Re: Rule G32
 

Let me see if I get this... I'm still working on my BUMPER RULE DEGREE...

If we have an opening in our robot's BUMPER PERIMETER to allow game pieces to enter - with a roller or conveyer for example - then this roller is outside the BUMPER ZONE. Should another robot's corner enter this opening, and the contact with the other robot is further back inside the robot than the BUMPER PERIMETER, then that contact is illegal.

Since you can't predict where you will make contact with another robot (could easily be outside BUMPER ZONE - deeper in their robot) you can't have an opening in your BUMPERS ZONE/PRIMETER that allows a robot to enter.

From what it seems then, most of the chassis/designs that have been shared here on CD are not legal because a corner of a robot could enter the opening.
(816, 1511, 1856, 949, 1712, 935, 842 all have relatively wide openings where contact could easlily be made behind the BUMPER PERIMETER edge of the robot.

Are we all in violation of <G32C/E>?

-Mr. Van
Robodox

Re: Rule G32
 

Because it's a game rule, we're only in violation if the contact occurs during a game. It's not illegal to design a robot that is capable of making illegal contact.

As a practical matter, I doubt that this rule will be enforced with the degree of definitiveness that the manual suggests. ("Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY.")

Re: Rule G32
 

I don't believe so. Providing your bar 10" above the floor is in the vertical project of the BUMPER PERIMETER, I believe that any contact within that zone is okay. The rule (<G32C>) specifically states "any contact within the unprotected region (including the vertical projection of the unprotected region) will be considered incidental contact and will not be penalized." There is no mention of the other robot's BUMPER PERIMETER.

Re: Rule G32
 

Ah! I think I get it now. If contact is made at the BUMPER PERIMETER of OUR robot, then we are legal as per <G32C>.

Thanks for clearing it up!

-Mr. Van

Re: Rule G32
 

This is how I've heard this rule interpreted as well

Re: Rule G32
 

Not necessarily. Your BUMPER ZONE extends through your robot, everywhere between 1 and 7 inches from the floor.
It could be. If you contact another robot, above (or conceivably below) it's BUMPER ZONE, and inside it's BUMPER PERIMETER, the contact is illegal.

Remember though, that the other alliance cannot make you commit a penalty. If they contact you, it's not held against you.

Re: Rule G32
 

Who's to say who is making contact if both robots are moving?

If we take Gary's interpretation, then it seems as if all of those robots with openings in their bumpers and chassis to allow game pieces in are potentially allowing for contact outside the BUMPER ZONE and inboard of the BUMPER PERIMETER - especially if the other robot has no superstructure at it's extreme edge.

That'd make 80% of the robot designs that have been shared on CD penalty-prone.

I think that iCurtis has it right - <G32C> doesn't say anything about the other robot's BUMPER PERIMETER.

Or am I being a lunatic here?

-Mr. Van
Robodox

Re: Rule G32
 

Interesting... Imagine a ram robot with an 18" long, 6" wide, 8" tall (no superstructure) corner projection. Wrapped with bumpers, the projection is 12" wide. An example is a wide drive, C-frame rookie KOP frame robot that did not get around to making any ball handling superstructure, and just converted to a plywood covered C box. Can it go poking around in other robots intake areas without penalty?
What rules would be in violation?

Re: Rule G32
 

G32
Specifically - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS or TRAILERS are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed.
Your projection could be considered as something intended to damage or entangle.

Also
In all cases involving ROBOT-to-ROBOT or ROBOT-to-TRAILER contact, the TEAM may receive a PENALTY and/or their ROBOT may be disqualified if the interaction is inappropriate or excessive.
If a referee decides that your contact is inappropriate your robot can be penalized/disqualified.

Re: Rule G32
 

Good discussion all..
"any contact by another ROBOT within the unprotected region (including the vertical projection of the unprotected region) will be considered incidental contact and will not be penalized.

Re Gary's interpretation of 32c. When I read it, I assumed that the "region" referred to the area inside the perimeter that was unprotected rather than the vertical plane above the perimeter. The projection of the vertical plane just extended this "region" to the whole robot height. (I see now that this could be in error)

To me it meant that any contact inside an open area was incidental since the designer decided to allow robots to penetrate to gain moon rock sweep up advantage but also allowed the internal contact. So there should not be a penalty if the penetrating robot causes damage to the open robot internals....however, what if the open robot causes damage to the penetrator (assuming the penetration is not malicious)? Well, since incidental contact is ruled, no penalty...a little unfair unless 32e comes into play somehow.

With my interpretation or Gary's, there is going to be some hard hitting with wide mouth robots running around. Seems the game rules allow this although it can be unsafe at times. So as designers, if our robot has corners less than 120 degrees, then these corners should be protected with strong structure at least 3 to 4 ins above ball height.... and hope that the penetrator has perimeter structure to match. jgrabers skinny rookie robot would still be a problem unless the rules were changed to force corners to have structure like I mentioned above.

If wide mouth robots attack other robots (say in an attempt to pin against a wall) rather than the trailer and cause damage the refs should have some rule to penalize this behavior.

Gary's response
"If your opening is so large that a significant corner of the other robot could be enveloped by it and now your 10" bar contacts an interior portion of that robot, you are not OK"

assumed that G32e is still in force. Seems we need a rule clarification here still.

Re: Rule G32
 

An interesting hindsite that would have avoided many of these issues with ball harvesters: make the bumper zone 12-18" agl and require full stringline perimeter bumpers. Trailers would have to have them too. Too late to do that now.

Since the intent seems to be a bumper car game, not a ball and socket game, I agree it would be a good idea to design your robot with a 12-16" agl superstructures on acute corner and above ball harvester openings. Someone mentioned a movable crashbar to protect the bumper zone (and to push balls) when not harvesting.