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-   -   **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71587)

Mark McLeod 08-01-2009 14:02
**FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Greetings Teams:

Game pieces for the 2009 FRC Game were chosen with the expectation/understanding that they would be readily available to teams from WalMart. Unfortunately, we recently learned that WalMart decided to discontinue this item. Remaining Orbit Balls are only available through WalMart stores in the US and are not available online.

FIRST will make our surplus of Orbit Balls available for sale to teams through www.logoloc.com/first/ starting noon Eastern Time on Friday, January 9th, 2009.

Orbit Balls will be sold as a set of 3 for $27.00 per set plus shipping and handling. Each team may purchase only one set. (We have limited quantities available. FIRST may allow teams to purchase additional sets in the future, depending on inventory levels. We will notify teams if additional sets become available.) The only color available is orange/purple (moon rocks).

Order soon, when they’re gone, they’re gone.

Go Teams!

Kims Robot 08-01-2009 14:09
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
:*(

So any chance there are 40 teams that want to come to the Rochester Rally (our Preship Scrimmage)??? (assuming each team brings 3 balls...)

Kyle 08-01-2009 14:12
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Its great they are selling the balls now, but only 3?! I don't thing that anyone can properly build and design with only 3 of any game piece. But its better then nothing.. :)

Lowfategg 08-01-2009 14:12
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
............................. I can say nothing more. :ahh:

This year is really something else.

smurfgirl 08-01-2009 14:14
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Yaaay! We can stop raiding the country's Walmarts now. (:

MrForbes 08-01-2009 14:17
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Or....we could keep raiding the country's Walmarts, and then those teams that have sufficient balls from local sources could "unclaim" the 3 balls that FIRST has reserved for them, and let other teams purchase them?

NorviewsVeteran 08-01-2009 14:17
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle (Post 795910)
Its great they are selling the balls now, but only 3?! I don't thing that anyone can properly build and design with only 3 of any game piece. But its better then nothing.. :)
4, one came in the kit

ggoldman 08-01-2009 14:21
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Instead of worrying about the lack of resources, try looking at it from a different perspective.

When a NASA roboticist designs a gripper to grab onto moon rocks, they do not have many moon rocks available to actually use to test their design. Instead, they know the design specifications of what they will work with. From that they model their situation and perform multiple simulations.

They only have "one round" when they ship off to the moon. We are VERY lucky in the sense that we have access to AT LEAST 3 of the objects we will manipulate.

Take this on as a challenge and don't worry, because in the end everyone will be knowledgeable and inspired after the build season..and that is one of the goals of the competition!

Akash Rastogi 08-01-2009 15:11
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
[sarcasm]SWEET! 4 WHOLE BALLS! YES![/sarcasm]

Well, remember this isn't FIRST's fault entirely. They did not know of Wal Mart's intentions.

smurfgirl 08-01-2009 15:28
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 795970)
[sarcasm]SWEET! 4 WHOLE BALLS! YES![/sarcasm]
Are you kidding? It's like... 4 times the fun!

cabbagekid2 08-01-2009 16:15
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 795970)
[sarcasm]SWEET! 4 WHOLE BALLS! YES![/sarcasm]

Well, remember this isn't FIRST's fault entirely. They did not know of Wal Mart's intentions.
They didn't know of Walmrt's intentions, but you'd think that...FIRST SHOULD BE THE ONE TO LET Walmart know of THEIR intentions to use a ball which is distributed soley by Walmart. Or even check with the manufactuer to see the status of the product.

*sigh* sorry, had to rant

kgzak 08-01-2009 16:20
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
We found 5 of them at our walmart. Now we have 2 of each ball.

likeapolygraph 08-01-2009 18:43
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
I think that more than likely you will be dealing with broken orbit balls on the field anyways so you might as well try working with your robot with broken ones as well as unbroken ones...otherwise if you don't want them breaking then just try not to break them. Many of the ones that our team acquired were already broken anyways but we bought as many as we could because we decided not to wait until they were completely unavailable. We decided to deal with broken ones as they come.

Mike Soukup 08-01-2009 18:51
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 795970)
Well, remember this isn't FIRST's fault entirely. They did not know of Wal Mart's intentions.
Really? When you're going to cause 2000 teams to want to buy 10-20 or more balls each, you'd better be sure that the only supplier of these balls is actually going to keep supplying them and will have a large enough quantity. As cabbagekid2 said, FIRST should have told the manufacturer and supplier what was going to happen. The small chance of potential damage caused by a leak is worth the huge pain that teams are facing now. How is a team supposed to design, build, and test a robot capable of holding 20 balls if they only have 4?

