<R06> normal wear and tear
 

in rule <R06> it says "The surface tread of the ROVER WHEELS may not be modified except through normal wear-and-tear." does this mean we can put it on a really fast moter and just normally grind it on something to get grooves on it which would make more traction?

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

1 will this end up helping w the grip?
sorry we haven't tried the wheels yet btw..

umm also according to this line i dont think what you are thinking of doing will work because:

The intent of this rule is that the ROVER WHEELS be used in as close to their “out of the box” condition as possible, to provide the intended low-friction dynamic performance during the game

as close to their out of the box condition as possible, so by doing that you are violating that rule arent you?

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

ic ah yeah your right my bad

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Either way, I'm not sure that doing that intentionally would be considered "normal wear and tear" although it may look like it (difficult to prove... don't do it). Also, through your method, it sounds like you would be breaking the following in the same rule

You'd somewhat be "carving" it and by the word "grind" you're at least applying an abrasive material.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Right but what if our team's testing area only consists of a back room rough concreate floor that doesnt get much wear and tear, leaving it highly abrasive?

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

hehe EXACTLY!!!! that would be classified as "wear"

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Normal wear and tear would, to me, be just what you'd get from driving around on something that is close to the field surface. If you show up at an event I'm at and you aren't exhibiting the typical properties of the wheels, I *might* talk to the inspectors. I have no idea of the wear characteristics, so I'm not sure it'll be easy to spot.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I wonder if maybe the inspectors will go around giving teams replacement wheels if they deem there is too much wear on the current ones. Considering they made people use these wheels, they ought to be providing replacements at the competitions.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I honestly think that if you know you are going to have to drive around on a rough surface and it might scuff up the wheels, you should buy a second set of wheels and change them out before ship. That will be the only way to ensure that your wheels are close to out of the box.

Remember it is each team's own responsibility to comply with the rules, and if you don't you are at risk of not being able to play. Honestly I would rather be changing my weels to a new set at my shop before ship then in my pit on Thursday night so I can pass inspection.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I think normal wear and tear would constitute a layer of small scratches and that would be it. it would be pretty easy to tell if these wheels were used to do burnouts on an asphalt surface to an inspector, imo.

also, it would appear as if what you are saying is in violation of the nature of the rule, as it is there to provide the intended low gravity dynamic.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Come on guys, don't modify the wheels. The rules state no modifications to the wheels and "ALMOST NEW WHEELS".

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I'm not concerned too much with people purposely modifying the wheels, but what if you are competing in three or four competitions and your wheels are excessively worn down? Are the inspectors going to call you on it? If they do, and you have to change your wheels will they provide you with replacements?

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I wonder if replacement wheels will be available at regionals in case of unexpected wear and teams don't have their own extras.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I really don't think modifying your wheels through any sort of semantics related to "normal wear-and-tear" would be Gracious Professionalism. You know what the rules are meant to do (make it so you don't modify your wheels to an advantage) and you shouldn't subvert that.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Alright, yes, teams could, in theory, go drive their robots on the road outside their building to scuff up the wheels and call it "normal wear and tear". It's up the every team to follow the rules, there's a million ways around this rule and none fall anywhere under "gracious professionalism".

That said, does scuffing up the wheels actually help anything? Assuming the competition floor is completley flat (no gouges, grooves, etc.) then there would be nothing for the scuffs on the wheel to interlock with. Thus, all that could possibly propel the robot would be frictional forces, which are surface area independent (i.e. roughing up the wheels won't help.) Am I missing something?

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

there was a short discussion by one of the "nerds" on our team who wanted to mount 4 wifi cards changing the band from broad to narrow to aim it at the wheels in effect heating them expanding the material just barely making it softer and grippier....


cause that would be legal....

i wouldn't be surprised to see lots of robots with black asphalt scuffed wheels...

i also wouldn't be surprised to see lots of robots forced to put on new wheels to get onto the playing field

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I'm sure that FIRST will eventually define the inspector's role in this. It may be empirical or subjective. We just don't know yet.

