Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

There are a few new questions that have been posted in the Q+A regarding batteries. Go to the forums for the specific questions, but the answers are below. That this means is that if you are going to carry in batteries -

1. if they are assembled (connectors added) - then they count as part of your withholding allowance

2. if they are not assembled, they are COTS items and do not count against your withholding allowance.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I should go back to school for a law degree so that I can have a shot at being on the GDC.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

just wow....there are rules and then there is stuff like this. Its not like you could possibly gain some advantage coming in with their batteries wired up. It just seems like the GDC is nit-picking what counts as a "Fabricated Item", they should have just set a smaller weight allowance if that is what they really wanted to accomplish.....

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

So that means competitive teams who bring a bunch (8-10) of extra batteries must remove all the leads and reattach them at the competition? Only the competitive teams with the cash to send the extra batteries via a crate are not hindered by this ruling.

Sounds like an exception could have been made just for batteries and the leads attached to them...

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

As I posted over in the Withholding Allowance thread, I think this is ridiculous.

What I find the most bizarre is that if a battery with leads is a fabricated item then every team that carried more than 1 assembled battery into an event last year or in '07 was illegal.

The definitions of Fabricated Item, Replacement Parts, Spare Parts, and Upgrade Parts are all word-for-word identical between the 3 manuals. Therefore if an assembled spare battery counts against this year's Withholding Allowance it should have count against the 25 lb limit specified in the previous two years.

Also, any teams that shipped these batteries in 2008 or 2009, but left the leads from previous years was/is in violation of rule <R27>.

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Vikesrock is right. Even if batteries with leads are in a crate they are illegal. Good catch. Why is it an issue this year if it has been the same for the past 2? I guess it's a common sense thing. Something that didn't really need to be lawyered.

Is this a potential safety issue? Team's rushing on practice day to reattach leads to multiple batteries?

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

What I am not understanding about this ruling is making an assembled battery count towards your withholding allowance is something a team can fairly easily overcome.

Bring in wire and anderson connectors/crimps and assemble your batteries thursday morning...that is a pretty simple job for almost anyone on the team to do. Why force us to go through tons of wire and connectors for the simple task of carrying the batteries through a door into the competition?

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Utterly ridiculous. There's nothing else to be said about it.

Let's hope this is brought to someone higher up and a bit of sanity and common sense is applied to the issue.

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Okay so, I am going to get to the competition, take the connectors off the battery; when I get through the door, I will put them back on. It's only 2 bolts right? I am lost of words.

... Maybe, FIRST should have someone in the pit who is willing to put in those extra 5 mins to put the batteries together (heck, maybe there should be someone who is going to put together all the batteries for all teams attending the regional). I don't know about any other teams; but those 5 minutes me and my kids are going to waste on the batteries are very valuable to us on Thursday when we get to the regional.

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I just hope they have enough spares to cover the teams who mis-wire their battery in the rush and blow out their Jaguars, Victors, Spikes, Analog Breakouts, etc...

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I just don't see the point. There are tons of places where teams are on the honor code, why not just trust that teams haven't modified the batteries, and make them an exception to the withholding allowance. This produces tons of extra work for no foreseeable benefit or purpose.

And we get to do this at every competition....

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Simple answer: the GDC is committing acts of Lunacy with the way THEY'RE lawyering the rules this year.

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This is a very bad joke , right?

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

My last post was a bad joke. It remains to be seen if the whole battery-without-leads-or-its-not-COTS thing is a bad joke.

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This may be the dumbest ruling in GDC history!

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Depending on how you look at it, your leads with terminals crimped to the end could be considered a fabricated part, so you would need to not have that on there, but then if you just cut your terminals off, you have modified that lead into a non off the shelf state, so its still fabricated.

Actually if you want to further extend this idea, if your bringing in nuts and bolts, they would need to be separated, no nuts threaded onto bolts, unless you bought them that way.

To me, it sounds like this rule is being enforced a bit too harshly when it forces teams to start doing things like this.

HOWEVER, if you read the rule, and take its literal meaning, then it looks like we have been breaking the rules for a few years now, without realizing it. It is there in black and white, and has been for a few years now. If this is not changed before competition, you could take the leads off your batteries, then at that point the only fabricated parts are the leads for the batteries (you crimped ends on them) so only those would count in the weight, Rather than the whole battery. Also never hurts to check out the connections on your old batteries to make sure they are still good, etc (gotta look on the bright side sometimes)

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I was thinking the same thing....I know we've had trouble with the terminals not being fully tightened, and coming loose.

We really have to get that big crimper, and do it right. This might be the excuse we needed.