This is a pretty large 'oops' by FIRST.

Katie_UPS 08-01-2009 18:56
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Soukup (Post 796110)
Really? When you're going to cause 2000 teams to want to buy 10-20 or more balls each, you'd better be sure that the only supplier of these balls is actually going to keep supplying them and will have a large enough quantity. As cabbagekid2 said, FIRST should have told the manufacturer and supplier what was going to happen. The small chance of potential damage caused by a leak is worth the huge pain that teams are facing now. How is a team supposed to design, build, and test a robot capable of holding 20 balls if they only have 4?

This is a pretty large 'oops' by FIRST.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle (Post 795910)
Its great they are selling the balls now, but only 3?! I don't thing that anyone can properly build and design with only 3 of any game piece. But its better then nothing.. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cabbagekid2 (Post 796035)
They didn't know of Walmrt's intentions, but you'd think that...FIRST SHOULD BE THE ONE TO LET Walmart know of THEIR intentions to use a ball which is distributed soley by Walmart. Or even check with the manufactuer to see the status of the product.

*sigh* sorry, had to rant



You know, last year's game peice was pretty much unobtainable last year, and I think having one was enough. For '07, having more than two was plenty. As long as you can do a basic test, you shouldn't complain.

As I've heard in the other threads, the orbit balls were on clearance for months. Which means BLIP Toys has prolly stopped making them for even longer. Which means FIRST would've have to give a warning about a year in advanced to prepare the two suppliers.

Tom Line 08-01-2009 19:02
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cabbagekid2 (Post 796035)
They didn't know of Walmrt's intentions, but you'd think that...FIRST SHOULD BE THE ONE TO LET Walmart know of THEIR intentions to use a ball which is distributed soley by Walmart. Or even check with the manufactuer to see the status of the product.

*sigh* sorry, had to rant
Can you please show us proof that they did not?

The economy has been changing a bit the last couple months.

chaoticprout 08-01-2009 19:07
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_UPS (Post 796119)
You know, last year's game peice was pretty much unobtainable last year, and I think having one was enough. For '07, having more than two was plenty. As long as you can do a basic test, you shouldn't complain.

As I've heard in the other threads, the orbit balls were on clearance for months. Which means BLIP Toys has prolly stopped making them for even longer. Which means FIRST would've have to give a warning about a year in advanced to prepare the two suppliers.
There's a vast difference between a 40" game piece that you can only use one of at a time (with 4 on the field) vs. smaller balls that you need to test containers and feeding mechanisms with (with 120+ on the field).

Not even close to the same.

Richard Wallace 08-01-2009 19:12
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Years ago I probably would have been disturbed all this whining about the shortage of game pieces available for purchase.

Several years of working with inspirational FIRSTers have given me an insight that precludes being disturbed by the whiners. The insight? I KNOW that for every person whining about gamepieces on CD, there are several others out there in the workshops, building GUS Balls, right now.

There are many thousands of FIRSTers who rise to challenges by finding ways to move forward. You can be one of them, or you can whine and make excuses. The choice is yours.

JaneYoung 08-01-2009 19:18
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard (Post 796131)
I KNOW that for every person whining about gamepieces on CD, there are several others out there in the workshops, building GUS Balls, right now.
There are many shining moments that stand out for me during my time as a FIRSTer. The GUS Ball development and white paper that happened so quickly is right there at the top, shining like a star.

907eyci 08-01-2009 19:46
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
this could be a good fund raising chance here... by the balls and resell them... i no some one is going to do it just when

keen101 08-01-2009 20:31
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
we will probably just make 20 of our own.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2187?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=71591

comphappy 08-01-2009 22:06
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by keen101 (Post 796193)
we will probably just make 20 of our own.
Takes a long time just so you know, we have been working most of the day on our 20. We have most of the strips made, but no balls actually woven yet.
We had some issue with the rivets cracking the lexan, so dont pop the rivet all the way, just enough that it is tight, and the cut it off.

dlavery 08-01-2009 23:49
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Soukup (Post 796110)
Really? When you're going to cause 2000 teams to want to buy 10-20 or more balls each, you'd better be sure that the only supplier of these balls is actually going to keep supplying them and will have a large enough quantity. As cabbagekid2 said, FIRST should have told the manufacturer and supplier what was going to happen. The small chance of potential damage caused by a leak is worth the huge pain that teams are facing now. How is a team supposed to design, build, and test a robot capable of holding 20 balls if they only have 4?

