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GDC you have failed us.
I keep hearing people say that the GDC has leveled the playing field this year, however I feel this is simply not true. While it is true that we are playing on a totally different surface, there are still many, many aspects a rookie team will not be able to over come.
As wildstang demonstrates in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_I0cRmGIE) there is still going to be a huge advantage to anyone who has a crab drive system, perhaps this year more than ever (as discussed in another thread simple tank drive is going to have tons of problems this year). Additionally we are starting with a whole new programming platform, however this platform was beta tested by many teams, all of which are many year veteran teams. I could rant on for quite a while about this, and if anyone wants me to expand upon any of my points, go ahead and ask, and I'll do my best to explain. But come on people this game isn't leveling anything, if anything it's just broadening the gulf between the vets and rookies. |
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Okay well if it is your opinion that the GDC have not leveled the playing field, then all you can really refute is the idea that they did since in essence, if they didn't the playing field would be the same as last year, which would be unleveled...and you would then be posting the same post except without the claim the GDC sold us this "leveled playing ground."
Just play the game, trust me you'll enjoy yourself more thinking about all the crazy ways your robot can approach the game. Hopefully this makes sense :P |
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(Rant copied and pasted from another topic-I've been ranting quite a bit lately, forgive me for recycling :yikes: )
The obvious effort to even the playing field in this game is, while well-intentioned, going to have the opposite effect. It is strikingly similar to what has happened in Formula 1, which used to be practically open in terms of car and engine design. However, lately there have been increasing efforts at regulation and standardization-some of them have been for safety and some to cut costs, but many have had as a stated goal the improvement of competition. However, they have had the opposite effect. In the past, teams could come up with really innovative ideas to provide an advantage, and many did; famous examples of which include the Tyrell P34 and the Brabham BT46B "fan car", which ironically enough is apparently banned in this competition just as it was in real life. These days, however, in order to eke out any improvement, F1 teams must do hours upon hours of expensive wind tunnel work, use gigantic simulators to test any part thoroughly before even considering trying it, and basically spending millions upon millions of dollars for improvements of tenths of seconds. Lunacy will be similar-IMO, the most important factors in this game will be the human player, the drivetrain, programming, and the driver. The first factor is essentially a wash, despite some concerns over "basketball players" or the like. But the rest will not be. Sure, many teams will have to rethink their drivetrain and we will thankfully see the disappearance of the "trick" wheels, but the veteran teams will still have an advantage. We all know that. Programming will be even worse-I'm sure you have all seen the talk about here about traction control, anti-lock braking, and all the other three-letter abbreviations standard on new cars of the day. How do expect any programmer new to FRC to handle any of that? And given the new surface and quickly disappearing game pieces, the only drivers that will have much practice will be the ones on teams that can afford the game field, and in these economic times, there are not many of those. |
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While it is true the veterans may have some advantages, I don't think you can discount rookie teams. This is a unique time for FIRST as most teams have not had early access to the control system and the playing field is quite the equalizer. I think you will be surprised by the success of many rookies and surprised by the lack of success from veteran teams. I guess what I am trying to say, is most teams (rookie and vet) are on pretty equal footing.
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Honestly you need to chill. I was an impatient student who thought the same way about past games and it took me until recently to come to many realizations that the GDC probably came to when they made their executive decisions to go with the games Aim High, Rack'n'Roll, and Overdrive. There is always more than meets the eye. They have their reasons.
The WildStang movie proves nothing to be honest. You need to look at the big picture. Was there a 40lbs mass on the trolley that the crab was dragging? There are other drive trains that can do similar things WITH the moon wheels. Just think outside the box but inside the 28" X 38" X 60" rectangular prism and you may come up with a solution. Think about the playing field on many levels. Software, Strategy, Hardware, etc. Then you may come to the conclusion that there is a big picture. What is the big picture? Hell, not even I know. But when I figure out, I'll be sure to let you know. It took me 2 years for Rack'n'Roll so give me your email and I'll fill you in as soon as I "get it". Pavan Dave |
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You guys all bring up valid points. IDK maybe I'm just really upset about this game because of team update #1, but that's a whole other issue.
