Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

I came across an article earlier today about a high school basketball team who won a match 100-0, and is now seeking to forfeit their win. They have apologized for their margin of victory, and commended the losing team on their strength of character for continuing for the duration of the match.

While I was reading the article, I kept making connections to FIRST- the concept of competition and Gracious Professionalism simultaneously, and the controversy over this year's rule <G14>. I've been mulling over this article, and over the concept of a blowout match, and I'm still not sure how I want to react to this. Some of the statements in the article include, "it is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened" and, "a victory without honor is a great loss". Those are some pretty heavy statements.

I'm bringing this to others in the FIRST community to see how you feel about this. There are a lot of questions swirling in my mind- is it more honorable to play to your fullest when you are clearly dominating a match, or should you back off at a point? If you are clearly losing a match by a great margin, would you prefer that your opponents to give their all or take it easy on you? Is it shameful to win a match by a huge margin? Did this team do the right thing in apologizing to the winning team and asking to forfeit the match?

Obviously, there are no right answers to these questions, so please respect the opinions of others in this thread, even if they are radically different from yours. My intent is not to start a flame war, but to start a thought-provoking discussion on issues that relate to FIRST as well as to the real world.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

If I were on the losing team, I would not accept a forfeit from the winners.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

1. People need to understand, that a match in FRC is 2 minutes of craziness. In any match, if a team is not fully trying, then they might be open to a sneak up victory. Each alliance aims to win, their strategy is generally based off scoring the most amount of points in 2 minutes, and in some cases, maybe even limiting the other alliance's points.

In the basketball match, the players acted with a great amount of Gracious Professionalism. Basketball is about 2.5 hours of intense, analytical game play. Everyone is caught up in the moment, but none the less, the coaches should have understood at half time that they should probably back off, and let the other team *have a chance*. It was really bold of them to offer to forfeit their next match. I do not believe they should need to, but if they believe they must, then it is for them to decide if they wish to approach such extremes of humility.

As for the rule this year, I do not believe that an alliance can completely not have control over what they are doing. In many matches I have seen robots scoring for the other alliance, and this would be nothing new. My only concern is, in those exciting 2 minutes, what happens if things get out of control? People on the field are just content at driving and doing their best.

None the less, the amount of Gracious Professionalism is truly amazing. I applaud the members of the team, coaches and all, for showing such humility.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Same here. A match that you win 100-0 might not have much honor, but taking a match you lost as a win is undignified. And rather confusing.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

FIRST is about cooper-tition. I have always taken that to mean that everybody is going to work together to help the less able robots to work better, not to limit the working alliances from performing at their full capacity.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Personally, I think that if you are good at something, you should give it your all. I played on an all losing team one year and it was frustrating, but it wasn't terrible. I still had fun. Then, I played on an undefeated team. It was great, because we really played well together. If you're good at something, you shouldn't have to "tone it down" because your opponent isn't as good. They didn't have to play you. (my opinion, of course what that team did is nice.) (yet again, what's done is done, and they could have decided to put in the bench at half time)

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Also, I guarantee that someone will mess up their count (especially if live scoring isn't working) and lose a match trying to avoid a G14.
But seriously, who wants to watch the Cheesy Poofs park their bot in front of an opposing outpost and let the payload specialist (woo new jargon!) dump moonrocks in?

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

First, I want to re-iterate what the OP said - that with such a complex issue, many different viewpoints are possible and respectable. I also want to say that this is a fantastic idea for a thread and a great opportunity to allow us to examine the concept of GP in a new light.

I agree. My own opinion is that the winning team should not let up. They should definitely not forfeit - that's just rediculous.

Let's say that the team that was winning had let up and alllowed the other team to score a basket. There are two possibilities here: one, that the other team would realize that they were being allowed to score, and the other that they wouldn't.

In the first situation (they realize that the other team is slacking off), this poisons the possibility of future victories. What do I mean by this? Put yourself in the position of the losing team. You just scored, but only because the other team let you. However, let's say that three minutes later in the game, you saw a great scoring opportunity and took it. Wouldn't you suspect that the other team had simply allowed you to score again?

In the second situation, the winning team is implicitly deceiving the losing team by letting them score - in other words, they are lying to them. Some people might say that this is a good thing (a "white lie" perhaps). I disagree, though I'm not really interested in arguing the point, since there's no point to be argued. If you think lying to make people feel better is generally good, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.