I am sure that, if your wheels have embedded contaminates which scuff the field, the FTA will likely prohibit you from competing until the problem is resolved (as per <G30>).

I would guess that's a big no.

I would follow Greg's advice above. If you are going to practice on a rough surface, purchase spares and bring them to the competition.

Regards,

Mike

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Where could we buy spare wheels for the competition?

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

You might be able to get a little more traction if you jerk the bot back and forth to accelerate wear and tear. At the beginning of the season I suggest running the bot on blocks and holding sand paper to it (as a joke we're not actually doing it).

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

http://AndyMark.biz

You'll probably have to restore the tread surface if you do that.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

what we are planning to do is get a second set of wheels and then use this "technique" to get some more friction on the wheels. that way if the wheels get rejected at the competition all we have to so is switch em out with the second set. If they don't then we can play with em. Thats the easiest way to figure out if it breaks a rule because in the end it comes down to the judges to determine if it does. And if you for some reason do get in trouble for the wheels during competition then it is the judges fault for letting you do it.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I'm sorry, but this mindset is not a good one. It's NOT the judges' fault!

#1: Read the intent of <R06>, stated in the rule. What part of "out of the box" do you not understand? Also see Update #5.

#2: The judges do not determine compliance with the rules. The inspectors and refs do. The inspectors would keep you off the field.

#3: It isn't the inspectors and refs' fault if you do something illegal and they catch you, it's yours.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

1) if you read it carefully it says "the intent of this rule"... that means that they are explaining the reasion behind the rule.... however they are not specificly saying that you can't since it isn't a direct order.

2)sorry.. i meant the inspectors...


3) it is their job to make sure that your robot meets the rules so if they allow it then that means you can't later get in trouble for it since they did let you compeate with them on and since you made no modifcations to them since they were last inspected. And as i said... you can always take em off and put the other set on if they don't meet standards.


p.s. the only thing on update 5 that has to do with wheels is how to repair damaged wheels.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

This is just plain not true. It is YOUR job to make sure your robot meets the rules. It is their job to check that your robot does indeed meet the rules before it is allowed to compete.

Intentionally modifying the rover wheels in any way in an effort to gain more traction (unless restoring the original surface increases traction) is explicitly against the rules. There is nothing gracious or professional about cheating with the hope of not getting caught.

Remember that when you post here you represent your team whether you like it or not. Any team at the Chesapeake Regional that has members on CD will now likely be keeping a close eye on your traction and will surely ask inspectors to examine your wheels if something seems amiss. If I were at that regional I would have to have a talk with some of your team members and mentors before I even thought about putting you on my selection list.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I think I'll let some Championship inspectors deal with this one. You see, teams have competed in 1+ regionals, then gotten to the Championship and found that they were illegal. They made no modifications. Any questions?

And the reason I referenced Update #5 is precisely because it tells how to repair damaged wheels.

With regards to the intent of the rule, it says it in the rule, therefore it is either a) part of the rule or b) an explanatory note. If it is an explanatory note, then you may still want to pay attention. What part of a Supreme Court ruling gets the most attention? It's not the ruling itself, it's the reasons for the ruling.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

<R08>: "The surface tread of the ROVER WHEELS may not be modified except through normal wear-and-tear."

What part of "may not" do you not understand?

Intentionally modifying the wheel and then trying to pass it off as "normal" is specifically against both the letter and spirit of the rule.

