Chief Delphi - What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

- General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - What's going in your Withholding Allowance? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74721)

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 822614)

If timing belts are slipping, they need a lot more tension; making them wider only increases the force you can transfer through them.

The belt that is on there cannot get any tighter, it was tensioned into place using a clamp and does not appear to flex at all if you push on it. It is not one of the kit belts it is one with a much shallower tooth profile that we got for free from a mentor's work. We are looking at replacing it with some of the kit 5mm belts after we find some local teams not using the parts we need and we calculate what belt length we need to purchase.

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Our robot was built to take advantage of the withholding allowance from the beginning. The drive modules detach, as a unit, from each side of the frame, and the control module is completely detachable, too.

Now we just need to build a dummy chassis to mount the modules on to and we've got five weeks of traction control and driving practice before Seattle.

(And, yeah... we could sure use it!)

Jason

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

We're keeping our control system, part of the turret, and we are bringing in our redesigned rollers.

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

ARGGGG! You always beat me to posting

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikesrock (Post 822632)

The belt that is on there is tight as a drum. It was tensioned into place by moving one of the parts with a clamp and does not appear to flex at all when pushed on. It is not one of the 5mm kit belts, it has a much shallower profile. We are looking at belts with a deeper profile, not wider belts.

We have a nearly identical 2nd conveyor running perfectly using some fo the 5mm kit belts.

If it's a wrong/shallow profile belt, fair enough. If you're looking to buy more 5mm pitch belts or timing belt sprockets, SDP/SI has a wide selection, including a ton of really light polycarbonate timing belt pulleys with aluminum hubs.

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pausert (Post 822460)

-A piece of body paneling that isn't finished.
-The Camera (we plan to obtain another cRIO with which to tweak programming)
-Some odds and ends that may or may not ever touch the 'bot.

I'm curious as to how you plan to "obtain" another cRIO.. We are in a similar situation regarding camera.. Our algorithm to detect targets takes about 2 seconds to run, blocking :yikes: We would love to keep the cRIO at home for these crucial few weeks, but decided against it because of the dangers of plugging everything in wrong.
Plus, "obtain" sounds slightly illegal.. I like it..

--Jordan

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 822614)

If timing belts are slipping, they need a lot more tension; making them wider only increases the force you can transfer through them.

Even properly tensioned belts can slip if they are not being used in the correct situation.

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Maybe its just tiredness setting in... but I was rereading all of the Withholding allowance rules, and being that it is 40lbs of FABRICATED items, this means things like anything in the electronics system (other than fabricated wires), ie speed controllers, camera (w/out mount), cRio, wireless bridge, etc dont count... Am I reading that right? I couldnt find anything in the Q&A or rules to contradict that. (Although I think my electrical team would think it insane to unplug any of the board other than the basic controls to keep!).

We are only keeping the control system basics, likely the camera, our lexan panels to add stickers, and we are going to do some upgrades to our conveyor system.

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JVN (Post 822836)

Kim,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kims Robot
Maybe its just tiredness setting in... but I was rereading all of the Withholding allowance rules, and being that it is 40lbs of FABRICATED items, this means things like anything in the electronics system (other than fabricated wires), ie speed controllers, camera (w/out mount), cRio, wireless bridge, etc dont count... Am I reading that right? I couldnt find anything in the Q&A or rules to contradict that. (Although I think my electrical team would think it insane to unplug any of the board other than the basic controls to keep!).

You've got it right. 40 lbs IN ADDITION to your control system.

John

Be VERY careful about how you are interpreting "control system" and how it applies to this case. "Control system" does not equal "cRIO" does not equal "control electronics board" does not equal "operator console" does not equal "driver station." If there is any question about whether your "control system" is a FABRICATED ITEM (and therefore must be included within the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE weight limit) or an unmodified COTS item (and therefore permitted into the competition by Rule <R35>), - PLEASE - ask for an official determination via the official FIRST Q&A system. Do not rely on an unofficial opinion (including this one) for this topic. This is not an area where you want to have problems. Don't let bad information be the cause of a lot of heartburn at the competitions.

-dave

.

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

We're witholding bumpers, one piece of material from our hopper, & some side panels just so we can get our sponsors & team number on them before the competitions.
All these things together are way under 40 lbs, so we're good to go. :D

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 822977)

Some relevant Q&As are:

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11913

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11854

Of course, since the crates are pretty much sealed by now, this might come a little bit late, but it should be pretty easy to have items such as the Jaguars (so long as they still contain their magic smoke) and cRio count as COTS. Gears and motors, perhaps, a little less so.

Jason

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 822977)

Don't let bad information be the cause of a lot of heartburn at the competitions.

We're still weeks away from competition and I've already got heartburn.

First, consider this Q&A response. For the sake of avoiding word-mincing, note that this question is clearly about "strip[ping] the robot of many expensive but easily installed COTS items before shipment" and "bring[ing] all those COTS items under R35". The answer indicates that wheels removed from a robot are considered COTS, a disassembled cRIO is considered COTS, and a Toughbox assembled per the directions is considered to be COTS.

Now consider this more recent Q&A response. I certainly wouldn't consider any part that has been previously installed on a robot to be "brand new", particularly not something that is obviously in a different form factor than typically presented by the vendor (in the case of the Toughbox example).

I'd like to call myself "reasonably astute", as required by the second link, but I can't reconcile these responses for the life of me. Help?