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I just can't see any good reason for the GDC to all of a sudden start making calls that are SUBSTANTIALLY different than what has been the norm for many years. Teams bring batteries with anderson connectors attached. Thats the way it's always been. Why change it? Even all the bumper nonsense. If you ask me, the rules on the bumpers, as originally written in the book were not intended to be substantially different from last year. People asked questions to clarify, and the GDC goes and basically changed everything. Its silly.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

It's more than just silly - it's absolutely ridiculous. You can't tell me that having every team remove and replace battery leads at every competition was the intent of this rule. As I stated in a previous post in another thread, the GDC is doing exactly what they've told us not to do - lawyer the rules instead of judging their intent. They seem to have lost touch with what the competition is about. FIRST is going to start losing members if they continue down this path. What is inpirational about removing and replacing battery leads at every competition just to comply with some asinine ruling. I hope nobody wrote year or battery numbers on their battery - that would mean that they are now modified and no longer COTS parts. If you try to remove the marker, you might scratch the surface so it will no longer be a COTS part. Unbelievable.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Come on guys and gals. The GDC has ruled that batteries (alone) don't count against the withholding allowance. If you shipped your batteries and cables in the crate you have to assemble them in the pit, and if you didn't you still have to assemble them in the pit. There isn't anything to complain about on this front. It is a good idea to go over all those connections anyway, there are a lot of loose battery connections at competitions.

In my opinion, a lot of these rules adjustments result from pressing the GDC to clarify, and then clarify some more, instead of just letting common sense guide the interpretation of the rules. I wouldn't accuse the GDC of lawyering. It would appear that teams force them into corners with the constant challenges, and many of the responses are guided by the need to avoid the next corner.

The only rub here is that the unplanned impact of the weight of the cables on the withholding allowance is unfortunate. If you are impacted by this, you can solve the problem with COTS battery cables, they are available from AndyMark. You can also have a team that is way under the allowance bring the battery cables in for you. We would certainly do it for you, and we are way under our allowance because we shipped our entire robot, battery set, and cables in the crate. No doubt someone will worry about the legality of teams helping each other in this manner, and will ask the GDC about it. More power to you...

The most amusing thing about all of this is the fact that batteries and cables don't count towards the weight of the robot!

Eugene

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Just for some more clarification, if you bring batteries to the competiton and already have the connections tied in, then the weight of those batteries will be considered part of your withholding allowance, but you can bring as many batteries as you want as long as you assemble the connections at the competition. It just sounds a little wierd and were hoping to bring as many batteries as we can so can someone tell me if this is right or not

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Completely agree. This is the same reason I always get mad at people asking teachers how long a paper has to be, then whine because they say it is too long. You should not have asked in the first place!

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Here is what I'm going to do:
1. I'm going to email my VirginiaFIRST rep and protest the ruling.

2. I'm not going to have my team remove the leads from the batteries. They are going to arrive at VCU, as they are now, in a black tote labeled "batteries." IF someone wants to check them as we arrive, they are more than welcome to do it. If the inspector informs us that they are illegal (Personally, I don't think that's going to happen.), we will remove the leads and put them back on 5 minutes later.

Yes, this may not be completely 'GP', but a little civil disobedience now and then isn't such a bad thing.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

That's all fine and dandy, but don't tell us not to lawyer the rules when they turn around and lawyer them themselves (regardless of the reason they are doing it). Especially when its happening now - there are teams getting ready for competition next week and now they have this stupid rule (that has no good reason to exist) to contend with.

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What if you spent a few days making sure every one of your batteries is done correctly? This ruling is absurd.

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Considering that the Q&A is meant to clarify rules, not create them, the ruling that batteries with cables are non-COTS has always existed, so if we used our common sense to infer that batteries with cables were COTS we were unknowingly breaking the existing rules. The questions that teams have asked building up to this ruling have been attempts to clarify that our original common sense understanding was indeed correct and there were inconsistencies with the Q&A's responses, not the other way around.

I don't understand how this could be legal. If it were, three teams could bring in three separate parts of a new robot, bolt it together, then have one team compete with it. My common sense tells me that's not what the withholding allowance is for. Since your common sense tells you one thing & my common sense tells you another, it looks like we need a clarification.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I believe you have accurately summarized the GDC's current position on fabricated battery assemblies. I myself don't think it's "right", but it's in the rules.

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For teams like us (and im sure there are many out there) who will be attending our first regional literally 1.5 miles from home (boston) this is a huge pain. Were certainly not going to ship out batteries a mile and half when we could just drive them over. Not to mention we have already cut our terminals to length and heat shrunk them. Why should we have to buy more terminals from andymark? Also you want to minimize the 6 AWG wire on your robot so if were were to connect a full length terminal we would be really stressing the wire and connections on the battery and at the connector end.

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The GDC doesn't just interpret the rules they write them. They could easily say that this is the letter of rule but it will be changed in the next update.

What they have ruled is totally insane.