Anyway - another interesting question. What should have been done? A few people have said (including myself) that the winning team should not forfeit. Several sources in the article said that they should have backed off at halftime. I disagree - but what should they have done? Definitely an open question, but again, here's my opinion:

If at all possible within the rules of the league, the coaches of the two teams should have met at halftime and talked things over, coming to some mutually agreeable decision. One possibility might have been for the losing team to forfeit, and continue play with mixed teams. Another would be for the winning team to mentor the losing team in how to play better (though this obviously has potential for ill will). Continuing play wasn't necessarily a bad idea - it just seems to me that there might have been more constructive things to do.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

I'm probably going to be in the minority here but ... here goes:

This is a competition, and to not do my best when we're on the competition field is unfair to my alliance partners and shows disrespect to my opponents and to the game itself. Therefore, when we are on the competition field, we will play the game as hard, and as well, as we can until the final horn sounds.

However, once we are off the competition field, we will help all who need help. Not just because of GP, but because it is right. We would rather lose because we helped someone, than win because we didn't.

Every year I teach my team the following: "This is a competition, and in a competition the goal is to win, however, how you achieve that goal shows the true measure of the person".

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

If I were losing by 100-nothing. I'd feel disappointed. If they let up, I'd be furious. I wouldn't mind them putting in their second string. But anything more then that would be a spit to the face.

If I were winning by 100-nothing. I'd feel sorry. I would not insult the opponent by giving them easy points or anything of the sort. However, I would probably switch to my second string. This would be for dual purpose. First, I don't want to beat them by too much and secondly I would be giving the bench warmers a chance to play.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

I agree with the statement that "it is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened." But now step back and find out why it happened. Academy suffers from a lack of resources (only 20 girls in the school to choose from) and was likely woefully underprepared. They haven't won in 4 years. The athletic association that schedules games should have procedures in place to avoid having unbalanced matchups like this in the first place. I know that's difficult to do - I scheduled youth soccer games for many years and it's hard to predict just which team will turn into a powerhouse and which team will implode.

So how does this compare with FRC? Rather than offering to forfeit the game, Covenant should take a GP attitude and offer to help Academy to improve. I've emailed them:

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

At least the winning team didn't score in the shutout team's basket.....

I saw the story on the news last night, and quite honestly, I got a very "fake, artificial, reactionary" vibe watching it. According to the story, fans of the winning team cheered each and every bucket down to the last seconds of the game. Seemed to me the apology/press release, issued by the school administration, not the team, was a damage control reaction to the media and other backlash. I would not chalk this example up as one of the "inspiring" examples of GP in sports, no matter how "sorry" school officials claimed to be after the fact.

All that being said, I don't think you can compare what goes on at any sporting event where the score is 100% certain all the time to an event where the winner of the match, due to uncertain penalties and nebulous "realtime" scoring, is in much doubt. Asking a team to "play nice" on the field and sandbag it to "help" struggling teams is not productive, if that is indeed the intent of G14. Asking a team to "play nice" off the field by helping the struggling team learn how to improve their design, build, and programming skills makes all the difference in the world.

"Leveling the playing field" by bulldozing the buildings that serve as a city's best "architecture" down to ground level is not progress. "Filling in the gaps" by having the architects build new architecture on the city's vacant lots is.

And if G14 isn't primarily designed to have an "inspirational" correction to the game, as has been posited but never confirmed, then as a strategic aspect, I don't think it will carry much of a "fear factor" in teams' match planning. Because 4-2 or 4-0 are valid penalizable G14 scores, there's too much "noise" in the certainty of the in-match scores and penalties to justify daintily limiting your offensive output. This will be especially true in the eliminations, where blowouts will be rare and teams will score first, ask questions later.

In the end, regardless of the intent of the rule, which seems to often be the source of any passionate debate, moreso than its effect on the game, I don't believe it will have a big impact on how teams strategize, and this is how I expect to proceed this year.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Hmm, even more interesting, I found a follow-up article with the coach saying he didn't want to apologize for the match, since the girls played "with honor and integrity". I just thought I'd share that with everyone, since I started the thread. I don't know if anyone else has feedback on this, but thanks to everyone who did share your opinions above. The diverse responses were really interesting. It's cool to see that you had different takes on the situation and how it applies to FIRST and GP.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Agree with Adam.