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Jason,
Thanks for those Q&A, I had been dilligently hunting the Q&A until the last week, and in looking through the Q&A I figured it would be in Section 8 Fabrication Schedule (since thats what seems to deal with the fabrication period after ship). But it still seems fuzzy:

Quote:

Q3: The CRio, each 9201 & 9403 module, each analog bumper, each DB37 cable, each Jaguar, each Spike, etc from the KOP is a COTS (or exact KOPS replacement item for itself), so R35 applies to them in unassembled form, but not in assembled form, right?
A: Yes.

Quote:

Here is a simple litmus test: if you were purchasing the item with your own money, and it was presented by the vendor as "brand new," would you accept it and pay for it as a "new" item or identify it as a "used" item (and ask for a discount)?

So if we disassemble them, but the vendor wouldnt take them back as "new", the control modules do count towards the 40lbs... It still seems fuzzy, and doesnt fit with the FABRICATED definition that I pulled out... here are the rules that I originally based my thought on:

Quote:

WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are permitted to be
withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements (specified in Section 4.10 and Rule <R25>) and
retained by the team following the shipping deadlines. These items may then be hand-carried to a
competition event by the team. The OPERATOR CONSOLE is automatically included in the
WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Beyond that, the incoming material maximums specified in Rule
<R36> limits the amount of FABRICATED ITEMS included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.
FABRICATED ITEM – Any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast,
constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted,
produced, surface coated, or conjured into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.
• Example 1:A piece of extruded aluminum has been ordered by the team, and arrives in a 20-
foot length. To make it fit in their storage room, the team cuts it into two ten-foot lengths. These
would not be considered FABRICATED ITEMS, as they have not been cut to the final length in
which they will be used on the ROBOT.
• Example 2: A team designs an arm mechanism that uses gears with a 1/2-inch face width.
They order a 12-inch length of gear stock and cut it into precise 1/2 inch slices. They do not
bore out the mounting bores in the center of the gears. The slices are now considered
FABRICATED ITEMS, as they have been cut to final size, even though all the machining
operations (the center bore) may not yet be completed.

<R26> During the period between the shipment of the ROBOT and the competitions: During this period, all teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, and develop software for their ROBOT at their home facility.

A. Teams may manufacture all the SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS theywant.
B. There is no limit to the amount of time that may be put into this effort, other than via the realities of the calendar.
C. Teams may continue development of any items retained under the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, continue to work on them during this period, and then bring them to the competition events.
D. The total weight of the FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE
PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) worked upon during this period and
brought to the competition event(s) must not exceed the limits specified in Rule <R36>.
The primary intent of this rule is to allow teams to withhold the ROBOT control system, the
OPERATOR CONSOLE, and selected relevant subsystems, and access them after the
shipping deadline. This will allow teams to have the maximum time possible prior to each
competition event to develop and complete the software for their ROBOT while maximizing
the potential to understand and use the capabilities provided by the new control system.

<R36> Teams may bring a maximum of 40 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE
PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING
ALLOWANCE items) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their
ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT
during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with
the ROBOT.
• Exception: the OPERATOR CONSOLE is not included in the incoming parts weight restriction.

OPERATOR CONSOLE – the Driver Station unit provided in the FIRST Kit Of Parts, and any
associated equipment, control interfaces, display systems, structure, decorations, etc. used by the
PILOTS to operate the ROBOT.

I guess I see from Bills blog that they were intending the control system to be part of the weight, but I was going by this part of the definition:

Quote:

COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast,
constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted,
produced, surface coated, or conjured into the final form

To me, the cRio hasnt been altered, built, cast, constructed, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated or conjured into its final form by our team... so it seems to be a COTS item... Plus if a team buys a second controller, leaves it in its box, and brings that to competition, its considered a COTS item, isnt it??

I guess I thought this 40lbs was simple until I really read/reread it and saw those Q&A posts... I guess at any rate, our cRio weighs 3.12lbs, and the lexan I held back weighs about 2.5lbs, so we have 36.38lbs to go if all signs are pointing at the cRio being included.

And Joey, I totally agree... the wheels are definitely not good enough for a vendor to resell after a team has used them, and if the disassembled wheels, bearings, etc are COTS, then why wouldnt the cRio be?

I posted questions about the cRio in the Q&A, hopefully we get a speedy response... :)

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

The GDC has clarified a bit...I think. While I think this individual response is fairly clear, it definitely contradicts some of the other Q&A posts on this topic.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12033

So, I looks like any KOP or COTS item in "out of the box" condition are the only things not counted. This "out of the box" condition is new to me, as Fabricated to me is different than wear and specifying "out of the box" to me excludes both fabrication and wear.

The Good: From this post I would include the cRio as not included as long as you bring it in it’s out of the box form. (Nothing else attached)

The Bad: Nothing is all that bad. We get to bring in 40lbs of stuff made at any time.

The Ugly: No matter when you wired them, any motor with leads/connectors that you bring to the event is counted toward your 40lbs. I know that some teams would normally bring a lot of spare motors. They must understand that this now counts toward their 40lbs.

Re: What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric O (Post 823925)

The Ugly: No matter when you wired them, any motor with leads/connectors that you bring to the event is counted toward your 40lbs. I know that some teams would normally bring a lot of spare motors. They must understand that this now counts toward their 40lbs.

The way I see the response is that you would be allowed to bring in a bunch of motors as long as they do not have connectors or anything attached to them....am i reading this incorrectly?