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The real pain here is that this came out AFTER the bot was shipped. We had our allowance planned already, and it didn't include the batteries. If we had known, we could have packed the batteries into the crate and saved the pain. I don't understand the logic here. Regardless of the wording of the rules, based on past experience, this is a rule change, not a clarification.:mad:

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

What they have ruled is reasonably logical given that the Q&A is solely for clarification of rules, and as the rules stand a battery with cables attached is a modified COTS item. There is nothing to say that there won't be a team update excluding batteries from the withholding weight. If the GDC doesn't limit itself to only interpreting rules in the Q&A, and leaving changes for team updates then the whole system breaks down. The various channels have their purposes, and the Q&A's is to clarify existing rules.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Thanks I just wanted to be 100% sure it sounds wierd but battery connectons dont take too long so I guess we can deal with it. Also from looking at the other replies this appears to have become quite an issue so for those of you who are contacting FIRST please just keep us updated on your discussions.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I would tend to disagree.

I don't believe this is reasonably logical. It flies in the face of years and years of competitions and what has been legal in the past. This is rules lawyering at it's worst - literal interpretation of the rules without regard to intent.

I also disagree with your statement of "the whole system breaks down". This is FIRST's, and by extension the GDC's, game and rules. They have the ability to do ANYTHING they want to do. If they make a ruling in the Q&A, then pass it on in the Team Updates, then that's just fine. It would certainly save the chaos and confusion that this is creating.

Now, very hopefully, the GDC clarifies this in an update today. If not, I'm certainly going to regard their decision making process in a whole new light.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

FRC has decided to make parts of the New Control System reusable. That's right. If all goes well, teams will be able to reuse the cRIO, the modules, the bumpers, the digital side car, the power distribution board, the drivers station and a number of other items. We hope to keep costs down and reduce the impact manufacturing, shipping and scrapping these items has on our environment. With more than 1700 teams expected to participate this year, we can make a big difference with this small change in policy.

Above is a post from Bill's blog. Our team is attending 3 events if we have to cut the ring connectors off of the battery cables everytime we enter a new event we are being very wasteful. If we take 6 batteries to competition we will have used 12 before regional 1, 12 at regional 1, 12 at regional 2 and 12 more at regional 3 as well as 12 more when we get home for a total of 60 ring connectors. Hopefully the GDC will make an exception for batteries or hopefully I am misunderstanding the problem.

p.s. I may be purchasing ring connector stock anyone know any good suppliers.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

And the moral of the story is don't make assumptions. You made an assumption now you have to pay for it. Consider this a life lesson.
And yet the competition changes so what made you think that what has been legal for years and years is legal this year.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

FIRST and GDC can only make rulings if teams exist to be ruled upon. I am with you on waiting it out for today. If this decision making process continues, then I am not sure if it is even worth competing since all of us are going to be busy attempting to comply with ridiculous rules anyway. On another note - Shipping lots of batteries in the crate can be EXPENSIVE and break the budget. Isn't there any regard for that?

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I think you misunderstand the problem....as long as you have enough weight allowance to bring your terminated battery cable assemblies in, separate from your batteries, you should not need to do any of that.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

No "system" is going to be broken one way or the other here. However, last week I had two students spend 3 hours getting all of our battery cables to the right length and bolted properly and securely in the correct orientation, then insulated appropriately. I'm really not "feeling the vibe" for having to take them apart before our week one comp and putting them back together, just for the sake of walking through a door. It would indeed have been nice to know this sooner, I would have shipped all batteries with the crate and paid the overage. Wouldn't it be safer having teams show up with properly connected and insulated cables using the Andymark plastic plugs instead of having all teams needing to connect cables on batteries ... some fully charged ...in the pits???

I imagined that the 40 pound allowance might cause a few issues getting into an event and because of that we shipped the robot and controls in the crate. However, this is not something I anticipated at all. I hope there's time for folks to revisit this one.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Are you suggesting that everyone needs to have every decision they make that is not explicitly allowed by the rules approved by the GDC?

My thought process (I imagine 125 went through a similar process) for keeping our batteries in our shop was as follows:

1. We have reasons that make it beneficial to keep the batteries (testing, can be fully charged upon arrival, etc.)
2. We are within 20 min. of our regional and will easily be able to transport the batteries in minivans and/or pickup trucks that will be part of our caravan.
3. The definitions that would apply to this situation are identical to those in previous manuals.
4. In previous years batteries could be brought to competitions without counting as part of our allowance of Fabricated Parts.
5. Section 4 of the manual states that batteries do not have to be shipped with the robot and makes no mention of them being part of the Withholding Allowance.

