Picking up balls or not
 

so a big debate in my team is whether or not to pick up a ball. i agrgue that it is what sets apart the men from the boys, and will be a crucial part of winning. One of our members, and our coach says that picking up the ball will happen twice in the game at most and will be a space waster.
Let me know what you think, i need better arguments for why we should pick up a ball.

Josh "Froggy" Dennison
1525 Warbots

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

go on the blue alliance site and watch the Finals in Atlanta from Aim High. Most of the finalist used human loading. I'm not saying you can't build a successful collector though.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

The most successful teams in 2006 were those that could both human-load and vacuum-load, though the human-loaded ones tended to be more common.

With that said, I think that human-loading will be far less effective this year than in 2006 because the human players are forbidden from leaving their little zones. One thing that stands out in my mind from 2006 was all 3 human players reloading one of the triplets in about 10 seconds in a hail of balls. In 2006, human-reloading effectiveness was very high because you were allowed getting all 3 of your alliance's HPs about 4 feet away from your robot simultaneously. With the rules for Lunacy, you can only get 1 human player close to your robot at a time because they are spread all over the field.

Also, you are extremely vulnerable while stopped for loading because:
A) Your opponents will have a dead-stopped trailer to aim at (and they'll have 2 HPs close to you). Your opponents might fire a ball or two in your hopper, but balls in your hopper aren't scored yet, so that doesn't matter much.
B) Your own human players might mis-chuck and fire a ball into your trailer by accident.

In review, why this year is not like 2006 and why I think vacuum-loaders will be more effective:
-Stopping to reload in 2006 did not expose you to getting scored on
-In 2006, you could reload at essentially triple the pace of this year, which made human reloading that much more attractive.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

I think being able to pickup up balls will be helpful, but it will also be difficult due to the slippery driving situation.

We're going to try for both human and robot loading

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

Perhaps he was speaking of a seperate device for the grabbing and moving of empty cells so they would not mix in with moonrocks.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

The crux of this game is different - in 2006 the human players couldn't score points directly. Human players - espcially the outpost players, have a great opportunity to contribute and to score.

So your question is more complex - should your human players be shooting them at your robot or the other robot?

1. What's the risk, if they miss, that the ball ends up in the trailer?
2. Can they score in the trailers of opposing teams accurately?
3. Is it worth the time it will take to move back to be reloaded? Holy - slow -motion Batman!

The correct balance of human scoring and robot scoring will win this - but It will probably take 3 weeks of regionals before we begin to see winning patterns emerge.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

... and in 2006 your robot could EXPAND after the start of the game to collect more balls and you didn't have to stay within the starting volume.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

These are excellent points.

Some other thoughts:
-If you can human load, it may make it easier to both collect empty cells and score super cells with the robot (drop the balls in the bot and score).
-If you have a big hopper for HP loading you may catch some of the other alliances missed shots :yikes:

I still believe that HP loading will be faster than pickup b/c you won't have to chase down balls on the slippery surface. Chasing down 10 balls will take a fair amount of time...

One possible strategy is for the HP to toss them all in the same place so your robot can just zoom by and suck them up all at once. Kind of the best of both strategies eh?

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

Human players could score in 2006.

Other than that, I agree with what you say.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

One more thing to keep in mind, in 2006 the human players had a constant stream of balls at their disposal; any ball that was scored by the opposing alliiance was in the hands of the human players.

This year it's different. Each human player starts with 20 balls (or 13, depending on whether or not you want your robot to start with any. If you plan on putting balls in your robot anyway, then you will probably pre-load and start with 13). Considering how easy the shots will be right after autonomous starts, some of that ammo will likely be used up to score. If your at one of the outposts, this leaves you very few balls to last you the rest of the game.

If you are at on of the refueling stations, your stash of balls can be increased only if robots herd balls into the corner. If you need to be able to herd balls into a corner in order to get balls loaded into your machine, then why not just pick up off the floor?

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

I think choosing not to have a collector would be a bad decision. What do you have to loose:

-Weight: no, with this field you want to be as close to the weight limit as possible
-Space: no, if you can't collect balls you will not be able to do much else with the space
-Power consumption: no, again without a collector you will just be driving anyways

...did I miss any thing?