This is a pretty large 'oops' by FIRST.
You are making a pretty big assumption that FIRST did not take reasonable steps to plan for team access to game pieces. Not to be an apologist for FIRST, but this one really was not their fault. The game piece was selected early last summer with the specific goal of making sure that they would be available through a ubiquitous outlet such as Wal-mart. Both the manufacturer and the outlet were consulted and informed of FIRST's intentions. Wal-mart indicated they could handle the expected distribution without disturbing their channels. All was considered well and good. But then one week before Christmas Wal-mart announced they were discontinuing sales of Orbit Balls, with no prior notice. That late in the process, two weeks before kick-off, there was no opportunity to negotiate an alternate distributor with the manufacturer or identify an alternate game piece. FIRST had planned to ensure that reasonable access to game pieces could be realized by those teams that wanted to obtain them. But they were caught at the last minute by forces beyond their control.

The current situation is one that, painful as it may be, we just have to deal with. In that regard, kudos go to Team 228 and their development of the GUS balls. They are an excellent solution to an unfortunate problem, and it is a wonderful move to share that solution with the entire FIRST community.

-dave



.

Akash Rastogi 08-01-2009 23:56
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Soukup (Post 796110)
Really? When you're going to cause 2000 teams to want to buy 10-20 or more balls each, you'd better be sure that the only supplier of these balls is actually going to keep supplying them and will have a large enough quantity. As cabbagekid2 said, FIRST should have told the manufacturer and supplier what was going to happen. The small chance of potential damage caused by a leak is worth the huge pain that teams are facing now. How is a team supposed to design, build, and test a robot capable of holding 20 balls if they only have 4?

This is a pretty large 'oops' by FIRST.
that is specifically why I said "not entirely"

I'll be honest, i threw that in there because i thought the first part of my response was a bit harsh.

EricH 09-01-2009 00:00
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 796441)

The current situation is one that, painful as it may be, we just have to deal with. In that regard, kudos go to Team 228 and their development of the GUS balls. They are an excellent solution to an unfortunate problem, and it is a wonderful move to share that solution with the entire FIRST community.

-dave



.
Dave, thanks for letting us know that we aren't the only ones surprised by the scarcity.

Out of curiosity, would it be possible, legally and otherwise, to share the links to the GUS ball whitepaper in an update to ensure that the news goes out to whoever isn't on CD? With, of course, the caveat that these are not the official game objects, though they are reasonable substitutes.

Kyle 09-01-2009 00:02
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 796441)
You are making a pretty big assumption that FIRST did not take reasonable steps to plan for team access to game pieces. Not to be an apologist for FIRST, but this one really was not their fault. The game piece was selected early last summer with the specific goal of making sure that they would be available through a ubiquitous outlet such as Wal-mart. Both the manufacturer and the outlet were consulted and informed of FIRST's intentions. Wal-mart indicated they could handle the expected distribution without disturbing their channels. All was considered well and good. But then one week before Christmas Wal-mart announced they were discontinuing sales of Orbit Balls, with no prior notice. That late in the process, two weeks before kick-off, there was no opportunity to negotiate an alternate distributor with the manufacturer or identify an alternate game piece. FIRST had planned to ensure that reasonable access to game pieces could be realized by those teams that wanted to obtain additional them. But they were caught at the last minute by forces beyond their control.

The current situation is one that, painful as it may be, we just have to deal with. In that regard, kudos go to Team 228 and their development of the GUS balls. They are an excellent solution to an unfortunate problem, and it is a wonderful move to share that solution with the entire FIRST community.

-dave



.

Thank you Dave, you have gave us insight into what happened that we didn't have before. I still believe that it will be hard for teams to properly design with limited amount of balls but what has been said here so far about all the teams that are winning about lack of balls there are twice as many that are just going to engineer ways around it is completely true. Once again, Thanks Dave for helping calm the situation down.
And wow last summer you had the game piece already picked out? Nice

Coach Norm 09-01-2009 00:19
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard (Post 796131)
There are many thousands of FIRSTers who rise to challenges by finding ways to move forward. You can be one of them, or you can whine and make excuses. The choice is yours.
Richard,
Thank you for posting and providing the gentle nudge some need to get back focused on what FIRST is about. Do engineers set around complaining about what they do not have? I think not.

