a robot is entirely legal, merely that they cannot find anything illegal about it.

D: You have clearly stated that your intentions are to gain more traction with them. You are just doing so using testing as a cover. Intentions matter.

PPS: Unfortunately for you, since the judges have said the rules should be interpreted with common sense, lawyering them is a misinterpretation of the rules, and any conclusion reached thusly would be considered breaking the rules.


A: Intentions do matter in this competition. The mention of intent shows how violations of the rule will be judged.

C: Be wary of 'having fun' with inspectors. They may not feel like playing your games, and can just not pass your robot. And unfortunately for you, if a judge or inspector feels you are violating the intent of the rules, it matters little if, technically, it is within the established boundaries.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

It isn't specifically defined. I state that it is clear (to me, at least) because that is how the game is defined and played. Driving on asphalt or concrete is not at all a part of the game, therefore is not part of the "normal" play of the game, nor "normal" wear and tear to me.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

The only "official" word I've seen, is from Bill's Blog. There may be a Q&A that matches this, but I think we can see, from this post, how FIRST will probably define "normal" wear and tear.

Care and feeding

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Whether or not you want to make your team look good is irrelevant. By continuing to defend your plans to circumvent the rules, you're doing a good job of making your team look bad.

Is the task of finding loopholes one that's been assigned to you by your team leadership, or do you just do it because it's fun? I ask this so I know whether to send negative reputation to you directly, or to your team leaders.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

how many times do i have to say this... i am not trying to evade getting caught. i intend to pass the inspection entirly within the rules. as long as we are not breaking the rules we are not cheating and from what i can interpret of the rules nothing i am doing breaks a rule nor have any of you said anything that could possibly persuade me otherwise. So i'm not going to belive i'm breaking a rule until a FRC representitive can convince me it is breaking a rule in the book and also if that does happen it won't be getting caught because at this point in time i hold no belief that it is breaking any rule so there is nothing to be caught for.

Also it is not defined anywhere in the entire rulebook what is normal. You guys can say it over and over again that driving on ashphalt or concreate isn't normal however that is mearly your opinion and you really have no way to back it up based on the rulebook. in my opinion normal wear and tear is mearly wear and tear that which you get while driving normaly which means we can test it anywhere we want... besides
In addition sanding down the wheel to smooth it down goes against the "normal" wear and tear rule if you try to make the argument that "normal" means driving on regolith or carpet only because the last time i checked... sandpaper is neither. (and i'd be more then happy to start a debate on that)In addition sand paper does make scratches, just because they may be too small to see doesn't mean they are not there. Besides... look at that last picture on the update #5. That wheel is clearly scratched up yet they are saying it is good. Besides... making large scratches really wouldn't do much to incresse friction given the fact that they reduce surface area so the smaller one keep much more surface area of the wheel on the ground. So if you want to bring in a microscope to judge... be my guest... all the rest of the teams that sanded their wheels will also fail as well if you try and use that attitude.

As for arguing with the refs... i won't be arguing.... i'll mearly be debating with them. I am using my common sense because fankly.... there is nothin against it in the rules... and because it makes perfect sense to me to use it and in the end commonsense comes down to individual interpreation of the meaning of commonsence. And i will leave it to the guys in the garage to be the enginners... that's their job.

as for trust... am i not already telling you about my machine?

and in the way of not getting passed by the inspectors... all we have to do is switch wheels and try again if they are as hardpressed as u guys are.