Chief Delphi - <R06> normal wear and tear

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Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

who ever said i cared about how good it looks alan? The job of finding loopholes was given to me by my leaders for the past two years. (Although it is still quite fun.) As such i will do it to the best of my abillitys and i will never give up on trying to get around the rules.
As for reputation; I don't really care for reputation at all. i really could care less about your negitive rep because if i actually did care i would have stoped this debate a while back. Personaly if you are having to resort to such threats then i will laugh all the harder at the fact that you are willing to go that far just to get your way. The last time i checked there is a little thing called freedom of speech. I have not called you names nor did anything vulger, i was mearly giving you my take on the rules and putting it in a dissussion, or has the freedom of speech been taken away too?
you have had every chance just to walk away so if you are getting annoyed it is your own fault for staying. If you hate the fact that you arn't winning me over, then walk away.

So go ahead and try... just remember they arn't laughing with you.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

I think people like Alan are saying that you should care how you are making your team look. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying my perception of team 1886 has changed for the worse. I do feel bad for the rest of your team who do not share your views but are being affected by them.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

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Originally Posted by Urban Hawk (Post 809054)

That's only because we aren't laughing. We DO agree with him.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

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Originally Posted by Urban Hawk (Post 809047)

how many times do i have to say this... i am not trying to evade getting caught. i intend to pass the inspection entirly within the rules. as long as we are not breaking the rules we are not cheating and from what i can interpret of the rules nothing i am doing breaks a rule nor have any of you said anything that could possibly persuade me otherwise. So i'm not going to belive i'm breaking a rule until a FRC representitive can convince me it is breaking a rule in the book and also if that does happen it won't be getting caught because at this point in time i hold no belief that it is breaking any rule so there is nothing to be caught for.

I have NEVER seen someone this determined to skirt legality. The inspectors are FRC representatives, and I'm fairly certain some of them have replied. I could bring a robot onto the field and legally tip over another robot. Is that cheating, yes. Is it breaking a rule? Probably, but not definitely. (There are some situations where a robot tips accidentally.)

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Also it is not defined anywhere in the entire rulebook what is normal. You guys can say it over and over again that driving on ashphalt or concreate isn't normal however that is mearly your opinion and you really have no way to back it up based on the rulebook. in my opinion normal wear and tear is mearly wear and tear that which you get while driving normaly which means we can test it anywhere we want...

See Bill's Blog. Is that official? No. However, it does give a baseline. Any wheel that has been driven on asphalt is no longer useable until it has been refurbished according to Update #5.

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besides
In addition sanding down the wheel to smooth it down goes against the "normal" wear and tear rule if you try to make the argument that "normal" means driving on regolith or carpet only because the last time i checked... sandpaper is neither. (and i'd be more then happy to start a debate on that)In addition sand paper does make scratches, just because they may be too small to see doesn't mean they are not there. Besides... look at that last picture on the update #5. That wheel is clearly scratched up yet they are saying it is good. Besides... making large scratches really wouldn't do much to incresse friction given the fact that they reduce surface area so the smaller one keep much more surface area of the wheel on the ground. So if you want to bring in a microscope to judge... be my guest... all the rest of the teams that sanded their wheels will also fail as well if you try and use that attitude.

If it goes against that rule, why do they tell us to use it?

The last picture on Update #5 shows a section of normally-used wheel after being cleaned. The cleaned portion (as you would have noticed if you hadn't been actively looking for ways to get around the rules) is the portion that is good.

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As for arguing with the refs... i won't be arguing.... i'll mearly be debating with them. I am using my common sense because fankly.... there is nothin against it in the rules... and because it makes perfect sense to me to use it and in the end commonsense comes down to individual interpreation of the meaning of commonsence. And i will leave it to the guys in the garage to be the enginners... that's their job.

as for trust... am i not already telling you about my machine?

and in the way of not getting passed by the inspectors... all we have to do is switch wheels and try again if they are as hardpressed as u guys are.

You won't be arguing with the refs. You'll be arguing with inspectors. And the FTA. Lawyers don't use common sense.

As for trust, you are telling us that you intend to exploit a loophole that isn't there. What's to say that you won't try that elsewhere?