In my previous career at my school, I coached athletics for 17 years and heard many times people complain about what the other teams had. It is not hard to look around and identify situations that seem unfair. New teams are at a disadvantage since they do not have the knowledge and experience of veteran teams. Some veteran teams do not have the resources other teams have. Teams are losing sponsorships due to economic times as well as losing mentors due lose of jobs.

Let's focus on what we have and what we can do with what we have.

Never in my coaching career or college athletic career have I experienced what I have in the past year. Generosity, encouragement, help and outright transparency in what makes other teams successful. Where else can you find that?

I reminded by FIRST Mission Statement:

Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

Does complaining about not having Orbit Balls fit with FIRST's Mission statement?

(I know step off my soapbox.)

Bharat Nain 09-01-2009 00:26
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Soukup (Post 796110)
Really? When you're going to cause 2000 teams to want to buy 10-20 or more balls each, you'd better be sure that the only supplier of these balls is actually going to keep supplying them and will have a large enough quantity. As cabbagekid2 said, FIRST should have told the manufacturer and supplier what was going to happen. The small chance of potential damage caused by a leak is worth the huge pain that teams are facing now. How is a team supposed to design, build, and test a robot capable of holding 20 balls if they only have 4?

This is a pretty large 'oops' by FIRST.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_UPS (Post 796119)
You know, last year's game peice was pretty much unobtainable last year, and I think having one was enough. For '07, having more than two was plenty. As long as you can do a basic test, you shouldn't complain.

As I've heard in the other threads, the orbit balls were on clearance for months. Which means BLIP Toys has prolly stopped making them for even longer. Which means FIRST would've have to give a warning about a year in advanced to prepare the two suppliers.
Last year, there were only 4 balls on the field. This year, its a lot more. I feel a little bit let down that even the game object is this hard to obtain. Teams running scrimmages were a huge benefit to their region. It will be a lot harder. I am glad to see many teams adopting a can-do attitude and fighting against the worst accommodations this year. It is certainly something else.

GaryVoshol 09-01-2009 07:12
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 796441)
But then one week before Christmas Wal-mart announced they were discontinuing sales of Orbit Balls, with no prior notice. That late in the process, two weeks before kick-off, there was no opportunity to negotiate an alternate distributor with the manufacturer or identify an alternate game piece. FIRST had planned to ensure that reasonable access to game pieces could be realized by those teams that wanted to obtain them. But they were caught at the last minute by forces beyond their control.
Thanks for sharing, Dave. As big as FIRST is to us, we sometimes fail to realize that it really isn't a major economic force in the world. Corporations, outside of specialty shops like AndyMark, aren't going to make production and supply decisions based on 1600 potential customers.

I think it's good of FIRST to share a limited access to pieces that they will be taking out of their own game stock. Hopefully there won't be a plea in April, "Please bring your Orbit Balls with you to Atlanta!"

jgannon 09-01-2009 08:49
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 796441)
FIRST had planned to ensure that reasonable access to game pieces could be realized by those teams that wanted to obtain them. But they were caught at the last minute by forces beyond their control.
Was the reasonable access meant to include teams outside of the United States? Rumor has it that Canadian stores never carried them in the first place, not that they disappeared at the last minute.

dsmoker 09-01-2009 12:06
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Just talked with logo logic, and it's after noon and the balls still aren't on the site. They said the site will be going live with the balls at 12:30.

Elgin Clock 09-01-2009 12:17
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Orbit Balls are up!
http://logoloc.com/first/index.html

Richard McClellan 09-01-2009 12:28
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
I just ordered some for our team!

Tristan Lall 09-01-2009 12:30
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
For Canadian teams, you probably ought to check with Karen Rosenthal to see if you've been included in the bulk order destined for Canada. (You could also call Logo Loc to confirm if your team is on the list, but they're quite busy at the moment....)

Your other option is to order them online, and pay the UPS Express shipping charge of around $75 USD (that's from Manchester, NH to Toronto, ON); at least brokerage fees are included with UPS Express. They don't have any cheaper shipping options available.