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to be completly honest it looks level to me. There isn't anything on it, no slopes, monkey bars or anything of sorts. Just a pretty level floor:p :p
(come on, nobody thought of this, for shame) |
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I have seen more interaction between the students and mentors and engineers this year than in the past. There has been more mathmatical equations being put on our boards that I dare say being used in the math classes. Based on this, I would say that the GDC has hit a homerun with this years challenge. I think that this year's game will leave a defining moment on a lot of student's futures. |
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On topic, I like the game, and think it puts us all at a disadvantage to a robot with traction wheels, but since no robots will have traction wheels, I think were all good. Rookie teams do not have any more of a disadvantage than other years. They have less IMO, but to each his own. |
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I think that the discussion has merit, regardless of how individuals feel about the game.
But... IMHO, we can't have a absolutely level playing field. Not with each and every team starting from scratch. Even two rookie teams are not neccesarily even when they start based on who is on their team. But I believe the GDC really threw us all a great curve to deal with. In essence we all have the same drive. I don't recall a past game where that has happened. And we all know how important drives are, and a vet team will have an advantage on carpet. So really I think they have just made a game that, so far, has been surprisingly fun to work with. And in the end, after the game has been played and robots put out to pasture, it wasn't about the machines, but the students, FIRST (what it stands for) and the relationships that mentors are trying to build. Hopefully you will dig the game and see a rookie take the prize in Atlanta. |
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Billfred also forgot to mention rookies like 254 and 2056, showing up and winning their first 6, and 4 regionals ever competed in, respectively.
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I should also say, I loved this game, until about 4:30 today...
I dont think the GDC completely failed, because this is certainly a challenging game, however they did not level the playing field. |
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the video doesnt account for the mass of the trailer with balls, and it looks like several other videos ive seen. most of the drivetrains will be about the same efficacy i think.
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A crab drive will be the most effective drive train this year, hands down. If you can get crab drive with traction control, you will be able to out maneuver everyone, and thats about all you can do this year.
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You can look at it however unleveled you want. A team has the capacity to use such and such over teams that don't have that capacity, etc etc etc. There is no way to truly make the playing field level unless they give you specific amounts of materials, and make you have to use those exact materials. Then everyone would complain about the GDC restricting us too much, which I believe happens to be another thread topic...
You can complain as much as you want, you may get a few game updates here and there, but all your complaining is wasting time you could spend designing or figuring out a way of solving the problem. The thing about veteran teams having more knowledge. Many veteran teams are willing to share their past designs with other teams to help out rookies. If this is a reason for why teams don't perform well, how does this explain "the amazing phenomenon" of rookie teams outperforming veteran teams? |
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I am not so sure the issue is about leveling the playing field, which is what this thread is about so far.
If anything, with a new control system and tougher constraints, the gap will widen with a few elite teams. I'd bet, this will be evident at CMP. |
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Just because a rookie team is a rookie to FRC, doesn't mean they may not know what to do. As stated by Billfred, a good amount of first-year teams have done very well.
A sigh of relief went through the room as we heard that these KOP wheels were mandatory. Everybody knows that this will "level the playing field", even if not completely. In my honest opinion, a few of the previous games weren't really all that "difficult" to everybody. Sure, some teams had the time, resources, or creativity to do very well in the competition. But just because you were in the program since 1998 (I know it started in '92) doesn't mean that you're automatically a powerhouse team. I agree with whomever stated that this time would be better spent developing a solution instead of complaining about the problem. |
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Its 1992. ;)
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lol, That's besides my point, but thanks for the fact.
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To me, this is a brilliant game. The GDC, as already stated, threw EVERYONE a significant curve ball this year. My team is actually worse off than a lot of rookies right now. We are having to UN-LEARN much of how we used to do things in order to deal with these new constraints and problems.
