Team Argument!
 

Hey everyone. Well, as we all know it is well into the build season with the deadline fast approaching and since I am on a rookie team we hardly have the grasp of the gravity of our situation. What makes it much worse is a big argument we have been having and can't put behind us.

Here's the issue, when we were starting brainstorming ideas for this year's robot we had a couple ideas that people felt passionately. They were "Wheel", "Auger" and "Dual Conveyor". As a team we decided to pick "Wheel". The problem is, our lead mentor was the one who created the auger idea. Now, when we decided against it her figured that we just didn't understand it. So he decides to take his son and ONE other student and develop it as a "backup".

We thought that was alright as long as this was outside of the time we worked as a team and that it would ONLY be used if our first choice didn't work. Well, he calls a meeting today declaring that once we are done with the build season we are going to have a performance test the two and pick the one that works best, which is totally hypocritical to what he said in the beginning of the meeting which is that FIRST isn't about winning or losing.

I raised my hand and voiced my opinion that if we decide to pick the Auger that everyone who didn't work on the team would feel totally alienated because they had no help in making it. I said that I would rather lose miserbly with the bot I made, then win it all with a bot I had no help on.

I didn't make this just to air out dirty laundry and for you guys to back me up. I want to know how you guys handle back up ideas, do you just pick an idea and go with it or do you make two robots and pick the best one. Another big issue with this is that they have split our total funds between these two robots. What do you guys think?

Re: Team Argument!
 

Every team I've been apart of has been all or nothing. No middle. You pick a design, then you build it. Sure, you may draft a couple of ideas, you may prototype an idea or two, but you only build one. Otherwise, your wasting both time and money. Some teams may have the luxury of building two ideas, but I've never been on one that could. Good luck on sorting it out.

Re: Team Argument!
 

That's my feeling. He has it in his head that we have enough time to do both and we barely have enough time to do one. He's telling me to start working on "Auger Code" and I said "No, I'm not sabotaging our team"

Re: Team Argument!
 

Personally I feel that this problems should have been dealt with almost four weeks ago. When your team brainstorms ideas, it's great for everyone to defend their ideas while they develop them, however, when you start to make decisions on what will actually happen on your robot, you need to get everyone to realize that it no longer is their own idea, but the teams idea and it may be turned down. For my team, we brainstorm in subgroups, then we get together and present the individual ideas to the entire team, then we make everyone do a physical motion to signify that they no longer own that idea, but more so it's a team idea from that point forward. If, however, there is an idea that we want to keep just in case, we put it on the Put-A-Side list. The Put-A-Side list is a list that stays on the main white board where all dormant ideas stay. While on the list, it doesn't mean we will do the idea, or that we won't do it, it just means that we are focusing on other ideas before looking into the ideas on the list. Let us know how this situation turns out, sorry you had to deal with this on your first year.

Re: Team Argument!
 

Oh, I love mentors for what they do, but they can certainly be overbearing. This late in build season, I would suggest doing whichever design will be finished the soonest. It is a tough decision, between what you made yourself and what may be better for the team. Do whatever you think is right, try to get a many students supporting it as possible.

Re: Team Argument!
 

We pick one idea to stick with for good about two weeks into the build season, although I do admit this year for us is a bit of an exception, but it was acceptable because the two designs are quite similar and come from the same idea that was agreed on.

I don't know about other teams, but our team votes as a team for what we want, our mentors can voice their opinions, but our students are the ones that decide, then we focus all of our resources on the idea that is chosen. This is mostly because our team is student-run for the most part. If you want the students to play a major role in building the robot, then the students should be the ones deciding, and in my opinion, the mentor should respect the decision made by students.

Re: Team Argument!
 

I can tell you that your situation is by no means uncommon. I've been around since 2005 and almost every year our team has had some sort of conflict over design but it almost always is before we make our decision.

It's important to make sure that once you settle on a design as a TEAM you stick with it. I personally do not support your team leader working on a separate design as a back up. His time could be better spent making spares for the team approved design. If you were in the prototype phase then sure, if he wants to prototype a different design then fine, but once it's time to work on the final design, you can't have people second guessing that.

I feel the same way that you do when it comes to "you'd rather lose with a bot you made then win with someone else's." In 2006, we didn't build an elite robot, but it was a solid team effort and I'm proud of it.

Don't forget that your team leader is a rookie too. It's going to take some time for him to learn how to be most affective in that capacity. He will learn a lot from the past Woodie Flowers Award winners at FLR if he takes the time to talk to them.

The best thing you can do is get a sense of how the majority of the team feels and go in that direction. I know it may create some tension between the groups but in the end you are all on the same team and it's too late in the season to still be battling over designs. You guys need to get united together cause if your team leader is really concerned about winning, then a united team behind a common effort is the only way that's going to happen.

I can't wait to play Lunacy with you guys at FLR and I know that you and your team can overcome this and have a successful season. Good luck and see ya at FLR!

-Justin

Re: Team Argument!
 

For the FTC, we had about 5 ideas swirling around, and mine was picked. Not by the team, mind you, but the logistics coach. On his own. In one day. Once I saw the new kit of parts, I didn't like my idea. We still went with it. With only two weeks left, we (myself and two or three others) realized that it wasn't working. We made this decision at lunch, and had a working phase 1 prototype by 4 in the afternoon. While the robot didn't do too hot in competition, Jake is still the robot I'm the most proud of.