You always have to make assumptions at some point, you will never have perfect information. The goal is to get enough information so that the assumptions have the greatest chance of being correct. If you see a major flaw in my thought process or feel that a reasonable person would review the objective statements I have made and come to the conclusion that the batteries should be shipped I would be interested to hear about it.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

When the rules explicitly state that the batteries DO NOT need to be shipped with the robot, it is then IMPLICIT that they are allowed to be brought in in unlimited quantities. Also, as vikesrock said, all the rules pertaining to this have NOT changed since at least 2007. If it was allowed then, even if it WAS 'against' the rules, precedent says it should be allowed now, because the rules were not modified in such a way that it was EXPLICITLY illegal.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Adam,

I'm tired and very pissed off at the GDC right now, so excuse my bluntness when I tell you that you're being a jerk. Cut the self righteous "You assumed and made an $@#$@#$@# out of me and you" garbage.

This ruling by the GDC is completely out of left field. Nobody saw this coming, and teams cannot reasonably in good faith expect the rules to change on such a massive scale AFTER ship date. This rule is such a departure from everything FIRST has ever said and done before that it just defies logic. Furthermore it has to be THE most useless ruling in the history of FIRST. What exactly is this going to do? What is the point? Teams will waste 30 minutes reterminating batteries...there is no competitive advantage to bringing in pre-terminated batteries.

To all those saying "well teams backed the GDC into a corner", I say not so. The GDC backed themselves into the corner when they chose to introduce a manual that was woefully inadequate in how it explained major portions of the rules. When this many experienced mentors cannot even agree on what the rules actually say, something is wrong. The Q&A should have solved that. Instead it made it worse-Q&A rulings that conflict with one another and make no sense, rulings like this, etc. Each new Q&A response further muddles both the letter and intent of the rule and teams are forced to ask further questions about everything under the sun to make sure they are in compliance with the rules.

The only life lesson here that I can see is that it's better to keep quiet and not say anything and compete with potentially illegal parts than do the right thing and ask for clarification on unclear rules.

PS. 254 will have plenty of ring terminals and heat shrink in our pit at regionals... we'd be happy to help teams reterminate their batteries (assuming heatshrink and ring terminals are still COTS by then)

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

This is an understatement and I am really glad that Oregon is not a first week regional this year. This will have to be fixed.

I also can only imagine the lines of teams trying to get in on Thursday morning while everything they bring in is checked... Imagine standing in line waiting to have your stuff weighed as it is brought in... If you are lucky you will be first in line... and have 59 other teams waiting behind you... at 1 minute per team that will take an hour... with two weigh stations it would be 30 minutes.....minimum... and that is based on 1 minute per team which will never happen.

I would hope that we are allowed to act as gracious professionals and police ourselves...

By the way, yes assumptions were made... but there have only been a few years when the batteries had to be in the crate.

The question to ask here is this:

We were encouraged to keep our control systems at home to work with them.
How were we supposed to use them without batteries?

One of the major points of the COTS and other rules from the past are to ship the whole robot... and not keep assemblies...however the rule this year didn't specify what we could keep. If the GDC had wanted ONLY the control system retained (and that was the purpose of the 40 lb rule..) because it was new... then it could have simply stated that..

Frankly i am getting pretty tired of trying to guess why a rule was instituted.
I have worked with federal regulations my whole life and intent was specified in a separate document along with the process of why the rules were made and what they were supposed to cover. If we understand the intent of a rule... we can design and specify systems to comply...

It seems that we are having to guess at the intent of rules this year.

In the past, many, many teams have been outside the allowed rules if we are now saying that the rule has always said that batteries with cables attached were not allowed to be brought in to the venue with the team.

I guess that in the end, my question to the GDC would be:

What is the purpose of making us reassemble our battery cables at an event?

Everyone has batteries... Everyone has to use them during the build season...
Why should we have to purchase more cable and connectors?

To say that you have to because its "in the rules" is a cop out..

We will see what happens tonight in the update.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

This was the only way I was able to get part of our robot painted black instead of purple :rolleyes:. Of course, I had to cover bases and ensure that it still looked tasteful in doing so.

Grab someone wearing a purple shirt in DC if you need extra help. Our competition batteries were shipped with the crate since we have an away regional, and the only batteries we may bring in are the ones we'd use for testing in the pits anyways ... and not on the field... (charging pneumatics before matches, testing motors that may or may not be burned out, etc).

Which brings up the point that this ruling is completely unenforcable if teams begin to claim that batteries are for testing and not competition; or it steps up a notch in absurdity and contradiction if they include non-competition batteries in the withholding allowance.

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No. You made the assumption that battery + wiring harness equates to a battery.
The rule makes perfect sense to me. If you can't get the part in that form from a manufacturer it's not COTS. There is a difference between being a jerk and pointing out reality. Would I have done the same thing? Sure.

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Just don't pre-cut the heat shrink to the proper length :eek:

As many have said before, this is a ridiculous ruling (even more than the no band-saws in the pits from two years ago). I expect them to back out of this one.