Ha, seems like just as we're settling on how to solve a problem we remember... "ohh yea... they changed that this year... back to the drawing board..." We've taken a lot for granted the past few years. We had finally settled on a great drive train we just kept repeating, so we never had to worry about that, just threw it together in the first week, and spent the rest of our time working on arms, manipulators, code, strategy, ect. This year though... we have to completely rethink everything all over again. The only real advantage vet teams have this year is just a sort of familiarity with having to solve some interesting problems. That, and just having resources of engineers, mentors, ect. to help them understand the problems, and the solutions. There are always rules that don't make us happy, but they're a big part of the challenge. Engineering isn't a fairy tale; we live in a world of constraints. Some of the best engineering I've ever done happened after I got over the fact that constraints exist, and I got down to business and built something that was innovative and worked well anyways in spite of it. Don't let the challenge discourage you. Embrace it, let it drive you. Hehe, 'we don't do these things because they are easy, we do them because they are hard' |
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Most crab bots also have a "tank" type mode to re-orient. To me it just looks like there "tank driving" A crab drive might not even be the best idea for this game because if you are crabbing sideways you are pulling the trailer sideways as well and the wheels won't be straight... I realize that yes the floor is very slick but this could still drag the back end a bit and cause your bot to arc when driving sideways... Just a thought Also we had a tank drive prototype running around on the field surface with a fare amount of control...:ahh: |
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The GDC has not "failed us" by any means. They have created a new challenge for 2009, which is indeed a challenge to all of us. It pushes us outside our comfort zone and forces us to think creatively, and to reconsider things that in the past, we have taken for granted. Yes, this is hard to do. No, it does not make us rookies again. But, when is the playing field ever truly "level"? This year, veteran teams still have seasons of experience and knowledge behind them; even if they don't have their custom wheels and perfect drivetrains, they still have all of the learning and wisdom that has come with years of facing new challenges in this program. FIRST is still FIRST, no matter which season we're talking about, and these veteran teams are going to help out the rookies around them, and pass on some of the valuable lessons they have learned. Younger teams will still be inspired by other teams, individuals, and robots. The competitions will still be full of spirit and excitement. The world is not ending in 2009, and the GDC has done no harm. (In fact, I'm sure they knew exactly what they were doing when they created this year's game.)
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hence its just like any 4wd tank or car style setup most teams can build. if anyone from 111 cares to elaborate on what system was actually being used during this test, feel free to chime in. we ran a 4wd robot longways oriented today and we had just as much control over motion as wildstang did in the video fyi. |
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To the OP:
I think you are horrendously mistaken. First off, the data. You are basing your assumptions on a simple video posted by WildStang demonstrating their crab drive and the false assumption that beta-testers get more resources (which ewas already discussed previously). Wildstang's youtube video demonstrates little about the dynamics that will be present in the game. furthermore, they give you no data about the test performed, it looks like they added a bunch of weight to their robot, and the trailer is not to specification. even more, their turning still leaves much to be desired. Second of all, this is a "curveball" that the GDC has thrown at us. By changing the surface that we have grown so accustomed to, they have essentially told us to stop using what has worked in the past and think of something that will work better in a low friction environment. they are begging us to solve the issue of slow turning and acceleration. They are begging us to use the camera to create an innovative shooter/unloader system that can deal with moving targets. They are begging us to turn this ice rink into an asphalt racing stadium. Sure, Wildstang could go out and use their crab drive system. But i dont think they would, because in doing this they would be discouraging themselves of thinking of a better way of moving around. It is completely likely that any team (even a rookie team) could think of a method of moving around that could give them split second turning and high-friction like accelerations and would be able to outrun anybody and anything. in my opinion, FIRST is stressing the I in their name more than ever this year. make 'em proud. |
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Are you seriously kidding me?
This game, by far, is too leveled, if anything...but that's a story for another thread here. |
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swamp_child.
