Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Our Robotics Team 2077 is considering mass producing replica balls this weekend as a fundraiser and we would be willing to sell them for around $20 - $30 a piece plus shipping (Zip 53183). If your team has an interest please let me know how many you would like. We would ship the balls by the beginning of week five depending on demand. First come first serve.
This idea is still in the works, and depending on the amount of interest we may or may not do this.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Most teams I assume have worked out their orbit ball problems, whether the solution was to make their own or they were able to buy them from Walmart or FIRST. I cant imagine that many, if any, teams would want or be able to pay $20-$30 plus S&H for a ball.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

At this point in time, I only know 2077 as the team who tried to charge $20-30 for homemade orbit balls. That's a ridiculous price to ask teams in need who may have not found balls, nor have the time to make their own. I'd reconsider your price and what how it affects the image of your team.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

We apologize if this seems rude, but our team is just trying to come up with fundraising ideas. We were going to make acurate replicas and while we were at it, we would just sell some of our extras. The price has not been set yet (we have no idea what the materials at bulk cost will be). Our experimental balls, have cost us around 10 a piece to make. If anyone has sugestions on cheaper materials let us know. If there is intrest, the price will most likely be around $20.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Most teams won't go for that. Retail price and normal materials price is around $10. You'll want to shoot for $10-$15 apiece max, or teams will probably say, "we're not interested".

To put this in perspective, I got 2 real ones for my HS team and sent them both for under $30. That's under $15 apiece, including shipping.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Lets put it this way, What would people be willing to pay for quality replica orbit balls?

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Can you add a poll to the thread, giving some reasonable options? That would give you some idea.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

This is an awesome thread !.

I think this brings a good lesson in Economics, as I comment on this thread bear in mind that I do not have a degree in economics.

THE SITUATION
There is a demand and supply for Orbits balls. The demand exceeds the supply as distributed by normal distribution, and original manufacturer does not sell given product. Material cost is estimated to be $9 done in the U.S in low volume manufacturing. The retail price of such ball is around $10. Labor is $0 if done by volunteers as a way for fund-raising.

QUESTIONS
What price should someone manufacturing such a ball set to ?
How can we lower the cost of materials ?
Can we accuratlly estimate the labor involved to manufacture such a ball ?
Can the ball be customized so it adds value to sell higher than retail price ?


I personally would pay $20 plus shipping in handling if the ball comes with the team picture and it is autographed by all the team members including the coach and mentors. If this is a possibility, send me a private e-mail on Chief Delphi with the address.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

A fair price is one that a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller. Asking if other teams are willing to pay $xx is a good method for gauging demand. As I understand it, you're going to build some anyway, and want to know if other teams might have an interest.

The price reflects the fact that it is a fundraiser. I can get a candy bar for under $2 elsewhere, but I buy that one anyway....

We will make do with the ones we have, but I wish you success. Supply and demand will ultimately rule.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I am doing a poll on a fair price for replica orbit balls. People seem to agree that if the balls cost $10 to make, $15 would be a reasonable price. My team may be interested in around 10.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I would say $15 max, especially if you're charging for shipping on top of that. As other people have said, the materials cost around $10 per ball, and if you're charging double or triple that, it might be worth it to people to just do it themselves.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Exactly, 100-200% profit margins are just brutally unfair in my opinion.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

It is always good for the budding entrepreneur to learn. He or she can develop an idea and what he/she thinks is a competitive market price. By bouncing the idea around a bit and seeing the reaction via comments and a poll, it offers an opportunity for the entrepreneur to test the market and see what results.

It is also good to see what other teams are doing as well. I believe some teams are making them to distribute to other teams. Some people have purchased all the orbit balls from surrounding Wal-Marts and are distributing them privately. This game piece has certainly provided a different view into the area of the entrepreneurial spirit, that's for sure.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

In my estimation there is no unfair price. This is a simple supply and demand issue. The supply is virtually non-existent so the price is whatever the consumer is willing to pay. I don't want to make this a political discussion but this is the foundation of free market economics.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

As far as a 100% to 200% profit margin I would agree EXCEPT
One has to include the labor BEFORE one figures profit margin.

I think everyone on here who is complaining about price should consider that this team is using team resources and time to do this. If you purchase a ball from them you are saving that time...

Now if a team had balls purchased from WalMart that were just extras and they were asking $20 for them ... then we would have a 100% mark up. Which is quite normal by the way...

If we think about this from a resource allocation model... we are paying for a resource from this team....