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just look at the speed the post count on these few threads is increasing at. Enough of us are sufficiently irritated about this to keep talking about it, and no doubt more than one of us are screaming to the GDC about it. I fully expect them to back down.

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I agree with most of what has been said. Cory's post basically sums up exactly how I felt on all fronts. The problem I see is that this is an annual thing. Each year the Q&A has had muddled answers that have only further confused/complicated the rules.

-Aside- I remember a question from 2005 that was referred to the triangular HDPE from the Automatic loading station. The question asked if we needed to be touching the plastic (or some other material) of the triangle in order to lift the tetra.
The response was something along the lines of "The triangle is made of HDPE, not plastic". -Aside-

Yes, we probably ask too many questions.
Yes, we lawyer the rules.

Why shouldn't we though? If we show up at an event, and they tell us this is illegal per rule XY, how do we fight that if we didn't ask a question about it. Yes we can plead ignorance, but will that benefit us in any way? We will be told that we should have posted it to the Q&A, and that we will have to redesign to compete. No one should take that chance, unless they have a simple redesign in mind already, and they know they could pull it off.

The Q&A does not seem like it is working to its potential right now. It can be a great system, if used properly.

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While this is true, and frustrations are showing themselves clearly here in CD, I truly hope no one is screaming at the GDC.

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I don't know if ChiefDelphi post counts are the deciding factor in any rulings the GDC makes. It's said that the GDC doesn't even read CD, though we know that one particular member does.

All we can do right now is vent and wait until 5pm. If we don't get the ruling we want, we'll have to come up with new plans of priority for Thursday. I'll be damned if I'm going to let an ill-constructed battery connector ruin any of the matches for my team or my alliance partners. All teams have a responsibility to have an opinion about this issue, because if you don't care either way then you better be prepared to have an alliance partner sit in front of the opposition because of a bad connection.

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Corey's got it exactly. Neither us, the teams, NOR the GDC, are using the Q&A correctly. If you ask me, I think our OVERUSE of the Q&A stems from the GDC's tendency of late to make ludicrous calls, like this one. They've always told us to follow the intent, and not the letter of the rules, but yet, when we grill them on it, they seem to respond based on the letter of the rules and not the intent. We need to stop asking questions like the one that caused this whole debacle about whether a battery + cables = NON-COTS. Every team I've ever seen bring batteries to a competition had connectors on their batteries. You have to put a connector on the battery in order to use it, and presumably you used them during build to practice with. The rules explicitly state that you're ALLOWED to bring your batteries to competition with you, so why would you EVER consider taking the connectors off of them, it just doesnt make sense.

EDIT: I meant screaming in a metaphorical sense, not literally ;)

EDIT2: The post count comment was purely meant to be used as a measure of how upset people are about this topic, not that the GDC would use that, just to demonstrate that there are lots of people upset, and understandably so.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I wouldn't say ludicrous, but we are forcing the issue on the GDC. We've done this before (see 2005 again), and we should definitely be monitoring our own questions a bit more.

However, that's a whole 'nother conversation. The GDC will do what they think is best and fair for all teams. I just hope these issues arise earlier in build next time.

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Unfortunately I believe I do understand the problem. We kept our bumpers and various items back and we did it not thinking that batteries would be an issue. We have not yet wieghed our items that we are witholding yet, however I do not believe that the six battery cables that I spoke of will help our effort very much unless we cut them extremely short. I am hoping for the best and we will make it work, we always do.

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The problem with this whole system is the fact that the rules aren't written in a way that their intents are obvious. Never would I have imagined that the intent of the withholding allowance was to make us practice wiring batteries, but that is clearly what the GDC is trying to tell us through Q&A.

In addition, I don't think the whole GDC even has a clear agreed upon intent for every rule (see: muddled Q&A posts that disagree with each other.) If the rules are supposed to be about the intent and "spirit" of the rules, why not just release those intentions? Doesn't seem to complicated to me...

for example:

<R10> Robots entered into the 2009 FIRST Robotics Competition shall be fabricated and/or assembled from COMPONENTS, MECHANISMS and COTS items that are constructed from:
A. Items provided in the FIRST-supplied Kit Of Parts (or their exact REPLACEMENT PART)
B. Allowed additional parts and materials as defined in the rules, and in quantities consistent with the Budget Constraint rules (found in Section 8.3.3).

<R10> Intention: This rule is intended to ensure that all teams have a more equal opportunity in the construction of their robot.

Each and every rule should have a reason to be in the rulebook. FIRST should just include those for us. We're all mature, gracious professionals, how about we get treated as such?

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I think the reason they don't explicitly put the intent IN the rules is because they don't want to stifle teams creativity when it comes to solutions to the game. Explicitly stating their intentions for how the game plays out will corner teams into one of a few designs, which is NOT what FIRST is about.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Unfortunately, I don't think asking questions to the Q&A is the problem.

