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Re: Limitations too far?
Should innovation and new challenges be sacrificed so that the teams who compete successfully in the robot competition be able to continue competing successfully in robot competitions because the basics remain familiar or the same? Is it important that veterans stay within a certain comfort zone? Is that what engineers do? Is that what scientists do? Is that why there are continued breakthroughs in science and new technologies? Why do people keep buying the latest in cell phones? To call someone? Or, to be able to use new features like submitting bar codes for searches?
I get very confused when we pick and choose what is ok and what is not ok in this community that places value on inspiration, innovation, creativity, engineering, and challenge. Esp. the first few days after Kickoff for the new season. |
Re: Limitations too far?
The only problem I really have with the design rules are the no descoring rule and the nothing outside the bumper perimeter rule. I separate descoring an allies trailer from blocking your own, however. I agree that teams shouldn't be able to block their own goals, but It would have been awesome if you could empty out an allied goal. The game would constantly go back and forth, it would be crazy.
And as far as I can think, the bumper perimeter rule means the only physically effective way to score is to launch the cells. I see no other option, unless maybe you have absolutely perfect control of your robot, as though driving on carpet. You can't get close enough to use any kind of dumper. I also fear we will see a huge number of boxes on wheels. I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong, of course. I suspect the top teams will still be awesome, but I don't think there will be as many as usual. |
Re: Limitations too far?
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I figure I've seen over 740 FRC robots in person over the past six years, and several hundred more on webcasts, the Blue Alliance, etc. The only ones that have been the same were the very few that were intentionally built to be "twins" or "triplets"... and even then there were tiny little differences. You are right that the top teams will still be awesome, but not because of some divinely inspired awesomeness that only they can posess. The top teams are top teams because of the people on those teams. If you want to beat 1114 all you have to do is work harder and smarter (all year round for several years). Either that or wait for the occasional match where they break down. They are only moderately dangerous when they are sitting still! Jason |
Re: Limitations too far?
While I have heard a lot of complaints about this year’s game and it restraints, I would like to point out that this year’s game is going to allow every team, new and old to learn something new, and isn’t this one of the things FIRST wants us to do. It is true that veteran teams have been able to design very affective drive trains in the past few years because the playing surface has not changed. By changing the playing surface, as well as restricting the use of the different wheels, FIRST has forced every team to be innovative and learn in the process.
As for the restrictions, I have found that the engineering field always has restrictions or constraints of some kind. Actually, I have found that designing a robot for a FIRST competition is one of the more open ended chanlleges that you can undertake. With this said, in my opinion, the restrictions that FIRST have put in place are there to promote new and creative designs, insure that a team does not gain an unfair advantage except through creative design, for safety reasons, and so that all the robots can properly interact with certain field elements ( i.e. the trailer or the operator interface). For those of you expecting to see robots with a common theme in their design and function, you are entirely correct. This has always happened in the past. Just because two robots are both shooters with a turret doesn’t mean they have the same design. When you look closer you may very well find that the two robots have very striking differences. I would suggest to everyone to not judge a robot by its shell. Get closer and take a look at its guts and see what it’s made of. Sometimes seeing the subtle differences in designs can be a very inspirational thing. |
Re: Limitations too far?
Box on wheels with ball coming out is exactly what a person is going to see that is not part of FRC. They are not going to see your great programming, your great mechanism or super drive system. That wider fan base wants to see that claw or that sledge hammer swinging around. Maybe this year the human player will get more cheers. "He's five for five so far. He let's one go---IT'S GOOD!!!!"
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Re: Limitations too far?
This game is forcing teams to modernize and the claws are coming out. We used IFI controllers for so long, programed in C using software that could be ran on any old computer with a serial port. On the same carpet year in and year out.
Now we have new challenges and instead of taking them in stride you cry about how hard this is, i had faith in FIRST'ers at one point |
Re: Limitations too far?
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I just don't think us doing that will look as exciting as past years, I guess. I mean god only knows, really. The matches could turn out to be intensely exciting. |
Re: Limitations too far?
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Re: Limitations too far?