The other approach is simply this...
This team is really selling these at cost if they have a man-hour labor and a materials cost of $10 per ball... with the going rate of $10 per hour for labor that adds up to $20 a ball....cost...

This team is volunteering to use its own precious time resource to do this and should be compensated for that...

As I mentioned in a post on the poll thread...
The balls our team purchased from LogoLoc ended up costing $14.00 per ball after the shipping and handling costs from logoloc (FIRST).

Those balls were gone in one day..... at that price

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Just as a point of reference, some Canadian teams paid $100 USD, which is almost equal to $125 CAD for 3 orbit balls. Of course this cost includes shipping, handling, duty and customs brokerage. Regardless it speaks to what teams are willing to pay for an essential item with a very limited supply.

I for one think the $20-30 price point is pretty fair, depending on the quality of the balls. (I've seen some homemade balls which behave very, very differently than the real orbit balls.)

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Two considerations:

--Mass production. Do you really have a zillion people who can produce hundreds of these balls within one or two weeks? As I recall, the white paper about making them estimated up to 2 hours per ball, unless you can get an efficient assembly process going.

--Shipping. They must be shipped in a container that will protect them from being crushed. If you use foam peanuts for cushioning, the recipient will have to shake foam peanuts out of each ball. However, I don't think they'll need protection from bouncing as much as protection from crushing. Keep in mind when calculating shipping costs that shippers (both USPS and UPS) charge for the size of the box as well as for weight.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Here is my opinion: America has a free market and unregulated trade. If you don't want to pay that much then don't. No one is forcing you to pay it. I don't think it is bad for the team rep if they want to sell orbit balls at a high price. If they were forcing you to buy them... that would be a different story. Just because you think something is expensive, doesn't mean that the people selling them are being stingy or w/e. You could easily make your own orbit balls. They are offering, so technically, they are being nice.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

The flip side of this is that the team who purchases the supplies and puts in the hours making the balls could turn what was meant to be a productive fundraiser into a financial fiasco.

In the end, the venture has to be looked at carefully and decisions made wisely and realistically.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

We figured that our balls cost $40 to make, including material and labor at minimum wage. The fact that the balls cost $10 when mass produced in china should be irrelevant, considering that the balls aren't available any more. I think that $20-$30 is more then fair.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Good fundraising idea, and good luck with it.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I guess you've never worked in retail sales?

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Hello All,

I think there are a couple assumptions here for those that are saying that the price above retail price is sustainable for a replicate ball :

1) They are not available and this is a commodity item.
2) There is only one team willing to produce and sell those balls.
3) They can be delivered to the team within a short lead time.
4) Team will be using the balls for testing purpose on W5 and W6.


I still think this is a great idea for fund raising to sell to those that like to have a "unique" item from one of the teams given the team "add value" to the ball, but I think for the team to sell as an item for teams to use for testing purpose it is a bit challenging given you would need to have a firm order and be able to deliver it in a couple weeks for the teams to use.

After the competition I assume there will be a oversupply of those balls.......

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I have (one of the best learning experiences of my life; I REALLY want to finish college now), I just assumed that a team wanting to sell balls to other teams would be doing it moreso to help other teams than make money for themselves. Making a few dollars is fine by me, making several times the cost is not. I was also under the impression that in small quantities the balls were $10 to make each, and only got cheaper after that. If the costs are really as high as people claim, my complaint isn't justified.

I also don't really factor labor into this, as every team I've ever been on has always had at least a few kids that always find a way to avoid working; I imagine these kids would be forced to make balls.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

However in that situation the costs are purely money. If a person is overcharging other teams (not that I am saying this is the case) Then that team will either see a loss immediately in the form of low ball sales, or long term when they become removed form the community (again not saying it is the situation here, in fact it is not) If you get deep enough into Economics, then you find there is no right or wrong, there is only fact. So just as anyone can set their price for the balls, anyone can say that price is unfair and both of them are factual, neither right nor wrong.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

228 made about 24 GUS balls (our replication orbit balls).

It took several students and mentors an entire weekend to do so. Our final material costs were in the $8-$9 range per ball.

It may sound like a good idea at first to make lots of them to sell, but by the time about 18 of them were made we were starting to go crazy. It's very repetitious.

So before you go on any further, I'd make like a half dozen of them first just for your team. Then ask yourself if you really want to make more of them to sell, because I can guarantee you most people's patience for making these balls will falter after about 20 or 30 of them.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Hey artdutra04,

Is your team thinking about selling those balls after the competition is over ?