Just switch wheels. It'll save you a lot of time later.

And you're right, they aren't laughing with Alan. They're either telling him he's a liar, or they're telling you to back down. We do have the freedom of speech, but in case you hadn't noticed, a certain governor is under trial for talking about doing something illegal, even though he apparently didn't actually do it (yet).

If you have the job of finding loopholes, then I think your team leaders need to think about the image that projects. You just ruined your own reputation with others. Saying that your team leaders assigned you to find ways to skirt the rules ruins your team's reputation with other teams. This reduces your chances of getting picked.

If you aren't going to give up on trying to get around the rules, then this discussion will go nowhere and I now tender a request to the moderators: Lock this thread.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

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Originally Posted by Urban Hawk (Post 808983)

erich...
A)fine then.... we can always change it from asphalt to carpet... and i agree with scott about the fact that normal isn't defined anywhere i can find it and is my whole premice for being able to do it in this fasion.

b) if there are other illegal methods then they should list them.

c) as i put before, would would use microscopic scratches and it is not cheating if you bend the rules... it's just making them more flexible.

d) we are not modifying them... we are just "testing" them

p.s. isn't sanding them down cause scratches and incresses friction... because what you are yelling at me for is for a wheel which would be simular to a team's wheel after they have "repaired" it.... in that sence according to you annyone who trys to restore their wheels is therefore also breaking the rules.

p.p.s... erich, my job isn't to make my own team look good, it is to tell the truth and determine ways around the rules without breaking them and in that case commonsence is telling me to use lawyerspeak.

alen...
a)I could really care less about the intent since the intent is not the same as a rule. It is mearly explaining why they made it... not that you accually have to do it.
b) as i said before... they never defined what "normal" is from all that i can tell
c) as i said before, i am not trying to not get caught. I exspect them to inspect it heavly esspecaily with all these teams trying to scare me by saying they will alert to officials about it. Go ahead... ill have all the more fun with it that way. What i am saying , as i have said before, is i'll make it so that the wheels are within the rules cause then u can't say it is cheating.

p.s i have to go outside to shovel so ill continue later

Congratulations, you have succeeded in making yourself and your team look like a bunch of cheaters.

I'm sure the rest of your team does not share your arrogance and blatant disregard for the rules, but that won't stop teams from remembering your posts when it comes time for alliance pairings.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

i already know what he is trying to tell me and he is no closer to making me give up then the sun going out. I will continue to go against because of the fact that he is so determined to undermine the process of discussion with ill concieved threats. As for me making my team look bad is mearly your point of view. It is your determination for me not to win that is making you see me like that because i am mearly bringing up the point that under what is stated in the rules, i can scratch it up and still be in the rules. Yet saying that i'm making my team look bad when he is trying to threaten me is kind of ironic.

although atleast erich is starting to catch on to what ive been saying with his first three posts.

P.S. I already know how to exploit loopholes elsewhere..... just like in the bumper thread.:)

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

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Originally Posted by Urban Hawk (Post 809089)

i already know what he is trying to tell me and he is no closer to making me give up then the sun going out. I will continue to go against because of the fact that he is so determined to undermine the process of discussion with ill concieved threats. As for me making my team look bad is mearly your point of view. It is your determination for me not to win that is making you see me like that because i am mearly bringing up the point that under what is stated in the rules, i can scratch it up and still be in the rules. Yet saying that i'm making my team look bad when he is trying to threaten me is kind of ironic.

Good teams don't need to cheat to win. I don't have any determination to see you not win-I know your attitude is going to preclude you from winning in the first place.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

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Originally Posted by Urban Hawk (Post 809089)

although atleast erich is starting to catch on to what ive been saying with his first three posts.

I'm catching on all right. I'm catching that YOU are going to push the rules until they break! This is NOT the spirit of FIRST. Would your grandmother be proud?

I also repeat my call for the thread to be closed, as this discussion is getting nowhere.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

This was a fun discussion but now its turning more of a fight and i am getting rather bored messing with you guys. it was fun to watch you guys fight over a non existant problem...:)

p.s. wooooooot.... i'm infamous!

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear

This has run its course. Being antagonistic is a waste of everyone's time, as is talking to a wall. Go build robots.