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Jane, Those complaining are complaining because they have not learned what they need to know. Instead of learning how to design a drivetrain they have learned how to manipulate the one that was designed for them, and now it won't work and they are being asked to innovate. To everyone else, Go look at Janes signature. Today you are being forged in fire, and it will either break you or make you stronger. Learn, Adapt, and become an engineer ... don't just assume that because you can modify an existing design that you are an engineer. |
Re: Limitations too far?
I've been thinking about limitations for the past few days with regard to the game. Naturally, that started me thinking in other directions regarding limitation, as well. In space exploration, there are limitations that push those involved to the limits in how to solve/resolve/work with the limitations and push them/explore them. The Mars rovers are an example. In order to work to solve/resolve/push/explore limitations, there has to be an acceptance of them and then an understanding of them. Another example, astronauts have to be very well-trained and they also have to think on their feet when they embark on missions, hoping all goes according to plan, but staying alert and ready to adjust as needed.
I imagine that from space, perspective can change significantly by looking out a window towards earth. Teams are being offered opportunities to check their perspectives of their own limitations and how they are created/why they are created. If they are impacted by resources and mentor support, that is one thing to work with/through. If the limitations are caused by attitude, that is another thing to work with/through. Just as every year, there are freshmen starting out, and this 2009 game will be the game that they know as they move forward through their time in FRC and on the team. At the same time, there are seniors who have known several different games and look back at those for areas of familiarity, achievements, and setting the bar for the team. It can be hard to move the bar again without some resistance or hesitance. That is when it is a good time to look into why and how the team has acquired experience and achieved success by acknowledging the limitations, learning from them/about them and dealing with them. Edit: Daniel, sorry - you posted while I was thinking about this post. It may somehow fit with what you wrote. BTW, thank you. Jane |
Re: Limitations too far?
I think the limitations (aka Rules) of this game has been wonderful for our team. We had to start with blank sheets of paper and use the ideas, concepts and knowledge we have to make new marks.
We have traditionally said that the drive train concepts must be proven in the offseason and preseason to be used during the build season. Scratch that this year. New engineering, new calculations, new simulations all took place in the past few days. Many more team members have an understanding of what goes into the design of the drive train. Friction, centers of gravity, strength of materials have been considered as never before. As for the box that will be the robot? We ended our preliminary design session with 5 distinct, feasible and buildable designs. Our team leader commented that that was unprecedented in her 14 years of FIRST experience. And those were the designs that met the requirements for our particular strategy emphases. And with teams having different strategies, I really expect to see countless configurations of robots at competition! Limitations too far? Not by a long shot. |
Re: Limitations too far?
If you guys are complaining about limitations now, I'm going to make a proposal for next year. I'll give you the details now, though.
It's one simple rule: "All robots shall be built using only what is in the KOP, plus $x from [insert supplier], plus a certain amount of a, b, c, and d materials from the local Home Depot." Oh, and the KOP will include items that are not in component form. All I'll say is that it's happened before, back in the "Dark Ages" before alliances. I don't think it limited creativity one bit. |
Re: Limitations too far?
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The only rules I gripe about are the stipulations on bumpers, and not even the fact that we can't extend passed them...that I can easily live with. But even as I complain when a particular design concept fails, a new design comes to mind or I find a small, simple solution to a part of the problem. Really, in all honesty, I could have cared less that these solutions existed except for the fact that the rules forced me and the CAD student to find them. The students are in a similar boat with the way the conveyor design worked out, yet they're floating with it on their own until the drive train is done. To my surprise, they're not only finding solutions, but the solutions are way better than what any of the mentors could have come up with. Without these 'restrictions', none of this would have happened. Just wait till you get into the real world when you're on the wrong side of an ambiguous problem who's solution had no real direction to begin with. Then you will have wished someone had put restrictions in place somewhere along the line. |
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Perhaps if the GDC would release an explanation of why they decided a rule needed clarification we would all feel a little more at ease. |
Re: Limitations too far?
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They thought the rule was bulletproof as it was. Then the 10 or so of them turned the game over to 10,000+ high schoolers and as many mentors, who immediately started looking for ways around the intent of the rule by using the letter of the rule. So the GDC decided that clarification was necessary, and issued it. |
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