If you look back a few months in CD media, you'll find some pics of 973's KingKrab, and a linked youtube video. I'm not showing off, just establishing myself and my team now fully understand crabs, we have built a crab, and it's a good crab (I'd like to think). Will we be using a crabdrive this year? Nope. The crabdrive's advantage is largely negated by the trailer, you must not have seen a video of a skid-steer pulling a trailer, as it didn't look much different. A crab will be a little better at manuevering during initial turns I imagine, but not substantially better overall. On top of that, A crab is substantially heavier than a skid-steer. Advanced Teams may be able to make a crab weigh as little as the average team's skid-steer, but not as light as a that same team could build a skid steer. Not to mention the limits on ball pickup, the combination of the physical shape of crab modules, their mounting system, the bumper rules, and the size limitations will make a crab less than ideal for ball pickup. And then, aside from all that, you shouldn't criticize the GDC for rules that are merely affecting gameplay. As far as I know, they don't get paid, and if anything only get grief from their family and spouses for the long hours they must put it. On top of that, it must be $@#$@#$@#$@# near impossible to design a game, you may disagree, but you should try it once. I imagine 100k people lawyering your rules, complaining about the rules or just saying how boring it is will prove you wrong. |
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Last year, I tried rewriting part of Section 8 to remove a circular definition. I had help, and I got the intended result. It took a while, though. I still think someone could find a loophole. This year, the GDC removed said circular definition with a single change that made it darn near bulletproof. I will give you all a challenge if you are complaining about the GDC and their rules/rulings. Are you ready? Design and submit a complete game, including at least an outline of sections 6, 7, and 8, to the "YOU design the 2010 Game!" thread(s) when those are released. You currently have about 4 months, if history is correct. I think that's about how long the GDC has to do more than that, once they really get down to work, but they have experience, so it's still pretty fair. Try to include all the elements you can in your consideration: rookies, veterans, control system capabilities, fields, robots, etc. We'll leave out any restrictions that are outside of teams and FIRST's control. Good luck. |
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Every year we see posts like this in the first week saying how bad the game will be, or how unfair that rule will be... and then everyone goes out and has a good time.
Teams will note that it has been mentioned several times that a clean, waxed linoleum floor (gee... don't suppose there are any of those available in schools...) will be a quite suitable stand in for the playing field material. Aside from that, you are right... the great teams in FRC will probably continue to be great teams. That is because they have great people who embrace the challenge rather than whine about it. And thank goodness there are powerhouse teams out there... they set a great example and inspire the rest of us to greater heights. Jason |
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So the video you posted in support of your argument is actually is a dispute of your arument. |
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I have to say, I quite like this year's game. Makes me wish I still was in FIRST, but well, 3 years into college and I don't even have time to help mentor a team. You do know the changes in F1 were done to help level the playing field for new teams? Same reason why WRC went to S2000 rules. Reduce cost and complexity for new teams to emerge. Same concept with the 2009 game. I do agree with you about the limiting of innovation, but only for motorsports. That's a whole story in itself, but with FIRST it's totally different. In the past FIRST has only really banned specific innovations because it's not safe or it's causing problems (like the use of filecards for traction in 2002, and the entanglement rule). It's true that racing teams have to spend countless hours on engine dynos and windtunnels to extract milliseconds off of lap times, but that's because motorsports technology is quite advanced and has reached a peak. The competition has been the same for year on end, you race a car around a track. With most large technological innovations already discovered, it's going to take a lot of work to produce a significantly less amount of achievement... basically technological advancement is reaching the peak of it's curve where more work equals less result. But it's different with FIRST, the game changes every year. More so with this year, as mentioned above they've pretty much wiped the slate clean. If anything this competition will give rookie teams more of a chance to catch up. For years there has been more or less a "right" way to build a drivetrain (take 254 for example, or I guess what's called the west coast drivetrain). That 6wd platform has been serving many teams well, which is great. But this game has nerfed it, quite a bit. I can see making some people unhappy because well, now they have to redesign their drivetrain. But that's part of the challenge right? Everyone else has to redesign their