<G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

The GDC has responded: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=10994

At least it's pre-penalties.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

So, it may be in our best interest to not win by an infinite factor. Perhaps they'll also amend <G14> to increase the penalty, up to where the alliance loses all it's playing pieces for a match...:D

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

In an extra dose of bad luck, you scored 45 points, and the other team scored only 10. Unfortunately you have 40 points in penalties from throwing all the super cells out, or ..... Not only do you loose, but then you are all penalized in the next round.

Good to know. Let's not plan on doing that.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Still think they should of made a minimal point cap on it, So one alliance has to have at least like 15 or 20 points before the 2x or 3x rules apply.

Imo:rolleyes:

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Oh well, the games must go on!

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

This restriction is going to make pre-match alliance communication even more important.
Needless to say, things are now a little more complicated...

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I believe that this makes for a more challenging game and supports gracious proffesionalism. We might half to score on ourselves once and a while so what. It also limits the chances of teams relying on super cells

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

2 purely defensive alliances, one team scores 2 points by a human player mistake and they get a <G14>. [SARCASM]WOW thats fair[/SARCASM]

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I think this reminds us that to excel in this year's game, you have to think about more then just being able to score and avoid being scored on...this year, if you want a high rank, you have to allow yourself to be scored on while making sure that you make more points yourself.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Looks like the GDC is digging in its heels on this one. How about we just treat it as another challenge unique to this game, strategize/design for it and move on?

I've got this sneaking suspicion that Chris Fultz and Andy Baker designed this rule purely so they could dispose of it at IRI. Same with <G22> last year.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Somehow, I was kind of expecting this to happen. But, for reasons I don't understand, I still really like <G14>. I think it's going to make match dynamics really interesting. What if we get matches with no super cells at all? Hmm...

Anyway, since it's here to stay, you might as well embrace it. Whining didn't help anything, and now that we know absolutely for sure the rule means what it says, more whining is completely pointless.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I don't understand this point of view.

You're telling me that your alliance cannot have 1 person (one of the commanders... maybe?) watch and (approximately) count points and alert the drivers and payload specialists that you've only allowed 'X' points and to stop at your payload specialist to toss a few in your own trailer (by accident, OFC :p )?

Seems to me that a minimum point cap is fairly useless, and that the more difficult situation is a ~20 to 10 score where the game could change on a single throw (supercell).

Also, TBH, I do not believe that the loss of a single empty cell or supercell will tip the balance of many games and, in fact, this adds a bit more strategy to the pre-match alliance choices.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Well the good news is, this simplifies our strategy a bit. We can give the defensive moves a lower priority, and we don't have to worry about going nuts in autonomous to keep the PS from scoring too many. All we'll do for now is score while avoiding being pinned.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

That was the entire point in suggesting a minimum score. At low scores the number of points that a supercell can give will very much change the result of the match because double is less than 15.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I agree with this completely. I think a lot of people (especially those who are complaining about how it's unfair to "punish" teams "for being successful") are not thinking hard enough about how this rule is going to play out. There are other empty/super cells available on the field. Also, with three teams on each alliance, that's three chances for each alliance to lose empty/super cells- think about it, a lot of matches could have both alliances starting without all of their game pieces. Plus... this is only the subtraction of one or two game pieces which have to be exchanged and scored in the last 20 seconds of the game. Are most teams really going to be able to score a full four or more in that short of the time period? Probably not. Are they going to make that big of a difference, especially to alliances which are already strong? Probably not.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Well, there goes my strategy of blowing out the opponent and then committing flagrant safety and sportsmanship violations to keep the margin close :D

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Is it important whether or not it's "fair"? That hypothetical team obviously isn't going to be affected by a missing super cell.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to this rule a team could go 0-12 (or whatever, depending on the number of matches) and play every match with the exception of their first one down 1 or more empty cells because they happen to paired with at least one team from an alliance who doubled up their opponets in the previous match. I'm not suggesting this will happen (I'm sure the odds are against it) but it is theoretically possible.

More likely, scenario - Team A's alliance gets tripled up by Team B's alliance. Next time through Team A is on an alliance with team B and get's penalized 2 empty cells because of it.