I AM NOT SAYING to wait till the last minute and change everything, but I am saying stick to your design, the coaches aren't always right, so build it and prove them wrong.

Re: Team Argument!
 

up until the past few years it was here's our idea and thats what we're going for, there was no room for changing.

Now we have kinda gone to a more modular design where things can be switched at will, the point of that isnt for switching main design ideas though but rahter for if something fails DURING cmopetition. Personally I think its a team by team decision though, if you feel strongly with your view then portray that and why to your team and when it comes time to vote if you make your point strong enough hopefully the team will agree with you.

Re: Team Argument!
 

Ha! Thanks, were probably gonna get crushed by I am very excited!

The biggest thing here is the fact that 4 people are working on the auger. Two students and two mentors..that's it. The other 15ish people are working on the wheel. There is a clear cut majority, and most everyone supports me. Our student team leader is vehemently against this idea as well.

Another point he made was that you have to compare this to industry. He said that when are working you have to pick what is best and not just which one you like. I told him that, that analogy is not valid because we don't get fired for not winning at FIRST and as he said it's not about winning, about making a group effort to get the job done and to work together to create a robot that we all agreed on.

Re: Team Argument!
 

I agree with what has been said, I prefer to choose one design and make that design work, improving it along the way. Unfortunately your team seems to be beyond that point.

I suggest you bring this point up as a team group and let everyone give their opinion on the subject. At some point you will need to choose one design, and one robot. I think the sooner, the better...

Everyone likes to fall in love with their designs sometimes, but in the end this is a team effort and the team needs to collectively make a decision. If the team members decide to choose based on effectiveness or based on whether they had a hand in making the machine, it is their personal vote. Eventually a decision needs to be made, you can't compete with 2 robots. I personally would prefer a group decision over a single person's decision (even if they're a mentor) and I would prefer a decision today rather than ship day. It's not one person's robot, so as a team you need to decide on a single machine to compete with.

There are thousands of potential designs that work will work. If you spread you resources out and build 2 designs with half as much effort as you would have if your resources were combined, you'll always have 2 mediocre robots. Hopefully you guys will come together and have everyone work as a team ASAP.

Send a PM if you need any help.

Re: Team Argument!
 

The exact same thing happened my Freshman year on 100 (2005).

I was a rookie then. But our team was in its 10th year!

A mentor built one design and we, the students, built a different one. The situation you describe sounds pretty mellow compared to us. I'm talking all out war between students and adults. It was ridiculous. People even cried :( It nearly ended the team.

We shipped the mentor built robot. It failed. It could barely move :(

What little respect we had left for that mentor vanished and we unanimously booted him off the team the next year.

But strangely enough, we all learned more that year then any other year. Looking back, I'm always amazed how dedicated we became when we, the students, were working against a common enemy.

So did we really fail? I don't know.

Well, I decided to become an engineer. I got inspired. I learned how NOT to design a robot. I learned about what happens when you aren't organized and people don't cooperate. In short, the FIRST message prevailed.

Ironically, I learned a tremendous amount from that mentor, despite the fact that he drove our team into the ground.

My advice to you?

Act like engineers and pick whichever design works best. Solve the problem. No matter what happens you'll still have learned something :)

Re: Team Argument!
 

1 design to rule them all. Everyone on the team, students and mentors alike, need to understand the compromise that comes with anything that takes place on a team.

In 05 was the only year we did the 2 track thing. One was was the kids and mentors agreed with, the other was a crazy awesome lift of polycarb a mentor and a few kids made. The polycarb one was friggin awesome....but it was wayyyy overweight and overbudget. Designs might be better, but there's always other factors.

Pick one design and stick to it. Majority rules, but sometimes a compromise can be made without compromising functionality.

Re: Team Argument!
 

Ok, let's go with the business analogy:

Ok, there is a need for a new part. Team gets together and discusses ideas. They narrow it down to two. They decide to go with one idea for whatever reason. One of the employees who didn't get their idea picked, decides to go ahead with his design. He steals a couple of people from the group to move it forward. He takes money from the mainstream plan to fund his design. The two designs are finished about the same time and are put to the test. There is a possibility of two outcomes:

1. The individuals idea is indeed better. The team goes with this idea. However, when the boss goes to review the design, he notices what the individual has done. The employee has undermined the team by taking funds and distracting co-workers. That employee is on the fast track to getting fired.

2. The individuals idea is actually worse. The team goes with the mainstream idea. The boss sees what the individual has done. Wasted time and money on something that is an inferior product. This gets him fired.

Notice a link between the two outcomes? In both, regardless of which design they go with, the person who goes against the team's best interest is usually fired. Regardless of whether or not they was right. Something to consider for next year. After the stunt that mentor pulled, I'd see about getting him removed from the team. Take these scenarios to the student team leader. See what he has to say.

Re: Team Argument!
 

Yea, you're totally right. I mean, during the third week we told both students to stop working on the auger because we are trying to focus on our main idea. They said ok, but then when this meeting was called today he used the fact that "forced people" to work on the main idea as a reason to support his claim that we should have two robots. I am just really worried that we get neither finished and we can't compete this year. If that happens I will be so angry.