I can see how a battery with a connector attached to it could be a fabricated item.

I can also see how a battery, commonly used by every team with it's connector attached could be an exception to the rule.

With both interpretations "valid" and "logical" ways of thinking, this allows for variation across the regionals. As aggravating as it is to have the more literal and less common sense (IMO) interpretation of the rule as the GDC's ruling, I think it would be twice as bad if it was left to each individual regional volunteer crew to make that decision as teams are walking in the door. Without it defined, you have more of a chance of one regional saying one thing and the other saying another.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I have one question. This is aimed at the members of the GDC who commonly appear on these forums, but it is not exclusively for them. In fact, I'm also looking for input from electrical engineers.

Are the batteries COTS after a build season of testing, assuming nothing is done other than to charge/discharge them, clipping leads on for that purpose with, say, alligator clips (yes, I know that isn't safe, but bear with me)?

You're asking, "Why did he ask such a stupid question?" 1) I'm a mechanical, not an electrical, and haven't had my one required electrical class yet. 2) I understand that there is a distinct difference between new batteries and ones that have been through a few dozen/few hundred charge cycles.

You heard me. (EEs, feel free to correct me on the above statement.) If there is a difference, and it's reasonably obvious, you wouldn't pay full price for a battery had been used before, right? You'd ask for a discount, right? So the batteries (by the GDC's version) are NOT COTS if they've been used a bit, like any normal team would do!

This changes the entire game plan. Now, you can only get 2, or if you're lucky, 3 batteries in your withholding allowance. So you have to buy new batteries for every event, or else only use 2. Guess how many batteries is enough in an event? Hint: it's almost certainly more than 2.

Somehow, I don't think this is what the GDC intended. I am lawyering a bit here, but if the GDC has defined COTS to be, effectively, "you'd pay full price for it", instead of "Commercial Off The Shelf" as it is intended, then it's a case of "you started it".

To everyone, the best thing I can say is to quote Dave Lavery from a few years ago: "Stop being LAWYERS and start being ENGINEERS!"

Edit: After looking at the Q&A more thoroughly, the GDC says that the batteries are COTS without the leads whether or not they've been charged/discharged. Double standard here? I.E., a gearbox, purchased from a vendor, can be used as is, and be worn to have a lot of slop, or some other characteristic that isn't immediately available, through normal use, and it isn't COTS, but a battery can get the same treatment and it's COTS?

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

The GDC has their reasons. I'm all for criticizing them for their flaws and their stupid rules**, but until I hear a justification for why they decided to this I really don't think its fair to give them a flare of the "magic finger" or spit out some "magic words" as many of your posts carry in either purpose or tone.


Pavan Davé

**Many of you know this about me.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Well, that's two rules IRI can change this year.:)

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

FIRST is supposed to make the teams want to be a part of this competition. Without that factor, what do we have?

In my opinion, this is a ruling that not even a single team could want.

In a global economy, engineering these days is often about efficiency. This ruling is not efficient. It needs to be reversed.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Are you sure you don't mean "the GDC works in mysterious ways"?
I haven't seen any magic fingers or words pointed at them yet, so you must be upset about something else. I have a great deal of respect for the GDC and its members, but they are just as human as the people posting in this and other related threads. There's no reason to act like their mysterious reasons are gospel, or that lacking faith is blasphemous. I don't understand the worship when so many well-respected people think this is as wrong as the GDC thinks it is right.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Honestly people, come on.

Take a step back, breath. Relax. And think for a moment.

The purpose of the Q&A is to clarify rules, not to create or modify rules. That is the purpose of the Team Updates. The GDC clarified a rule, as currently written.

If anyone honestly thinks this rule will not be updated in a Team Update, they are insane. Everyone with a bit of common sense realizes this was not the intent of the GDC rule, but it was how it was written.

Nobody, including the GDC, realized the implications of the COTS rules on batteries. The new withholding allowance caused teams to look at these rules from a different angle, which caused the teams and GDC to see this discrepancy.

Is it a good rule? No, absolutely not.

The GDC is not some superhuman being, they cannot see every problem coming.
Nor can they create team updates immediately to solve every problem (they have lives just like the rest of us). Yes, there was one today, but the changes in that one had likely already been discussed before this issue exploded.

If anyone is seriously suggesting the GDC answer the Q&A by anything other than the letter of the rules (as currently written), they are, once again, insane.