Interesting.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

You also have to build a robot that doesn't depend on using super cells because more than likely you will lose a few because of alliance pairings.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

And this is a bad thing because ?

Learn to be adapatable. If you are missing a empty/supercell then adapt your strategy and move on. It's like playing chess without your queen (queens gambit?), most people are loath to do so because it takes them out of their comfort zone ... just like a lot of things in this years game (and in life)

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I recently posted a question on Q and A concerning how G14 will be used in eliminations. I am sure others have noticed this too but by rule, if an alliance doubled the score of the other alliance during eliminations...it would result in a loss of 3 supercells in the next match...one for each team...

A 3x result in the first match would mean a loss of 6 supercells.......

I asked for a clarificatoin on how this rule would be used in elimination rounds.

In my opinion.... the rule should not be used in elimination rounds...
If there is some other reason for the rule other than trying to make the matches closer so less experienced teams can still be in close matches... I would like to hear it... I can see this for the qual matches...

Eliminations should be just that... the better alliance wins...
What could actually result is a really good alliance beating a team badly in the first match... being handicapped in the 2nd match and losing and then when the third match is played blowing out the other team again but NOW they have to worry about the next elimination round... they will again start that match handicapped...

I just fail to see the reasoning behind the use of this rule during eliminations if we are trying to get the best alliance....
the carryover issue is interesting...

It is sort of like World Cup Soccer and the yellow card rule that states if you have two yellow cards you have to sit out the next match... even if its the final...

The only difference is that there is no real penalty or transgression going on when you get nailed by G14 You are just trying to do your best to play the game as designed...

Yellow Cards in World Cup are for pretty bad penalties that are real physical violations on the field... different I think

In my opinion at least...

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

things are a little harder now...

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Because it makes the game one dimensional and otherwise boring.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Heck yea, the Queen makes for great bait! This is by far my favorite opening as White :) ... too bad I get annihilated by an opponent who enjoys playing it as much as I do :ahh: .

After seeing the two NFL Championship games last night, I have a slightly new opinion about G14. Teams who utilize supercells alot are more like the Ravens/Steelers game -- defensive strategy is key, and they'll just hold on until the end. Robots and feelings will get hurt along the way, and overall it's a very drawn-out game.

Yet teams who utilize their robots to score more with moonrocks and only a couple of supercells are more like the Cardinals/Eagles game -- more potential for awe-inspiring game-winning plays that get the crowd going.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I think you are on to something:yikes:

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

In our team, this rule has been the subject of useless debate for a LONG period of time, and it boils down to having a little mercy on other players. Also, if your robot is good enough to smoke your opponent, you must have enough strategy to play without supercells.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

when i saw this rule i thought "well that is not fair" and then i rethought that and said "well if your team is good and scores 10 and the other team scored 0 then you have to take something away...":D

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

ummm- why?

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

i dont think that their reasioning is very good given the fact that if you can do 0 x 3 is always 0 then you should also therefore be also able to also divide the sum you get from that by 3 to get the origonal number which with 0 is impossible. Therefore it is impossible to have a number any times higher then 0 because the outcome can't be done.

besides the whole problem that 0 x infinity is equal to 0 and therefore any number greater then 0 can't be a multiplication of 0 because the number needed to get 0 as a multiplication of the score would be undefined and therefore couldn't be done.

correct me if you think i'm wrong

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I think realistically that there will never be any alliances that score zero. With the relative proximity of the human players to their targets at the beginning of autonomous AND the low acceleration from the slick wheels and surface... there should be at least 2 balls in every cart during autonomous...This is a low score of 12 points...

So realistically we are looking at something around a minimum of 6 additional balls being scored at some time and NO scoring by the poor scoring alliance before we see this G14 penalty.

It will be interesting to see what the low score will be.
Now of course, if a team does not show up... then they won't score the 2 balls so we could get a lower minimum.

I get a sneaky suspicion that members of the GDC have already played this out somewhere... looking at the relative rate of success of thrown balls and the possible scores on the field both during autonomous and teleop...and they have learned a great deal more about this than we have at this point...

Now let's all just suck it up and play the game...its just another challenge to overcome and we like challenges don't we?

