<G14> during eliminations
 

We recently submitted the following question to QA

Default G14 penalties
During elimination rounds, if an alliance has a penalty for scoring more than 2X the opposing team's score, will the penalty be 3 supercells or 1 supercell in the next match?
In regular team non-surrogate team play, each team would receive a 1 supercell penalty in the next match. This would seem to indicate that during the elimination rounds this would result in 3 supercells being lost in the subsequent elimination match. Can you please clarify how G14 will be used during the elimination rounds?

Thank you for your help
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GDC response:
Rule <G14> is applied in the same way during the Qualification Rounds and the Elimination Rounds.
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The way we read this...

If you had a terrific alliance and outscored your opponents in the first round of quarterfinals 3X You would lose ALL of your supercells... 2 per team X 3 teams in your alliance... for a total of 6 lost supercells (I didn't ask the question if this would carry over to the next match.

I can see an interesting strategy in which an alliance who has won the first match and seems to be losing the 2nd match dumps balls into its own alliance in order to gain the supercell advantage in the third match of the elimination.

I wonder how anyone is going to keep track of this during the qualifications...maybe they should have some kind of white flag they put on robots to identify them for future matches. A "2X" flag and a "3X flag" goes into your flag holder at the end of the match if you transgress.

Your have to "wear" this badge of "dishonor" until your next match...

Or maybe they should just put a big 2x or 3x on the forehead of the commanders for the teams that will have disobeyed the rule...

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

The GDC has already answered this question (I'll be honest I don't feel like looking up the quote). The field control system will be keeping track of <G14> penalties from match to match.

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

Now that is a spectacular idea! I'm thinking some stickers or outrageous hats are in order. :cool:

But yes, the field will track the implications of <G14> as seen in this Q&A.*


*Update #3 had not been published when I wrote the question.

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

I don't understand the big drama with <G14>, it seems to me like a rule people just aren't willing to give in that it's a rule.

Have you ever been the team that is brutally beaten by the #1 alliance? It's not the best feeling, getting completely wrecked in the QFs. It's a handicap that the GDC saw needed, trying to dodge this rule is completely un-GP in my eyes. If you're about to double their score, stop scoring? Or make yourself look good to the scouts and get a 2x or 3x G14 penalty. I think I'd be looking for a bunch of G14s in my alliance partner pick.

I think people are over reacting to G14, and just move on.

My two cents

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

I think there a lot of people who'd agree with you on that. That said, for people who build a new robot and play an entirely new game year after year, we're incredibly resistant to change. Who'da thunk?

That's not quite true. Dave has said that <G14> does not exist to level the playing field. I don't think anyone's trying to dodge <G14>. Some people are actively campaigning against it, while others are content to sit back and watch the show.

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

I've seen this said all over the place, something like this just doesn't seem morally right to me

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

Yes I have. No, it's not the best feeling, but a worse one would be for the other team to stop scoring because they're so far ahead of us. Even worse than having the other team stop scoring or being beaten would be for the other team to score for us because they're so far ahead.

Being beaten by the best is one thing, do do so poorly that the other team has to stop competing (or score for you), is another.

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

That'll be hard... though I guess each trailer can last several matches. Tracking which team is in which pole will be hard, though.

All right, own up: who's built a flag holder already when it's not required?

OK, I'll settle for the sticker...

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. My questions in regard to G14 are not meant to be contrary to it. I just want to understand it as I understand any rule. With understanding of the way the rule will be used comes the ability to make a strategy to play the game.

In years past we have never had a penalty that would affect a different game than the one in which it occurred. This is new and I asked the GDC to determine how it would play out in eliminations.

I am not sure if it has occurred to many teams that you get a triple hit in eliminations from the rule. Alliances need to plan for this contingency.

As far as any action on the field being "morally" wrong... I believe that on the field you play by the rules... someone else has set those rules... and I don't think that we need to be mixing up the GDC with any "higher" power.

FIRST competition is about doing your best to succeed in the game. The only thing that most people don't see is that the "game" is the game of LIFE and not the robot game.

In the robot game you need to be cognizant of all the rules and how they play out. Strategies are just as important as that great "shooter" mechanism or that fantastic crab drive. Those are tributes to a fine team and a fine group of mentors working together to show students how real life works. Making strategies and working with other teams in Alliances is also a great exercise that speaks to us directly about what life is going to be.
All the pieces fit together so that students (and mentors) learn more about themselves so they can play the real game better...

I hope everyone learns a great deal from G14...
and from everything else they do in FIRST.... It is really all about the learning.... and the relationships we build with students and mentors...

Good luck in your build, your season and your life!!!

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

i still do not see why you would not ignore g14 and blow out the other allaince in qualification matches, in order to get a higher ranking.

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

<G14> does not mention penalties. I wish people would stop referring to it as a "penalty rule".

I would call its provisions a "handicap", but it's not a penalty. I wouldn't even consider it a punishment. It seems to me like a reasonable experiment this year to try to help make the rankings better reflect the actual "consistent goodness factor" of a team and its robot. If you're really so good as to regularly outscore a competitive opponent by a factor of three, I don't think the loss of a couple of twenty-point bonus opportunities should upset you all that much.

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

Depends on your details within set of morals.
Point shaving is not morally right either, but this rule is essentially enforcing that.

Asking your students to not do their best might be considered morally wrong too, but you have said instead that is noble.

Should the #8 alliance have an equal shot as the #1 alliance? There is already a serpentine draft, now G14. Maybe the #1 alliance should have to wait 60 seconds before it is their turn to play.

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All that being said, it is a rule and we should follow it. Some will use it as a strategy though. Many of the teams complaining the loudest remeber the 2002 game where you could nullify another teams victory by shaving points on your side (QPs were 3x the loosers score for the winners, and the loosers score for the loosers thus if the looser scored 0 it was like the match never happened).

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

If your alliance is capable of pounding the opposing alliance into mush the previous match what does it matter if they have supercells if you can so readily outscore them with ease? They'll probably just probably be more inclined to score evenn more points so the supercells won't be a factor. I think the supercell is this year's stack. A major game component that'll end up not being as big a factor as it was first thought out to be.

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

Enforcing <G14> during eliminations makes sense to me, kind of. Carrying <G14> over from the last qualifying match to elims doesn't at all. I can imagine that bubble teams (as in, teams you'd expect to be picked toward the end of the second round) being burned by playing their last qualifying match with a team that's too good to care about <G14>. Ed is right that super cells will probably not make as big of a difference as some are expecting, but all other things being equal, I'm going to pick the team that's bringing all their cells to our alliance.

Re: <G14> during eliminations
 

Well, almost. Your alliance only has 4 Super Cells; you lose all of those. You also lose two of your 4 Empty Cells.

Somewhat troublesome. I'm not sure what to do about that, or whether anything should be done about it.

Except that your flag holder gets left on the field with your trailer for the next team to use. (There is no on-robot flag holder this year.) A Q&A stated that the field management system would keep track of <G14>, but they haven't specified how that works.

Because you would not get a higher ranking. Read the rules on Qualifying Points and Ranking Points carefully (section 9.3). For several years it has been in a team's best interest to win while allowing their opponents to score a maximum number of points. <G14> only reinforces that.