drivetrain, no one has the advantage of a knowing how to build and execute a battle hardened system, so I see that as lessening the advantage gap between the veteran teams and the rookie teams. It's undeniable that veteran teams will always have some advantage over a rookie team, but this applies everywhere. Just be happy that this is FIRST, where veteran teams are willing to help rookie teams that ask for help. In professional motorsports it's not as nice. Ultimately, in my opinion. It's great that FIRST has managed to close the gap between this advantage without stomping on too many people's toes. I noticed that someone mentioned in a different thread about a lack of defense. Defense is fun alright, being destructive in a legitimate way is always entertaining but well, that's not very challenging, haha. Defense isn't really gone, I think FIRST has just been doing what they've been trying to do and make it less of a contact-ordeal and more of a strategic defense ordeal. Lastly I don't really see the significant advantage with a swerve drive system, especially in the video posted. The competition trailer has fixed wheels for starters, along with a lot more weight. The threads posting about tank steering having problems is only an advisory that using old methods is no longer going to cut it, goes back to what I tried to explain above. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. Anyways wow that was a big mess, sorry... For those who managed to read through it all I applaud you. For those who managed to read and understand it... well I guess I can give you a pat on the back. |
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For what it's worth, though, it is possible that they are not actually rotating the crab modules in that video. |
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OK,
The video is merely showing one robot driving around on a large surface of the material used in this year's game. Thanks to one of our parents for having a few pieces stored in his shop from a previous project. The robot shown has crab (because we had one that used the same wheel mounts as this year) but everyone must understand, this is day three driving and practice has not even begun to make a dent in driving performance. Of course the trailer is not competition because we (like you) are prototyping to understand the dynamics of the floor and the movements of a robot with trailer attached. This is using an IFI control system with no code modifications. We used a heavy steel drum dolly with sticky wheels to simulate the weight and charachteristics of a trailer bolted to the frame. And to be sure, we are not giving out hints to our design, it's only Day three! We are still brainstorming. The GDC has made a simple game a challenge by the selection of floor surface that is the real challenge. The same challenge all of us face. We don't know if crab will be an advantage or if tank drive will win out. Since manipulators that extend away from the robot are not allowed (see Team Update 1) then teams that are good at manipulator design won't have an advantage. This game is about the best level field I have seen in 14 games and I love that human players are more part of the equation. I will make this prediction (begging forgiveness from the Great Car Nack) teams that will do well will have practiced like crazy. As the adage goes... "How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, Practice, Practice!" |
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The part of that video that Everyone is over looking is the Trailer, They are pulling a trailer with CASTERS, they don't have a fixed wheeled trailer. Wait until you see the first video with a fixed wheeled trailer and crab drive, they will have trouble because their entire program will be messed up because the fixed wheeled trailer is a whole different ball game, The will lose the ability to back up over a foot with any accuracy because the trailer will jack knife after a foot.
Yes they were running a tank drive i believe, the crab modules didn't move. But when they drive tank drive they steer the right and left independently. |
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I find the challenges this year intriguing.
How do you coordinate with your teammates task-wise? Defense, offense, supercells? That will require many different auton options and start locations. How do maximize your driving potential? Practice. ABS. Traction Control. Weight distribution. How do you minimize people scoring on you? Strategy while driving. Do you focus on stuffing someone in a corner so your human can score? Even just a drivetrain robot will be able to interfere and slow others down. No... I see a game with infinite intricacies. I'm hoping that the more competitive regionals result in a bunch of robots driving around with camera focussed turrets firing balls like machine guns. It's like halo on ice.... |
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I see 111's video itself as inspiring...though we won't ever have the chance to put our hybrid drive train against theres unless we see them in Atlanta. Rookie teams will always be rookie teams no matter what -- most will be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of data that's out there for solving the game. A few of those will understand that for the moment, simple is better. It's expected, and has always been as 'level' of a playing field as the GDC can hope for with Rookies.