If this were easy.... everyone would do it...

R

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

well bob Steele it is possible because what happens if none of the opponents robots work. if that happens there is every chance it could happen

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

The three PSs would also have to not show up to have no chance for a score.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Simply put, if your opponents score zero, it is your fault! Yes, I and others will blame your alliance for your opponents' score, or lack thereof. Pick -- you ...

A.) Didn't help them with their bot to help it work properly
B.) Played a purely defensive game which is, to be honest, boring
C.) Succombed to their <G14> vindictiveness by not scoring in your own trailer(s)
D.) A combination of or all of the above.

Maybe it's just me, and maybe I'm just in one of those moods, but I won't have any sympathy.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Is it? Wait until you take Calc 1 and get l'Hopital's Rule. Infinity times (or divided by) zero could be a real number, like 1, 2, -2, 100...

Unfortunately, there are only certain conditions in which this holds true, and an FRC competition's scoring isn't one of them.

And, as pointed out, your opponents would have to show up with no robot or PS, which means they didn't show up at all. That's not going to happen. The queuing people are too good at getting at least one robot/PS per alliance out to the field.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

well they don't neccisarly have to show up with no robot. all that needs to have happen is to have the one robot on their side malfunction or break in the game or to have a working robot with its scoring mechanism disabled.

ive been in games in the past where that has happened considering the fact that one year that happened to our robot.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

If there's a working robot, and it breaks mid-match, it has a PS with it, doesn't it? The PS ought to be able to score at least one shot.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

true however they are aiming at moving targets, with a limited amo supply, and you can never rule out that their shooter might just stink or have bad luck.

some teams may not neccisarly test their shooters out if their normal shooters get sick or they were like us the first year and didn't neccisarly pick on skill but tryed to get everyone a chance to do it.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

l'Hospital is where you go if you get injured in France or Quebec.

l'Hôpital is everyone's favorite French mathmatician.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I always saw it spelled the way I had it. Oh, well, editing previous post.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Honestly, it is in your best interest to boost your opponents score, because the losing alliances score is used to calculate seeds, so it was always in your best interest to score on yourself, this is just the first game that makes it really easy and sensible.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

They're actually equivalent. Hôpital is the current French spelling of the word for hospital. Hospital is an archaic spelling of the same thing. L'Hospital was probably how the mathematician spelled it, back in the day.... (In this case, the "s" is silent in French, so they sound the same.)

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I don't care how badly mangled your arithmetic logic may be, I will posit that it just doesn't matter. The entire question is irrelevant and not worth arguing. Why? Because we will never see a zero point score in a regulation match of Lunacy.

This is patently obvious to anyone that has spent more than five minutes really trying to understand the flow of the game. The match starts with all three of the Payload Specialists on the Alliance armed with a minimum of 13 available Moon Rocks and located within 24 inches of an open, static target. They can immediately start pelting the opposing trailer located right in front of them as fast as they are able. Even if the opposing robot and trailer accelerate away as quickly as they are able, a typically competent player will be able to get off four shots before the trailer is even remotely out of range.

All the robots on your alliance don't work? Who cares. All the robots on the opposing alliance are traction-control demons and accelerate twice as fast as every other robot? Who cares. The opposing human players are all retirees from the Harlem Globetrotters and the alliance captain is Meadowlark Lemon? Who cares. The only way you get a zero point score is if all three of your Payload Specialists show up with their arms tied behind their backs, wearing double-blindfolds, and throwing the Moon Rocks with their feet.

How certain am I about this? Well, let me put it this way:

If in the entirety of the 2009 FRC competition season, there is more than one legitimate match (honestly played, in which both alliances are trying to play within the rules and intent of the game, and neither alliance is intentionally avoiding scoring) in which either alliance attains a pre-penalty score of zero (0) points, I will swear off Krispy Kreme donuts for one calendar year.

Yes, I am that certain of it. So can we just stop this whole silly discussion now?

-dave



.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Here here...
I totally agree... my minimum estimate was based on the same thing..
4 shots... 50% accuracy...(which is pretty poor based on our practice to date..)
minimum 2 balls per trailer...12 points ...

In the event that all THREE other teams don't show up...
AND no human players show up at all...