I agree with other posters, your comments have specifically set your team up as a target. You'd better have pristine condition wheels on your robot or someone will remember this and you'll fail inspection.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

The Team Update material gives teams who have unintentionally scuffed their wheels to return them to as near "out of the box" condition as possible. Checking the wheels for wear and any possible change in the coefficient of friction will be a line item on the Inspection Checklist. (Watch for it soon on a First website near you!) The inspectors are trained to look for certain anamolies that may give a team an advantage or cause playing field damage. Two methods are suggested in the team update to correct issues for teams that practice on surfaces other than the regolith. Inspectors and refs are charged with insuring each team plays with a robot that meets spec and all that that implies. There may be problems that the prescribed method cannot correct. Replacement may be the only option in those cases. Be prepared.
Inspectors meet on a phone conference each Monday night to discuss these and other issues and to try and make inspections uniform around the world. These conferences begin before the first event.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

That is highly debatable. A lot of people don't care much about the explanation, only whether their side won or not. And people tend to forget the explanation, and only remember the actual ruling in the long run. Reasons are important primarily for people who have to use those rulings to make other decisions (lawyers, judges, politicians), as opposed to everyday people.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

It's my job on the team to find ways around the rules (yet be within the rules) and im just doing my job, besides the fact i love a good debate; even if it on things that may never occur.

Gary...
in that section of the rule they key word is except. That means that you can't modify them UNLESS it is done through normal wear and tear. As long as it is done through the method which they stated it is then perfectly legal under that perticular rule. All we have do to is test our robot by driving it on something like asphalt and it will be legal. If it is too rough we can always sand it down to smooth it out a bit.

besides the fact that the ruling is also dependent on the fact of how much it is done on the wheel. We dont need to massacre the wheel to give it friction. As put by update #5 as long as the fingernail doesn't catch it's not too rough. That means we can add a slight amount of extra friction on each wheel (so that all to gether the friction will add up) yet still be in the rules. (thank you erich for pointing that out to me)
all that we need to do is create the smaller more microscopic scratches on it which will help create friction yet will pass inspection because they will be "close to their 'out of the box' condition." even sanding the wheels to try to smooth it out all the way will still always create scratches.



vike...
the inspectors job is to check and make sure your robot follows the rules (as i said before) yet they are also therefore representitives for FRC so what they say goes. Also as AL said "Checking the wheels for wear and any possible change in the coefficient of friction will be a line item on the Inspection Checklist." I already know that fact and that means that i am not planning on trying to get the wheels past them without examination or without their approval. I am counting on them doing it. I am planning to make it so that i can incresse friction for the wheels yet be within the rules so that for reasion it won't be cheating if i do it. If the inspectors let you perticipate with those wheels then for that specific competition you will be fine to use em untill you get another inspection. There they can redetermine if they are in compliance with the rules. However in these situations the worse they can do to you is make you change the wheels.
but as i said before i will make sure that the wheels are within rules so i won't have to worry about that.

although i will have to keep in mind what you said because i like your idea about restoring the original surface to increase traction. ill keep that in mind...it will be a great way to get it to as close as possible to out of the box yet incresse friction at the same time. :)





besides... if you do point us out ill be sure to have a fun debate with them over the rule.:)



p.s...this is a fun debate

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

No - the "normal" part of "normal wear and tear" indicates that you are using the wheels in a normal way - "normal" for this year's game is pretty clearly defined as "driving the rover wheels on the regolith surface".

You really are making yourself look bad here, by obviously trying to find ways to cheat.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

You consistently disregard the intent of the rules. You are explicitly trying to increase the friction of the rover wheels to gain an advantage over teams that obey the rule and keep them smooth.

Driving a rover wheel on asphalt is not "normal wear and tear", it is abuse.

Adding friction on purpose is against the rules. Doing it without getting caught is cheating.

Don't do it. Just don't.

A modified rover wheel is illegal. Restoring a wheel to like-new condition after it has been worn due to normal use is permitted. There is no room for debate.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

You are not doing your job correctly.

#1) You are making your team look bad. This hurts your chances down the line.

#2) The GDC has said that the rules should be interpreted with common sense. You are interpreting it with lawyer speak.

#3) You can't modify except through normal wear and tear. This means that you can't modify them except through normal wear and tear. Driving on asphalt is not normal for FIRST robots. Driving on regolith is. There is a big difference.