Kinda like if team 25 brutally beat us 80-0, its not like we'd think they did anything wrong in bringing their best if we did too.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Akash-

I hope we never BRUTALLY beat anybody. But I do tell my team to always do their best. Win or lose you can always live with yourself if you do.

In the case of the basketball team- if I were the coach I probably would have realized that the game was a blowout very early and would have directed my players to shoot from outside the 3 pt zone or make x-number of passes before each shot. That would give the other team an honorable chance and save some face for them. If after all that the game is still a blowout I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of.

I would question the folks who placed the OTHER team in the league with the full knowledge that they would never be viable in a competitive environment due to the small size and limited nature of their school. All that would serve to do is demoralize those kids after every loss. I am sure there are non-competitive "Intramural "type options available.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Hehe, by brutally I just meant by a huge scoring gap. :p

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Before I am accused of anything, I should probably make it clear that I come down firmly in the anti-G14 camp. However, the coaches (not the players, who should never be faulted for listening to their coach and playing as hard as they can) of the Covenant School should be ashamed of themselves, for several reasons:

-The game was against not only a tiny private school, but one specialising in students with learning difficulties. Now, of course that is no reason not to compete as much as usual, but they should have shown a basic amount of compassion.

-They were clearly going for the 100 points they got to without any regard for their opponents. Plus, when they got there (with about four minutes left, according to the article) they stopped. If you're going to compete to this ridiculous agree, at least do it for a better reason then a big, round number.

-They were clearly attempting to press their advantage by employing the full-court press, which (for those who don't know basketball) is a high-pressure defensive technique that is rarely used at most levels. They were also taking 3-pointers, in an obvious effort to run up the score. I am not sure about this, and may be wrong, but I think I may have heard somewhere that they had their starting players in as well.

The coach was fired recently (less then an hour ago, apparently!) for changing his stance and refusing to apologize.

http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/basketball/girls/news/story?id=3859935

I would post on what this has to do with FIRST, but it's 2 AM and a) I have class tomorrow and b) I would like to be coherent when I do so :yikes:

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

I will never apologize for winning a match. I will play my hardest and push myself, my drivers, and my alliance partners to continue to do the same. Which would make you more embarrassed, losing a match 80-0 where your opponent played all out and played to the best of their ability or losing a match 80-41 where your opponent scored a majority of the points your alliance scored to prevent getting a G14. I know i would rather lose 80-0, at least in that situation I know my opponent respects me enough that scoring on themselves is a dangerous risk to them.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

A team can never play its best when it is competing against a team that can't play on the same level. Neither team can. The team who scored 100 - 0, scored 100 - 0. Period. They didn't play to their best ability.

For those comparing a basketball game to this year's FRC game, it can't be done. Different rules. How the teams on the alliances play according to the rules and the scoring will determine the teams who play to the best of their ability.

Sometimes running up a score is just that.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

The school apologized but the coach didn't.
One of the main points of debate is the unwritten rule in basketball that when you are winning by a larger margin, you play the 'b' team and back off on the full court press. Neither of those things occured.
Someone should teach the rest of the world GP.
Or take away their ball for the next match ;)

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Exactly. In addition, you don't keep shooting three-pointers.
It is the same across most team-based sports. When you get up by an insurmountable lead, you pull the starters. This has a lot of benefits for your team anyway. 1) The "2nd string/line" gets experience in the game. Who knows when they will be needed down the road. Granted, this is not a pressure situation, but it is game-day experience. 2) You protect your starters from injury.



Differences from FIRST: 1) As stated earlier, FIRST is a 2-minute game while all these sports are 45+ minute games. 2) The scoring in FIRST can happen very fast (especially this year with the super cells). 3) As stated, with possible penalties, it is hard to know where you stand.

As to G-14: I personally am glad that they add the stipulation about penalties being applied after checking for score more than double. I have some concerns about the rule, but in the end, it is what we have and we have to live by them. I will hold judgment on it until I see how applicable it really is during the competition.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Jane, I agree on your first point, teams can only play to their best when they are pushed. Otherwise they are playing at whatever level they feel comfortable. A lot of people would never move forward if they weren't pushed.