Michelle Celio 09-01-2009 12:33
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
For kicks and giggles I wanted to see how they planned on limiting teams to ordering just 1 set.

It may be wrong because I didn't actually complete a purchase. But I was able to add multiple sets and get to the payment point with out specifying a team.

Let's try and stay on the moral side and only order 1 set until FIRST allows teams to purchase more.

JeffChan 09-01-2009 12:44
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Celio (Post 796735)
For kicks and giggles I wanted to see how they planned on limiting teams to ordering just 1 set.

It may be wrong because I didn't actually complete a purchase. But I was able to add multiple sets and get to the payment point with out specifying a team.

Let's try and stay on the moral side and only order 1 set until FIRST allows teams to purchase more.
Yeah. I just realized that after I ordered a set (I follow teh rules)..

purduephotog 09-01-2009 12:51
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kims Robot (Post 795906)
:*(

So any chance there are 40 teams that want to come to the Rochester Rally (our Preship Scrimmage)??? (assuming each team brings 3 balls...)
We'll have a total of 6 to bring- plus any more we make- but I have a feeling the balls are going to be totally demolished by the time they get to the competition. They do not hold up to impacts, they break on a simple drop- I can't imagine what they'll look like after they're thrown in much less compressed into the wall between robots.

Sorry, I still feel FIRST should have changed to NERF for this competition and said "screw it".

cabbagekid2 09-01-2009 12:58
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Holy moly! Shipping 3 of those balls to Hawaii will cost $41 2nd day air and $34 ground. So the total cost of buying 3 balls and shipping 2nd day air is over 71 dollars! THAT'S an expensive game piece man.

Kims Robot 09-01-2009 13:45
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Celio (Post 796735)
For kicks and giggles I wanted to see how they planned on limiting teams to ordering just 1 set.

It may be wrong because I didn't actually complete a purchase. But I was able to add multiple sets and get to the payment point with out specifying a team.

Let's try and stay on the moral side and only order 1 set until FIRST allows teams to purchase more.
That is really bizzare, I didnt think about it until after I ordered either, that they never asked for our team number or anything... I only put in for one set, although with their costs ($5.87 handling and $10.79 just to ship ground to upstate NY!!), I dont think I would WANT to buy more than 3 balls... we are just going to make the rest for our event. We might even make them in our team colors instead (red, black & white) just to have some fun with it!

Dad1279 09-01-2009 14:51
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
2009 - FRC - Orbit Balls - Price Includes $27.00 for Balls + $5.87 handling : 1 : 32.87

Subtotal : 32.87
Shipping : 16.72
TOTAL : 49.59

$22.59 for shipping and handling for 3 balls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabbagekid2 (Post 796748)
Holy moly! Shipping 3 of those balls to Hawaii will cost $41 2nd day air and $34 ground. So the total cost of buying 3 balls and shipping 2nd day air is over 71 dollars! THAT'S an expensive game piece man.
$34 Ground to Hawaii? Do orbit balls float? ;)

Akash Rastogi 09-01-2009 14:54
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad1279 (Post 796809)
2009 - FRC - Orbit Balls - Price Includes $27.00 for Balls + $5.87 handling : 1 : 32.87

Subtotal : 32.87
Shipping : 16.72
TOTAL : 49.59

$22.59 for shipping and handling for 3 balls.
Man, that's steep...this year's getting a bit expensive for some teams.

Ordered ours as well. =)

btw can't wait to be with 1279 in Trenton sooon :D

merybar 09-01-2009 14:55
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad1279 (Post 796809)
2009 - FRC - Orbit Balls - Price Includes $27.00 for Balls + $5.87 handling : 1 : 32.87

Subtotal : 32.87
Shipping : 16.72
TOTAL : 49.59

$22.59 for shipping and handling for 3 balls.



$34 Ground to Hawaii? Do orbit balls float? ;)
.
If you ship UPS ground the shipping is half the price, $8.
Just Ordered 3

The Pre 09-01-2009 17:17
Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Game Pieces Available
 
so i guess we're very fortunate that the (evil store that shant be named) 15min from school had a bunch of which we only bought 18 leaving some on the shelves?

i wouldn't be surprised to see this on ebay soon (i don't think my team will, but just saying)... might be cheaper there for teams to buy their local (evil stores) out and sell to other teams not in the area


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