For the rest of us, we can get creative to come up with inexpensive, simple solutions to drive around on this surface, so that's what we should do. My team has taken on a huge challenge of a somewhat new, radical drive train that's only been seen once in FRC before. I didn't present the idea to them until January 3rd at about 7pm. Every day we question ourselves on whether we've made the right decision, but then at the end of every day I relax knowing that we've solved every problem the drive train design has given us with a simple solution. Had the GDC not forced a wacky field into this game, I seriously doubt the other lead mentors on our team would have ever been motivated to try something that wasn't simple or easy to do for a drive train. So to me, the GDC has surpassed my expectations. |
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I consider Overdrive to have been a much harder game for rookies and low-tier teams then Lunacy will be.
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In Lunacy, the balls are smaller, an auto-mode is easier to have (just moving around is just as good as anything), and the movement of robots is not as constrained as it was in Overdrive. I don't believe that a slick playing surface is such a huge obstacle to leap over. |
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It's pretty simple...the more restrictions and deeper into the unknown you go, the greater and more interesting the challenge is to find that one "edge" that will set you apart from everyone else.
In other words...game on! Focus! |
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I see that someone removed the youtube video. What's the reasoning for this? I was looking forward to seeing footage of a robot on a competition type floor with the provided wheels.
I understand that it's not the official trailer, not official weight, etc. But at this point, most teams have absolutely no idea how anything will handle with the wheels and floor any footage is helpful. This is the one problem I had with the game this year. No floor pieces were shipped with the KOP. I mean, even a 6 inch square sample would have been useful, as it currently stands, teams have to drop a huge amount of money to get any type of practice or even driving characteristics. Changing the floor was a good idea, failing to ship any type of representative sample of the floor was a horrible one. |
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I do have to ask: why are you so convinced that the GDC was attempting to "level the playing field"? (insert obvious joke about the Regolith being a largely level surface here). I do not recall any statement uttered during the kick-off broadcast or written anywhere in the rules that made that claim. All those that are so critical of the "Lunacy" game just 96 hours after it was unveiled seem to be making some rather large assumptions about the explicit and implicit intent behind the game design. I can tell you that some of those publicly stated assumptions (including those concerning the rationale behind Rule <G14>) are just flat out wrong. Perhaps there were reasons other than "leveling the playing field" (insert second obvious joke about the Regolith being a largely level surface here) that might have affected the design of the game? Maybe the obvious interpretation is not the only interpretation. Or even a correct one. And in that same period - a period in which NO ONE has actually built their competition robot, in which NO ONE has characterized the actual performance of their competition robot, in which NO ONE has played even one actual competition match - those same people are able to make deterministic statements about the overall quality of the game and how "good" it is. Perhaps rather than an open ended rant based on incomplete information and unfounded speculation, what is really needed here is for everyone to just relax for a moment. Take a deep breath and ponder the possibility "hmmmm.... I wonder if there might be OTHER reasons that could explain why the game is designed the way it is? Perhaps the obvious inferences are not the only ones? Maybe I better think about this a little more...." Or, if you don't want to do that, maybe just forget about the "why" for a while, and just focus on designing and building a kick-bot robot to play the game and having some fun. Relax. Take a deep breath. Have fun. Go build something. Inspire us. Just a thought.... -dave . |
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Thanks Dave.
As I had posted previously wondering the same thing, I didnt see how the GDC was making an attempt to level the playing field.......as it wasn't mentioned anywhere. The leveling occurs when we collaborate and make it a point to meet new teams and study other robot designs both past and present. Heck, that 2006 AIM High book is the best "bible" out there right now.:yikes: If you factor everything to consider, the hurdles/challenges imposed this year affects everyone, veteran or rookie,....right?? :D :D |
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http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=13 Number 4: If I would like to see anything interesting happen to the competitions, I would want to see a floor change. |
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(P.S.: I do, in fact, have some game ideas. I didn't post them because I didn't really come back to this board until the game hint... err... what's the opposite of exodus? Err, anyway, you get what I mean... but no, I don't think I could do better then the GDC! I would change a few things... >_>) |
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Curse you, Evan.:p Good playing field though. |
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