#4) The fingernail catch is a guideline. If an inspector sees lots of scratches, or catches any with a fingernail, you have to refinish the wheel.

#5) The inspector's job is to verify rules compliance. This means that they have to catch whatever your team missed. Teams deliberately bending the rules to the breaking point is not going to make them any happier. They are humans too, you know. If you come in and say that this was normal wear and tear on a deliberately scuffed wheel, they aren't going to be happy.

#6) You want to increase friction for the wheels within the rules. There is only one legal way to do that. <R06> specifies several methods as illegal. This doesn't mean that there aren't other illegal ones; it simply means that those are called out. The one legal way is normal wear and tear on the regolith or carpet.

#7) If other teams or the refs see increased traction, they can request a reinspection at any time during the competition. This is in the rules.

#8) You will want that sandpaper or whatever it is that Update#5's method calls for.

#9) Chesapeake Regional inspectors, check team 1886 carefully.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I would like to point out a couple of things for your consideration, <R96> and <R97> (regarding inspections) basically say, you can be inspected at any point. So if you do pass an inspection, a subsequent inspection could happen randomly or at the prompting of another team. If you are ever selected for the elimination rounds, you will be certainly re-inspected.

I bring that up to echo a serious point Vikesrock said - as the Strategy/Scouting Mentor for a team at the Chesapeake Regional - It is my subteam's job to determine who we select as an alliance partner for the elimination rounds. One of our "lessons learned" was selecting a team several years ago who was "less than honest" about what they were doing with their robot, and the condition of their robot. We won't let that happen again, if we can avoid it. A team who "bends the rules" or "pushes the envelope" may also be a team who would rather tell another team what they think they want to hear so they will be selected - but then is unable to do perform the job in the quarterfinals, causing the alliance to fail. Our team, at the same regional - several years earlier - had a malfunction of our drive train after our last match, causing our robot to not function properly. Another team selected us during the alliance selections, not knowing we had an issue, we 'graciously declined' the selection. There is more than just trying to "find ways around the rules" at a FIRST competition.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I have not seen any definition that normal is "driving the rover wheels on the regolith surface". Could you please indicate where you get this from? Unless it has been specifically stated somewhere I haven't seen, I would have to disagree with this. "Normal" would be wear and tear gained through driving, but not necessarily on regolith. However, the situation in question (driving on asphalt) would be a violation, as it is not normal wear and tear, but intended to change the wheels to a condition other than their out-of-box normal.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

for the first part of the responce is that i already know that fact. That is why i put "until the next inpection."

as for the second part of the statement that you said; just because they were not honest with you does not mean we are not honest. That is vertually the same thing as a sterotype. I may like to bend the rules but that is because i always like to find ways around and have fun doing that, not because we are so determined to advance that we would lie about the state of our robot to another team. Plainly put i could care less about telling you what you want to hear (and to those teams out there who do it, two words: stuff it). I am head of scouting for our team and i myself hate it when those self-centered teams do that because it is a right pain in the rear everytime. I do value honesty and woundn't force upon an alliance a robot that does't work. So kindly put... stop trying to sterotype people just because they like to mess with the rules.




p.s... please give me that teams number so i can rant at them.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Actually he isn't stereotyping. He is simply relating an experience and the lessons he and his team learned from it. A statement based on actual experience and first-hand knowledge of situations (as his was) is a generalization, not a stereotype. There is nothing wrong with generalizations, and most people use them every day (if your milk smells funny you GENERALIZE that it has gone bad and should not be consumed, because the last time it smelled funny, you drank it and it had soured).

It is also certainly a good idea to watch out for teams who like to "mess with the rules". They are more likely to try something that will get them penalized, disabled, etc, or to be told they have to change something about their robot after a judge decides they messed with the rules just a little too much.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

The next inspection may be after only one match. True, once you are cleared, you can compete until you are re-inspected.