Honestly with this particular competition, you have almost nothing to loose. Go for it!

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

A key difference between 2006 and 2009 is that the scoring pieces were recycled in 2006. score, put the ball back into play.

For 2009, once scored, the balls are out of play. to get them back into play, youneed to be able to quickly herd them to the payload specialists or pick them up into your robot.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

That there is definitely a point to consider, especially if your team is considering herding balls to human player.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

Whether a ball vacuum "sets apart the men from the boys" isn't really the most important question in whether you should design one into your robot. I thinkit's obvious that a robot with an effective vacuum is more attractive than an identical robot without that vacuum, but that's not the the only question that determines whether you should go with one or not. The benefits of a vacuum are obvious, but you do need to look at the potential costs associated with one.

It's highly unlikely that an effective vacuum would be the only difference between the two robots. A ball vacuum is going to take addtional time, space, weight, and materials on your robot. If adding a vacuum to your robot's design pushes your completion date back a week or more, then you need to consider if your robot would be better off with a vacuum, or an extra week of practice time for the drivers. If it pushes you over weight, or reduces the effectiveness of your other systems, you need to consider that. Most importantly, if it would be a serious technical stretch for your team to complete it successfully, then you should be having serious second thoughts. A non-working vacuum on which you've spent significant time space and weight is a much, much larger detriment to your robot than not having one in the first place.

So, if your team is fully capable of designing, building, and integrating a ball vacuum in the next 3.5 weeks, then yes it would be beneficial. But if it's realistically going to take longer than 4 weeks from now... It's probably not the best idea for your team.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

I think you guys are missing a point here. if you aim not to pick up and score balls, you become a defender. As a defender you want to do whatever possible to prevent the opposing alliance from scoring. there is two ways of doing this. One you move so fast they can't get balls in your trailer, and two covering your trailer. the latter is illegal as of team update two, so you'd have to put all your effort into speed. which for this game isn't really important, or very easy for that matter. and it would be close to impossible to control.

so it wouldn't be worth the saved space to not have some kind of manipulator, because it doesn't help you out much without one.

this is just my take on the situation though. if you disagree, say how you feel about it

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

If you're a defender, you can try to control the position of yours opponents. Keep them near your payload specialists, keep them away from their empty cells, etc.
It's not just defending your own trailer.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

I think being able to collect the balls is important. I believe herding will be difficult since we are unable to expand. I find it highly likely your lose balls when herding.

Also things like to end up at the point of lowest potential so there will probably be a decent amount of cells on the floor.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

Hmm... how about not really collecting the balls from the floor and not really getting them from human player? Have a mechanism in front that's spinning at 5,000 rpm and has little forks. I am sure you will be throwing lots of balls into the audience. You will be the crowd's favorite. :)

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

i only read the first few posts and im not sure if anyone said this, but just remember that the hp's accuracy isnt going to be as good as 06. this is because of the wall in front oh him/her that he/she has to ark the ball over

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

edit -- whoops, s_forbes beat me to it! See <G05> from the 2006 rules.

If a team chooses not to pick up off the floor simply because it's too complex for the capabilities of the build team, that's a great strategy move; if they do it well they will complement their alliance greatly. Otherwise, picking up from the floor is, in my opinion, a MUST DO for the last 30 seconds of the game for at least 1 bot on every alliance.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

The safety shield ("Alliance Station Wall") was there in 2006 as well, and was the same height (6.5 feet) as this year.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

Personally I think the scores will be about the same for for every match, and the only difference will be the extra balls picked up and scored from the ground, or super cells. We've built the goal and moved it around and found it not that difficult to shoot, therefore usually all 6 teams will average out the same in PS shots (barring exceptional or poor shooters). Therefore if your alliance bots aren't affecting the score and the other alliances are, you will lose. With all the movement on the field herding is kind of automatic and unintentional, so designing for that is kind of redundant.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

Keep in mind, in order to load your robot from the payload specialist, you must stand still, something making you an extremely attractive target in this game, either for the opposing payload specialists or for the opposing bots. There is nowhere to hide.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