Cheers,
Marcos.
:)

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

$20/ball seems like a fair price to me.

Like everyone has said, it depends on material cost, etc...

Karthik put how rough other teams have it in perspective. To pay 20-25 bucks/ball is not that bad.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I have to agree with bob 100% on this.


I know there are teams that are financially stable, who would be willing to help out a team and get a product also. Remember guys this IS a fundraiser.

Take a chill pill yall:D

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Not to shoot down your idea, but for most teams they can buy the real game pieces at Walmart for 10 bucks instead of 30.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Not true.

There is no walmart within a reasonable driving distance (2-3 hours) of our team that we could buy orbit balls from. New england more or less has been cleaned out of them.

I'm sure this is true in other parts of the country as well, where teams are very densely packed.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Exactly why I said most teams, I've already had people say things like this to me, about how there's no walmart by them or that their already cleaned out, when I try to give some good information to fellow FIRSTers. Next time you need to realize that this is what happens with game pieces commercially available, and you need to get them right after kickoff, we had purchased about 10 by the day after kick off.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I don't recall a situation like the shortage of orbit balls as a game piece before in FRC. There may be and hopefully, someone will enlighten us and explain how they handled the shortage then. The game piece/game impacts teams globally. Wal-Marts may be hard to come by in different regions and areas of the world. One can think locally when it comes to FRC but it is wise to think globally and how the teams and venues are impacted.

An example: I had a conversation with Greg Needel when he was visiting Austin this fall. He shared a little bit of the challenges that teams in Israel face. Things that teams in the US wouldn't even give a 2nd thought to. There is not the same access across the board and teams and event planners find ways to compensate by being innovative and creative, making it work.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

FIRST challenges change every year and in response to this FIRSTers around the globe are always trying to anticipate what new challenges await us at the next kickoff, so a shortage of a commercial item not usually in popularity is likely to happen when all the sudden people are ripping them off the shelfs. Also I tried to help some people out so why do I need to be told I didn't help everyone.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Jamie,
You think we didn't try to run and get them as soon as we saw what they were and where we could by them?? Believe me we tried...a lot. It wasn't like there were some of these balls in every store, and the teams who got there first got them. Some store simply didn't have any.....none of the stores near us did. The ones we did get, we had to find through walmarts inventory system.

Why most teams were able to grab a few from their local wal-mart, there were a signfigant amount of teams that were unable to get any, besides the 3 that FIRST offered up and the 1 that came in the kit.



I'm just trying to put things in perspective for you...not every team had the same scenario as yours.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Ok it's just I don't see why people keep telling me that this information isn't good when I'm just trying to help out another team.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Of the balls we have left (we've already dispersed some out to other teams), they probably wouldn't be available for about 9-12 months from now (we are a year-round team), and the students on the team have already been given first priority to buy them after this season.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Hey Jamie! Who is using the 10 balls you purchased?

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I guess we are, I didn't really know we were even getting any but the next day most of the mentors showed up with one thinking they were the only one.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

2006 was better only because the company made more immediately. Can't do that this time around.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

After the kickoff, team members went to Walmarts around LA and couldn't find any. We phoned relatives in other cities and all they could find is broken ones. At the time we didn't know they might be repairable, so we didn't get them. We have the one from the kit and the three from FIRST for testing our robot. We use some team-made ones for practice throwing.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Because the first thing you said in the thread was "you know you can get them at wal-mart, right?", and people were trying to tell you that that was not the case for a large number of teams, including every single foreign team (Orbit Balls were not sold outside of the USA, ever).

I think $20 is a fair price, though really any price is fair, some just might be poorer selections than others. If you priced them at $1000 apiece thats your decision, but you probably wouldn't sell many. Its all about finding the right price point to sell the maximum number.

If they don't offer the balls to other teams at all, then the price is essentially infinity, and that would be even worse. Given the labour required to make them, offering to sell them at all when that labour could be put towards actually building a bot is very generous of them.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

Haha we have 9 real ones.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

After taking in all of your comments, our team has learned a lot about economics, but have decide that we will not be selling Orbit Balls, although we will make as many as possible this weekend and may sell a few to needy teams.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

A couple of parents from Team 980 with LOTS of manufacturing experience have come up with an alternative solution to the game piece shortage. They've spend a couple of weeks looking for the lowest cost approach to getting more balls to the teams. They've contacted Blip and determined that the delivery time and minimum order quantity was not going to work.