You like to bend the rules and have fun doing it. I wouldn't do that, myself. Under <G44>, the refs can talk to FIRST higher-ups to get input on decisions. I would assume that the inspectors can too, to a point. They have in the past. Throw in the fact that everybody who is a lead in rules enforcement gets trained this year and you have a very consistent definition, plus midweek conversations, so if somebody tries this at a Week 1 event, and the word gets passed around that this is illegal, you'll need to change wheels.

I doubt that you'll get the other team's number. The event was years ago, and there is a distinct chance that nobody on that team would even remember the event. Also, it's a closed case. Why reopen it?

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

erich...
A)fine then.... we can always change it from asphalt to carpet... and i agree with scott about the fact that normal isn't defined anywhere i can find it and is my whole premice for being able to do it in this fasion.

b) if there are other illegal methods then they should list them.

c) as i put before, would would use microscopic scratches and it is not cheating if you bend the rules... it's just making them more flexible.

d) we are not modifying them... we are just "testing" them

p.s. isn't sanding them down cause scratches and incresses friction... because what you are yelling at me for is for a wheel which would be simular to a team's wheel after they have "repaired" it.... in that sence according to you annyone who trys to restore their wheels is therefore also breaking the rules.

p.p.s... erich, my job isn't to make my own team look good, it is to tell the truth and determine ways around the rules without breaking them and in that case commonsence is telling me to use lawyerspeak.



alen...
a)I could really care less about the intent since the intent is not the same as a rule. It is mearly explaining why they made it... not that you accually have to do it.
b) as i said before... they never defined what "normal" is from all that i can tell
c) as i said before, i am not trying to not get caught. I exspect them to inspect it heavly esspecaily with all these teams trying to scare me by saying they will alert to officials about it. Go ahead... ill have all the more fun with it that way. What i am saying , as i have said before, is i'll make it so that the wheels are within the rules cause then u can't say it is cheating.


p.s i have to go outside to shovel so ill continue later

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

How long do YOU want the manual to be? I can think of 5 different ways that probably aren't covered in a short time. If they covered everything, even fewer people would read the manual.

Bending the rules is dangerous. As soon as they break, you're cheating. I think I might see if there are any microscopes available for the Chesapeake Regional inspectors to use[/quote]

Have you ever seen a well-sanded piece of wood, fine-grit sandpaper? There aren't any scratches. I would expect the same thing with the wheels. I am NOT saying that anyone who restores their wheels is breaking the rules. I am saying that anyone who deliberately puts scratches on their wheels is breaking the rules.

Your job is also to not make your team look bad. Lawyerspeak is discouraged around here: I saw a spotlight a few minutes ago that read "Stop being lawyers and start being engineers!" from dlavery.

Really. So the reason you say you can get away with bending the rules is because it isn't a rule that they be as close as possible to "out of the box" condition. I can't wait to see what dlavery says when he sees this one.
In a Q&A that I wasn't able to find, I do believe that they said asphalt isn't normal. Unfortunately, I haven't found it yet.
So what you're saying is that you'll argue with the inspectors until they let your wheels through when you're caught?

If I was inspecting at Chesapeake, I'd probably look at your wheels first AND last.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

*sigh* I guess some do not get it.

By your above posts, it sounds to me that you do not believe you are breaking a rule unless you get caught (by an inspector). I would, therefore, not trust any thing (from you or your team) I could not verify.

In my scouting, there is a catagory called "trust". In this catagory, I rate teams on how much I trust them to tell me the truth about their machine. Because of your posts above your (and by your I mean both you and your team) "trust" number would be "0".

A "0" in trust means that I will not even entertain the option of picking your team. Fortunately for your team, we will not be at Chesepeak.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Your point B: They don't need to. They have very clearly said that there is one, and only one, legal method to restoring the wheels. By definition, any method that is not their one, and only one, method is not the legal method, i.e. it is an illegal method.