If those people think you will only have the opportunity to pick up twice during a match, I would argue that they are horribly mistaken. Consider for a second the number of balls in play. Even if only 10 balls from each team ends up on the floor, that is still 60 balls available for gathering. I think there will be a multitude of balls on the floor with the misses from hp's and bots. Let's not forget that we will be shooting at moving targets either from a moving bot, over a 6.5" wall, or from a seated position. How about the autonomous modes that try to score their 7 starting balls in an enemy? From my experience with autonomous, it is more likely than not that this will lead to 7 balls on the floor.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

You can do a lot to reduce the accuracy of opposing PSs, if you think about it. At long ranges, simply moving semi-erratically will be more than sufficient. When you're at a dead stop being loaded by your PS, you can pretty easily make things very difficult on the opponent PS that's behind the same alliance station. If you slide in sideways or back in so your trailer is snug against the wall, it's going to be a much trickier shot for that PS. If you back in, you can make it trickier for the OUTPOST PS and robots to score on you as well, though you're then making it a little tougher for your PS to reload you.

Still, if you work the angles and field elements appropriately, sitting still doesn't have to equate with being a super easy target.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

I think that what is critical is to come up with a strategy for your team.
Assess what your resources are... can you build 2-3 different mechanisms?
Can you build 1-2 mechanisms? How much money do you have?

These all play into picking a strategy.

In ANY strategy ... being able to pick up balls is going to be a plus.
NOW that said, It is NOT a requirement for many strategies.

Don't try and use AIM HIGH as an example because human players did not score in AIM HIGH... and the other major difference (also pointed out already) is that the balls were recycled... so if you were getting scored on ..you had plenty to load up your robots...

But AIM HIGH IS a good example of the diversity in robots and how several different strategies can be employed to help an alliance win.

Pick a good strategy...figure out what it takes to accomplish the strategy...
Prioritize your mechanisms.....
Make hard decisions as the weeks go by...

but Pick a Good Strategy... stick with it and make it drive your design.
Please Please Please... don't mix up mechanisms with strategies...

Design cannot drive strategy...

It is my belief that there will space on the field for a number of good strategies...some of which don't require picking up the balls from the floor...

I also think that several very sound strategies depend on picking up balls from the floor.

thanks and good luck !!!

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

I think it is important when comparing to 2006 to keep in mind that there are 50% more balls on the field this year than in 2006. What this means is up to you.

Despite this, balls will be much more of a commodity this year than in 06. Your team has 60 balls to start off with, and thats it. Whether you shoot those balls from your robot or your human player when your run out, thats it. Unlike in 06 when you could count on more balls coming in from the other team.

Lets assume that between HPs and bots, each aliance has an 80% accuracy.
At this point the teams are tied and out of balls.

The difference between which alliance wins, and which loses will be the one the one that can get those 20% missed balls from both teams off the floor and into the opposing robot.

This means all those valuable missed balls from the other team are sitting on the floor!

Every ball of theirs you score is one less they have to score on you!

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

More generally:
Every ball you remove from play is one less they have to score against you.

If you're ahead on points, hoarding balls is a good strategy. Scoring them isn't necessarily as important as keeping your opponents from scoring them. Herding/vacuuming well is good defense, as long as you're not missing your shots on your opponent.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

Interesting point... By itself it is a great strategy until the endgame hits. If you estimate that you're up by 20 points, you could easily lose because of 2 super cells and being out-maneuvered in the second half of the match.

I suppose it'd have to be a game-time decision as to whether to take the risk; on the one hand you may be able to score your entire hopper in the last 20 seconds to negate the super cells. On the other hand, teams may start pinning bots that hoard game pieces, as was seen in 2005.

Hmmmm.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

If your robot can't pick up balls, herding them out of the way of opposing robots that can pick them up will be a good thing to do. I think we might see some drivers skilled at the broadside skid. Run the robot up to speed, aim at a group of balls to herd toward your corner, then skid the robot sideways using the broadside of the robot and trailer to herd the balls.

Re: Picking up balls or not
 

I'm expecting the super cells to have little impact in most matches. Given the fixed, predictable time frame for scoring them, you should be able to dodge them. That is, unless you've allowed yourself to be pinned near an opponent's FUELING STATION or whatever. But if you've allowed that to happen, you're probably behind on points from moon rocks being dumped into your trailer anyways.