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-   Rules/Strategy (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   No-show teams and trailers (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71576)

ScottOliveira 13-01-2009 21:46
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
It seems like it would be fairly easy to detach the tongue from the trailer, it's only held in by a few easily accessible bolts (at least that's how it appears in the provided technical drawings.

I think the best solution would be to detach the tongue and attach a caster to keep the platform upright.

Ian Curtis 13-01-2009 22:17
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Wagner (Post 800364)
I want to verify I haven't missed something, but after the third update, there still seems to be no Q&A response or rules update that addresses this issue. The trailer tongue for a no-show robot will gouge the regolith when it gets shoved out of range of an opposing PS by an alliance partner. The trailer will also rest at a non-vertical angle, and might be tipped over backward fairly easily.

I would have posted my own Q&A question on this, but someone earlier in the thread said he would ask.
If you look at FIRST's field drawings the trailer hitch is pretty different than the one in the team drawings. The end of the rod is a hemisphere, so I highly doubt it will scratch the regolith. (Sorry, I can't remember the exact drawing number! It's in there though!)

Rick Wagner 15-01-2009 15:00
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
It will be interesting to see if the answer comes tomorrow on Q&A. Even if the tongue has no sharp edges, robots can run up on it or in a worst case scenario, the trailer gets tilted back for a second and a robot gets impaled on the tongue. The suggestion above, to remove the tongue for safety, seems to me to be workable. Removing the entire trailer, as has been pointed out, is apparently unworkable from a game dynamics viewpoint.

Perhaps the best solution, ultimately, will be to introduce a special tongueless trailer with a third wheel (no caster necessary, I think), just for the case of no-show robots. That means building extra trailers or modifying existing ones in realtime during the competitions.

Daniel_LaFleur 15-01-2009 15:02
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Wagner (Post 801561)
It will be interesting to see if the answer comes tomorrow on Q&A. Even if the tongue has no sharp edges, robots can run up on it or in a worst case scenario, the trailer gets tilted back for a second and a robot gets impaled on the tongue. The suggestion above, to remove the tongue for safety, seems to me to be workable. Removing the entire trailer, as has been pointed out, is apparently unworkable from a game dynamics viewpoint.
I suspect that we will just see surrogate robots playing for any robot that does not show.

Rick Wagner 15-01-2009 15:05
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 801564)
I suspect that we will just see surrogate robots playing for any robot that does not show.
I wonder if the surrogate robots will have autonomous modes and what they will be.

Daniel_LaFleur 15-01-2009 15:07
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Wagner (Post 801566)
I wonder if the surrogate robots will have autonomous modes and what they will be.
Surrogates are usually nothing more then a stand in team (without the penalty issue of <G14>)

Rick Wagner 15-01-2009 15:12
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 801568)
Surrogates are usually nothing more then a stand in team (without the penalty issue of <G14>)
That could work. Would the no-show team still play their payload specialist? I suppose so.

Daniel_LaFleur 15-01-2009 15:20
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Wagner (Post 801572)
That could work. Would the no-show team still play their payload specialist? I suppose so.
Yup. Full team. Just would not get the ranking points or W/L record.

EricH 15-01-2009 15:23
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
I don't know about having surrogate teams (outside of the normal ones). It's kind of like, "Hey could you guys fill in for team XXXX right away?" You're really going to irritate some people.

I also don't see this being too much of an issue. 90% of matches have two full alliances. The other 10% are mainly due to broken robots. Stick the robot onto the field, get it away from its launch pad, and disable it or drive around doing nothing.

ScottOliveira 15-01-2009 15:33
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
There is generally a fair number of teams willing to be a surrogate alliance member, just to get a little more practice and a little more exposure.

Kevin Sevcik 15-01-2009 15:40
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottOliveira (Post 801590)
There is generally a fair number of teams willing to be a surrogate alliance member, just to get a little more practice and a little more exposure.
There is also one very harried person in charge of team queuing at each event. If you told this person that they'd have to hunt down a surrogate team for every no show, in addition to hunting down the no-show, they probably wouldn't like you much.

Not to mention how it would screw up the scoring software, or the team/match list for the MC, or....

It's just not going to happen. There's far too many difficulties involved compared to just leaving a trailer out there.

EricH 15-01-2009 15:41
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottOliveira (Post 801590)
There is generally a fair number of teams willing to be a surrogate alliance member, just to get a little more practice and a little more exposure.
And they've never been used. Ever. Except in the official surrogate matches or as a backup in the eliminations. (OK, and in practice matches.)

Rick Wagner 15-01-2009 15:43
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Leaving the no-show robot's trailer out there would have two benefits: first, it would emphasize the importance of getting your robot ready on time. Second, it will lead to some interesting autonomous modes and driver team play in "rescuing" the lonely trailer from its starting position.

GaryVoshol 15-01-2009 19:10
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottOliveira (Post 801590)
There is generally a fair number of teams willing to be a surrogate alliance member, just to get a little more practice and a little more exposure.
Beside being a queuing nightmare, how are you going to regulate it? "Brokenbot from team 9999 can't play, can we get a surrogate? OK, Pink will do it." Yeah, that'll go over well with the opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 801583)
The other 10% are mainly due to broken robots. Stick the robot onto the field, ...
At least two problems with this. First, you pull the broken robot out of its pit for 20 minutes or so, making it less likely it would get fixed for the following match. Second, a broken robot hurredly patched back together to sit on the field could be an illegal robot (they forgot to include something). Now Brokenbot has just caused their alliance a penalty, and maybe a yellow card (see <S04>).

Rick Wagner 20-01-2009 19:15
Re: No-show teams and trailers
 
Update 5 is out today but this issue is still not addressed.


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