C: Microscopic scratches, so small that you can not catch them with your fingernail, would not provide very much traction. Any traction they did provide would be quickly negated through normal wear and tear. However it would still be illegal, as it is a modification to the wheel other than normal wear and tear. Even if a inspector gives it the thumbs up, it is still illegal. They don't certify that a robot is entirely legal, merely that they cannot find anything illegal about it.

D: You have clearly stated that your intentions are to gain more traction with them. You are just doing so using testing as a cover. Intentions matter.

PPS: Unfortunately for you, since the judges have said the rules should be interpreted with common sense, lawyering them is a misinterpretation of the rules, and any conclusion reached thusly would be considered breaking the rules.


A: Intentions do matter in this competition. The mention of intent shows how violations of the rule will be judged.

C: Be wary of 'having fun' with inspectors. They may not feel like playing your games, and can just not pass your robot. And unfortunately for you, if a judge or inspector feels you are violating the intent of the rules, it matters little if, technically, it is within the established boundaries.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

It isn't specifically defined. I state that it is clear (to me, at least) because that is how the game is defined and played. Driving on asphalt or concrete is not at all a part of the game, therefore is not part of the "normal" play of the game, nor "normal" wear and tear to me.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

The only "official" word I've seen, is from Bill's Blog. There may be a Q&A that matches this, but I think we can see, from this post, how FIRST will probably define "normal" wear and tear.

Care and feeding

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Whether or not you want to make your team look good is irrelevant. By continuing to defend your plans to circumvent the rules, you're doing a good job of making your team look bad.

Is the task of finding loopholes one that's been assigned to you by your team leadership, or do you just do it because it's fun? I ask this so I know whether to send negative reputation to you directly, or to your team leaders.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

how many times do i have to say this... i am not trying to evade getting caught. i intend to pass the inspection entirly within the rules. as long as we are not breaking the rules we are not cheating and from what i can interpret of the rules nothing i am doing breaks a rule nor have any of you said anything that could possibly persuade me otherwise. So i'm not going to belive i'm breaking a rule until a FRC representitive can convince me it is breaking a rule in the book and also if that does happen it won't be getting caught because at this point in time i hold no belief that it is breaking any rule so there is nothing to be caught for.

Also it is not defined anywhere in the entire rulebook what is normal. You guys can say it over and over again that driving on ashphalt or concreate isn't normal however that is mearly your opinion and you really have no way to back it up based on the rulebook. in my opinion normal wear and tear is mearly wear and tear that which you get while driving normaly which means we can test it anywhere we want... besides
In addition sanding down the wheel to smooth it down goes against the "normal" wear and tear rule if you try to make the argument that "normal" means driving on regolith or carpet only because the last time i checked... sandpaper is neither. (and i'd be more then happy to start a debate on that)In addition sand paper does make scratches, just because they may be too small to see doesn't mean they are not there. Besides... look at that last picture on the update #5. That wheel is clearly scratched up yet they are saying it is good. Besides... making large scratches really wouldn't do much to incresse friction given the fact that they reduce surface area so the smaller one keep much more surface area of the wheel on the ground. So if you want to bring in a microscope to judge... be my guest... all the rest of the teams that sanded their wheels will also fail as well if you try and use that attitude.

As for arguing with the refs... i won't be arguing.... i'll mearly be debating with them. I am using my common sense because fankly.... there is nothin against it in the rules... and because it makes perfect sense to me to use it and in the end commonsense comes down to individual interpreation of the meaning of commonsence. And i will leave it to the guys in the garage to be the enginners... that's their job.

as for trust... am i not already telling you about my machine?

and in the way of not getting passed by the inspectors... all we have to do is switch wheels and try again if they are as hardpressed as u guys are.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

who ever said i cared about how good it looks alan? The job of finding loopholes was given to me by my leaders for the past two years. (Although it is still quite fun.) As such i will do it to the best of my abillitys and i will never give up on trying to get around the rules.
As for reputation; I don't really care for reputation at all. i really could care less about your negitive rep because if i actually did care i would have stoped this debate a while back. Personaly if you are having to resort to such threats then i will laugh all the harder at the fact that you are willing to go that far just to get your way. The last time i checked there is a little thing called freedom of speech. I have not called you names nor did anything vulger, i was mearly giving you my take on the rules and putting it in a dissussion, or has the freedom of speech been taken away too?
you have had every chance just to walk away so if you are getting annoyed it is your own fault for staying. If you hate the fact that you arn't winning me over, then walk away.