While FIRST is different than basketball the concept is the same. Both are team sports where we compete to win. In my opinion the major difference is that in basketball you can choose your team, FIRST doesn't give us that benefit for most of the competition. Does that mean we should take it easy on people? NO. Ive said countless times that teams need to compete as if it were the last match they will ever play. Ive had people go easy on me in various games and competitions. I was offended. I was hurt. Frankly, the fact that the winning team stopped at 100 is more offensive in my opinion than the fact that they dominated the game.

How does this apply to FIRST? I don't care who you are, if you are 1114 or if you are a team who barely made a robot if you do not play your hardest against me I will think less of you.

How do I feel about the apology? I think that is offensive to the team that lost. What the district is saying is, "We are sorry we didn't take it easy on you because you are pathetic and we are so much better than you." I applaud the coach for standing up and treating these kids as actual competitors instead of treating the game like a practice match.

DISCLAIMER: I do not approve of leveling the playing field or G14 in any way shape of form.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Regarding FIRST, I would prefer to see teams and alliances play their smartest. That would include respecting, understanding, and applying the rules.

Implied rules such as going to the b game in basketball so there isn't a blow-out is what creates problems and bad will. To me, this is what this thread is about regarding that basketball game.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

The smartest thing that coach could have done was keep his mouth shut.
When a story like this is getting national attention the last thing you do is contradict your boss and show them up in the press. The results are always predictable.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

The real <fault/crime/sad thing>* is whomever set up the match, IF they knew the relative level of skills of each team.

Kind of like the NY Giants playing a junior High School team - think there'd be any fun for anyone? But, such a margin of victory is no reason to be ashamed. If there is to be a forfeit, it should be before the game has ended.


*Can't think of a good word for that..

.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

According to this letter from the (now fired) coach off of the teams web site [http://www.flightbasketball.com/100-...om-Coach.html] He stopped the "Full court press" after three minutes into the game after they already scored 25 points, and also there were only 4 3-point shots in the entire game, 3 in the first quarter, and 1 in the third.

Take a look at the story from another perspective. I think that what he did was right. You should not forfeit the game if you have a blowout. You should be respectful to the other team and make sure you let them know that they played hard too and tried their best.

Please, take a look at the letter, it really paints a different picture than what the media had been painting.

http://www.flightbasketball.com/100-...rom-Coach.html

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

The FRC competitions are a little different:

During the qualifying matches you should consider that part of your ranking will come from the losing alliances score. If you are clearly winning it will help your alliance teams if you do back off and allow the opponents to accumulate some points. We are playing a multi-game strategy here.

During the final matches you should be playing as hard as possible even if this means that the opponents have no score. The losing score doesn't count toward moving to the next level.

GP is realizing that when each individual game is over we should all be helping each other to achieve the best results we can, even if that means helping the next match opponent get their robot back on the field.

Opinion on the original topic: I don't want my opponent to throw the match. I want to keep getting better until I can score against the tough teams. How will you know where the bar is if it's always getting lowered for you?

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

After the fiasco that the orignal story ended up becoming I prefer this story a whole lot more.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

It's way less controversial, and definitely more meaningful. Thanks for contributing that to the thread (yes, there are lots of good people in the world.) (:

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

A much better display of sportsmanship. They may not call it GP, but they get it.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

FIRST Robotics Competition.

While the principle of GP plays a huge part in FIRST, at the end of the day this is still a competition. I personally find dishonor in not trying your hardest to win the game while following the rules and being a decent person.

I used to play Lacrosse, and once upon a time we played a team that was obviously not as good as we were. We ran the score up into the 30-0 range. It got so bad that myself and our other goalies were scoring goals.

Do I feel bad? Not one bit. Everyone out there was a sportsman, in fact I had a friend on the other team. When I asked him about it he told me "I'd rather have my butt handed to me, then a win I did not earn."

Kinda sums it up for me.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Another High School sports GP story is in the headlines today:

http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=914609

Kind of refreshing to know that in the stereotypical world of sports, there exists some glint of humanity & GP among the highly competitive nature.

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Koko Ed beat you to it.:P

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

Oops!
I didn't expect to see it posted on here yesterday since I just saw the headline today. HA!

Oh wells. It's a story that is worth repeating many times over none-the-less. :)

Re: Apologizing for Blowout Match
 

I agree, this is a topic I wouldnt object so strongly to having duplicate posts. These things need to be showcased.