Chill out, give this issue some time. You all know how quickly the leads can be removed, you've posted about it constantly. If the rule does not change, you are more than capable of doing it before week 1. But if they do, and they will, you can save yourself those five minutes by being patient now.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

The battery does not count in the weight of the robot so I believe that conectors on the battery could not count either. I havew never been told to take the connector off the battery and put it on the robot at weigh in.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Here is the problem, as I see it. If, as you say, the Q&A can only clarify rules, and only team updates can add new rules, you have a very inefficient system. Why clarify a rule as it is if they are going to change it? A much more effective system would be the Q&A both clarifying and changing rules. If they see a problem with a rule, such as is the case with these battery rules, than in their answer they should say.

"This is what the rule says, however we see the problem and this is how the rule is going to change."

At that point the team updates would essentially be compilations of the rule updates. We don't care what the current rules mean if they are going to change anyways.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

We have every right to be upset when the GDC makes such a huge mistake. Don't tell me to chill out or call me insane.

This rule could have been interpreted in several ways, They didn't have to rule this way. As you say they are not superhuman beings, they should know how bad this ruling was and what a ----storm it would cause.

They could very easily have said in the answer that the rule was bad and would be corrected in an update and avoided all of this trouble. They chose not too. And in my opinion that was a HUGE mistake.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I'm not sure what makes anyone think that the whole GDC debates every Q&A answer.
In terms of the wording of the rules, it was cut and dry. Whichever GDC saw it on the Q&A first likely answered it. Then they took it back to the rest of the GDC to debate and ensure the GDC agreed upon changing it.

A single GDC member can't create a team update by themselves. A single GDC member can answer Q&A.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Somehow I've got the feeling that if this rule does turn out to be left unchanged, it would not surprise me if it becomes one of the "less enforced" rules of the competition (I'm sure most of you know what I mean). :rolleyes: ;) ;)

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Again I'm gonna disagree with you. The battery has never been included in the weight of the robot so why should it be included in the weight of the withholding allowance? It's not so cut and dried as you say.

Also whomever on the GDC that answered this question should have known how controversial the answer would be and should have consulted with other members before answering.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I see your point here for sure, and this little "twist" was certainly enough to get my attention today, but I will also say this as someone who spent three years configuring a Q&A and answering questions for the intermediate program. Everyone I worked with on that GDC made at least one mistake or took a misstep at least once a year in the Q&A, myself included. One time I answered a question solo that I really, honestly thought was pretty benign and two hours later my inbox started filling up with superlatives. I cannot imagine what this exhausting effort must be like in FRC where the volume of questions is massive compared to what I experienced in the other program.

In no way did I find today's post on batteries to be a "good" one, but there is a team update coming out Tuesday and I'm willing to wait for that to see what transpires. After I got done bemoaning this today with my team, we decided we'd pack everything for our week one regional as "normal" with all battery cables connected and, if Tues. team update doesn't clarify or change things, we'll pull the cables off in our hotel Wed. evening.

Yes, I'd prefer this system to get everything right the first time, but I'm also willing to be realistic about it all - even when it makes me grumpy.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I do believe there was a point in FIRST history when the weight limit was 130lbs with the battery on board, I think that rule changed as of 2004-2005.

Now a days though I don't see why (even if it might be considered a COTS item) a battery would give any advantage that would require a limit at the events. Batteries should be considered an integral part of the robot and should be treated separately from all other COTS items, while of course fitting into their own modification rules for safety purposes only.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Question: Do bumpers count in a team's Withholding Allowance? I'm searching through the Robots section of the manual but have not yet seen a clear indicator as to whether or not bumpers carried to an event are part of your withholding allowance.

If bumpers are not part of your withholding allowance, are they not Fabricated Items either? There seems to be a conflict of rules here, as the Withholding Allowance policy clearly only applies to "A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are permitted to be withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements," and I have seen no indication that bumpers are taken into consideration in this rule.

If batteries with terminals and leads attached are Fabricated Items and count against your Withholding Allowance, then bumpers must follow the same ruling.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

According to rule R11 it states: The 12V battery and its associated half of the Anderson cable quick
connect/disconnect pair (including no more than 12 inches of cable per leg, the
associated cable lugs, connecting bolts, and insulating electrical tape). By creating this rule FIRST has already determined that the battery and its associated quick disconnect are one piece and it has not been fabricated. Therefore their ruling on the Q and A is in contradiction of this rule and should be rescinded.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

This rule doesn't make any sense to me. Why would GDC want us to perform the somewhat trivial task of disassembling and reassembling all of our batteries just so that we can bring them in to the competition? What's the "intent" of this ruling? What positive impact does it have on the FIRST competition?

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

While I'm usually one of the ones talking about contradictions and the like, this isn't one of them. Just mentioning that the battery and its leads are excepted doesn't make them an indivisible assembly for the purposes of all of the rules.

Actually, the GDC's ruling is correct, based on the established definitions in the rules. The problem is that never have these definitions been applied to the batteries in this manner. That may have been due to a collective oversight, or may have been a natural extension of the special treatment that the batteries have long received (exemptions from weight, special conditions on use, etc.). Either way, it comes as a surprise to most.