So go ahead and try... just remember they arn't laughing with you.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I think people like Alan are saying that you should care how you are making your team look. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying my perception of team 1886 has changed for the worse. I do feel bad for the rest of your team who do not share your views but are being affected by them.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

That's only because we aren't laughing. We DO agree with him.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I have NEVER seen someone this determined to skirt legality. The inspectors are FRC representatives, and I'm fairly certain some of them have replied. I could bring a robot onto the field and legally tip over another robot. Is that cheating, yes. Is it breaking a rule? Probably, but not definitely. (There are some situations where a robot tips accidentally.)

See Bill's Blog. Is that official? No. However, it does give a baseline. Any wheel that has been driven on asphalt is no longer useable until it has been refurbished according to Update #5.

If it goes against that rule, why do they tell us to use it?

The last picture on Update #5 shows a section of normally-used wheel after being cleaned. The cleaned portion (as you would have noticed if you hadn't been actively looking for ways to get around the rules) is the portion that is good.

You won't be arguing with the refs. You'll be arguing with inspectors. And the FTA. Lawyers don't use common sense.

As for trust, you are telling us that you intend to exploit a loophole that isn't there. What's to say that you won't try that elsewhere?

Just switch wheels. It'll save you a lot of time later.

And you're right, they aren't laughing with Alan. They're either telling him he's a liar, or they're telling you to back down. We do have the freedom of speech, but in case you hadn't noticed, a certain governor is under trial for talking about doing something illegal, even though he apparently didn't actually do it (yet).

If you have the job of finding loopholes, then I think your team leaders need to think about the image that projects. You just ruined your own reputation with others. Saying that your team leaders assigned you to find ways to skirt the rules ruins your team's reputation with other teams. This reduces your chances of getting picked.

If you aren't going to give up on trying to get around the rules, then this discussion will go nowhere and I now tender a request to the moderators: Lock this thread.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Congratulations, you have succeeded in making yourself and your team look like a bunch of cheaters.

I'm sure the rest of your team does not share your arrogance and blatant disregard for the rules, but that won't stop teams from remembering your posts when it comes time for alliance pairings.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

i already know what he is trying to tell me and he is no closer to making me give up then the sun going out. I will continue to go against because of the fact that he is so determined to undermine the process of discussion with ill concieved threats. As for me making my team look bad is mearly your point of view. It is your determination for me not to win that is making you see me like that because i am mearly bringing up the point that under what is stated in the rules, i can scratch it up and still be in the rules. Yet saying that i'm making my team look bad when he is trying to threaten me is kind of ironic.


although atleast erich is starting to catch on to what ive been saying with his first three posts.


P.S. I already know how to exploit loopholes elsewhere..... just like in the bumper thread.:)

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

Good teams don't need to cheat to win. I don't have any determination to see you not win-I know your attitude is going to preclude you from winning in the first place.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

I'm catching on all right. I'm catching that YOU are going to push the rules until they break! This is NOT the spirit of FIRST. Would your grandmother be proud?

I also repeat my call for the thread to be closed, as this discussion is getting nowhere.

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

This was a fun discussion but now its turning more of a fight and i am getting rather bored messing with you guys. it was fun to watch you guys fight over a non existant problem...:)


p.s. wooooooot.... i'm infamous!

Re: <R06> normal wear and tear
 

This has run its course. Being antagonistic is a waste of everyone's time, as is talking to a wall. Go build robots.