The plan is to sell Lunacy game ball kits to teams, perhaps as soon as this weekend. The kits include pre-sown fabric tubes (essentially identical as that used in the Orbit balls with no batting as found in the GUS ball), pre-cut lexan strips (far more durable than the plastic in the Orbit ball), high-strength adhesive patches to bond the strips together and instructions for assembly. To simplify and reduce cost of shipping and handling, only kits of 20 - 25 balls will be shipped via Priority Mail box to teams. The cost per ball will be on the order of $10 to $11 each (still working this number, however, there won't be much margin in this cost). Lunacy game ball sales will be done through a special web-site using Paypal.

We will post a new thread on CD in the next day or so announcing when the web-site is going up and sales will commence. Based on initial response, the quantity of kits manufactured can be increased pretty quickly.

What do you think about this approach?

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I think that after making dozens of fabric tubes, your team will have a new explanation for why this year's game is called Lunacy. :)

I also think it will help your customers very much if the lexan strips are thoroughly deburred (the smoother, the better), and at least one end of each strip is very well rounded.

I'm wondering if your kit size is too big--10-ball increments might be more manageable, both for your team and for the recipient teams. 20 balls=120 tubes and strips.

I hope your manufacturing experts have experience with cutting massive quantities of stretchy synthetic fabric. I consider cutting the fabric to be particularly tedious.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

We're certainly in danger of becoming a Lunatics! It just cannot be stopped!

So, the plan is to ship kits of 10. We almost meet the goal of $2 shipping & handling per ball using Priority Mail. The shipping & handling cost for 3 Orbit balls from Logoloc was more than triple that.

The Team 980 parents leading this project considered the potential for high-demand for kits in a short period, so they chose local suppliers and manufacturers carefully. Reducing cost while using high-quality materials was a major consideration too.

The Lunacy game ball web-site will provide more details on the kit contents and what effort is required to assemble the balls. We plan to start taking orders this weekend. We'll post the link in CD soon...

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

We thought the same thing until we bought a self-healing cutting board and one of those circular pizza-cutter-type scissors.

After that it took seconds to cut each one out.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

The pizza-cutter-type scissor is a rotary cutter. A sharp blade can cut through a few of layers of fabric at a time.

If you click on the cutting mat button, you will see the type of cutting board that Art is talking about. Also, the quilting rulers can be very helpful with projects like this. I have several mats, several rulers, and several rotary cutters - different sizes for different needs.

There is also a way to make one big bias tube that can then be cut into one long bias strip that can then be cut into the individual strips to make your tubing for the balls. If you are interested in that, I can dig up the directions. The preparation takes time on the front end but would be more efficient and time saving overall, I think.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

We have been cutting the fabric into long strips, sewing them and then cutting them into lengths. They do not need to be bias strips, especially since the spandex we are using is stretchy in all ways! We think it is more efficient, but cutting and sewing is still the most labor intensive and tedious part of making the balls. Even with a rotary cutter and mat.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I like it.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

In theory, that's a better way.

But I was using my old cutting mat, which was an inch shorter than the length of the fabric strips, and trying to manage 10 yards of bright yellow 58-inch wide Spandex on a 34-inch wide card table. My little old Olfa cutter kept skipping, even after I bought new blades. So I had to touch up each cut with scissors. I considered buying a really large mat, but I didn't want to spend that much money on what I thought would be a two-day job.

In the other cutting area at our shop, people were marking the fabric with whatever was handy, and struggling to cut it with really bad scissors. The only pencil sharpener in the shop was the power sander... You get the picture.

We were "only" making some 80 balls, with another team. (We did the yellow and navy Spandex, they did the Lexan.) I had many thoughts about what the factory in China might have used to make the job more efficient.

David, I wish you well in your ball-making endeavor.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

I just HAVE to meet you some day, Karen.

Re: Orbit Balls - For Sale
 

You folks might want to check this out

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...192#post813192

Parents of a Team 980 student member have produced a kit for assembling ten, high-quality, durable Lunacy Game balls at ~$125 (shipping included) for on-line sale to FIRST teams:

Lunacy Game Balls - The Complete Kit

The professionally manufactured kit includes 60 pre-cut lexan strips, 60 sown spandex fabric tubes (30 ea. orange and purple), super-strength adhesive patches and tape for fastening the plastic strips, and simple instructions for assembling the balls.

It's way easier to get them here than Wal-Mart b/c they've been discontinued. Hope this helps!