I would like for someone to show me where this has ever happened before..
All three robots for an alliance not showing up...

Thanks Dave...

Let's all get to work on the real challenges of the game...

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I agree with Dave. With one exception: I would say that a good soccer player who could aim using his ears could still score.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Not in a competition match, but I recall practice day at the Detroit Regional, Rack-n-Roll. No robot showed up for one of the alliances - and they won anyway, 2-0! (One of the HP's flung a ringer onto the rack.)

I don't think KK needs to have any worry about a significant loss of corporate profits from Dave's wager.

Back to Hawk's mathematical argument, the wording of <G14> is "more than twice" and "more than triple" the opponent's score. Given a wierd fluke that a team manages to defy all odds and does score zero, the other alliance's non-zero score is clearly "more than triple" that zero. Three times zero is zero.

I've been trying to figure how low the lowest scores will be. I too am convinced that most teams will be able to sink at least one or two balls by their PS at the beginning of the match. Add in another couple of lucky shots later in the match, and even an alliance with three robots that can't score should still get a minimum of 10 points.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Prior to being a part of the GDC this season, I'm betting you probably would not have seen the need to spell out an exact definition for "honestly played". :D

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

[offtopic]That is somewhat of a misrepresentation of L'Hopital's rule. Dividing by zero is still undefined, L'Hopital's rule uses properties of derivatives to find a value for a limit when it seems undefined at first. I still can't divide by zero, but I can tell you what a function is doing when it is approaching dividing by zero. (yeah the difference is small, but one is impossible, the other doesn't have to be) Also, if you instead use a limit that approaches x/0, there is no reason for it to be equal to +infinity, -infinity is just as valid (and much less than 3)
[/offtopic]

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Amen! I doubt we will see many pre-penalty scores even in the single digits. Even extremely weak alliances should score, at a minimum, in the 25 point range.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Even then I'm pretty sure someone could score ... hacky-sack anyone?

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I'm sure he felt the need to specify it simply to ensure no two alliances would collaborate to deprive him of his donuts!

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Did he say no Photoshopping? Knowing some of the characters on CD, I would have thought that should be at the top of the list.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

He did say that it had to actually happen in a match. I'm sure he would take the few minutes to look at a regional's posted match scores. Although you could try to get away with it for a Thursday practice match. ;)

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

i have seen matches where none of the robots on an allience showed up in a match

besides we are dealing with the what-ifs since though the possiblility is small it still none the less exsists.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

That might actually be a fairly high scoring match... seeing as all the immobile trailers would be in front of human players armed with orbit balls...

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Yeah... 20 per PS. 2-3' to the trailer. YOU try and get a zero score! (It's fairly easy to do, but your PS and every other PS on your alliance would have to deliberately miss.) You can get 128 points pretty quickly. (2 per ball, 60 moon rocks, 4 empty cells per alliance)

Oh, yeah: I'm pretty sure Dave isn't counting practice matches.

[offtopic] Luke, you're right. It is an oversimplification.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Unless I missed it in this long thread, no one has pointed out that if the other team has no points, remember, you are towing their goal behind your robot. ANY cell in your trailer counts for them, even if your PS threw it there...hint...hint....

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

i forgot to mention this before but wouldn't an allience with no ability to win (for instance if all of its robots did't work) would try not to score anything simply to deprive your teams of supercells next round?

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

It's possible. Dave still gets his KKs, though. If the matches are played as intended, it won't happen.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Probably not. For one, one of the opposing alliance bots could be on their next alliance, and then i would hurt them. Also, ranking points are determined by the losing team's score, so it is in both team's best interest for the losing team to have as many points as possible.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

I don't know if you've realized it yet, but your wording has saved you from a strike one...

http://www2.usfirst.org/2009comp/eve...chresults.html (match 42)
http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/match/2009gt_qm42

Cheers! :p

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Is there something unique about that particular match? There were tons of other zero scores in the first week alone, but FRC-Spy indicates that they all had penalties.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

Interesting, I haven't parsed out the penalties yet.

Nothing special about the match, I just noticed it as I parsed some data earlier today.

Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some
 

There were penalties. The KK empire is safe from collapse.