There's also the issue of whether the GDC's answer is a good policy in general. I don't think it is. Many teams don't want to be burdened with rules that don't have much utility; some ignore the rules, some comply, unhappily. I think that some flexibility (issued in an update) would be advantageous, because it would be a sign that the GDC was willing to work toward a solution that benefits the participants collectively, while still maintaining the primacy of the rules.

On the other hand, it was suggested to me that by changing the rule at this point, FIRST would be disadvantaging the teams that complied properly in the first place. I'm normally a strong proponent of this rationale (precisely because teams will often ignore rules that they figure they can get away with) but I'm wondering, with the apparent scope of this confusion, whether there's more value in adjusting the rules for leniency, and bringing the rules in line with past practice (despite the fact that that practice may not have been technically legal in the past).

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I doubt there is any teat that explicitly shipped their batteries because they knew they would be considered part of withholding allowance otherwise.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Answer: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11895

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Okay, thank you very much for that. Apologies for not seeing that sooner!

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I know this does sound like lawyering the rules, but what if a VENDOR sold the specified MK ES17-12 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery (the one provided in the 2007-2009 FRC KOP) with the connectors and leads already attached to the battery. If this was true then we would avoid a great deal of Thursday work. We could do this because the battery would then be considered COTS given the team did not modify the COTS product prior to bringing it into their competition.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

If you purchased the battery connector from Andymark
http://andymark.biz/am-0009.html
You could then consider this COTS... and an unlimited number could come in.

You are correct that if someone sold the battery and connector together AND you purchased them... they could be considered COTS...

I personally find this (not your comment) ridiculous.
Why go out and purchase AM connectors OR some battery/cable combination just to use this rule?

We used a pneumatic crimper to put on the kit/supplied connectors correctly so we could use them during build season. (Just like we have done before this year..) We also use shrink tubing to protect them...

Now we will have to cut off our crimps/shrink wrap... crimp with some stop-gap method (because we have no pneumatic air supply at the event...) and redo the shrink wrap..simply because we followed a standard, safe, practice that we have used before and have never been called on and didn't expect to be before the ship date.

I don't disagree that by "strict interpretation" that the battery connectors are not COTS... I do disagree when a rule gives teams an advantage because they can purchase a solution and stay under the weight limit by spending more money.

I think that the rule is designed to prevent teams from developing new designs and continuing to work on more than 40 lbs of them after ship date. What advantage does a team have to working on their battery connectors after the ship date?

As I have mentioned before, I believe that the 40 lb rule was designed so that teams could keep their control system and some other subsystem and continue to try to figure out how to use it throughout the season because the control system was new to FRC..

I am wondering what will happen at an event if a team brings in more than 40 lbs... when they find out about the battery rule.

I know many teams that have 6-8 (or more)batteries... and have always had that many for all other years...

2008 rule
The entire ROBOT(including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) and OPERATOR CONSOLE must be crated and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in Section 4.5.1.1.
Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the ROBOT.

2007 rule
The entire ROBOT (including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) and OPERATOR CONSOLE must be crated and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in Section 4.5.1.1.
Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site.

2006 rule
R29> Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS,REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/orupgrade their robot at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the robot during
the competition must arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the robot.

Were we ALL in ignorant noncompliance for all of those years if we didn't ship the batteries with the robot? The rules about shipping batteries have changed over the years... some years we MUST ship batteries (and operator console) and other years we were told that it was not necessary...
If you had 2 batteries and had connected them in the years that it was optional... you were in noncompliance.

Let's just make this easy on everyone... and encourage batteries to be excluded in the rules...the same way the operator console is specifically excluded from the 40 lb rule. It is really just busy work to have to attach and reattach our battery cables at every event...what is the point? We are not redesigning the cable mount... or gaining any real advantage...

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I'm going to chime in with this being one of the (few) advantage of shipping from England. For whatever silly reason, we can not ship the batteries in our crate, nor can we back them as luggage on the plane. Instead, we get one or two from FIRST, and then try to beg and borrow more batteries from other teams to practice and run with.

I get to just sit back, say "Man, that sucks" and go on trying to figure out if the cRIO can be in a carry on.

Wetzel

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

But Wetzel, it does potentially affect you. Maybe that team that might have lent you a battery out of its supply of 8 now decides instead of dealing with the hassle of all the leads, they will only have 4 batteries at the event. They will have enough for their team to get by, but not any to lend out.

And as a footnote to those who have been saying, "We shipped the batteries" or "We would have shipped the batteries had we known of this" - that requires disconnecting the leads.
So beside a cost savings of carrying them in yourself, if the leads are allowed to be attached, you have a time savings over other teams that shipped.

That doesn't make this a good decision - the precedent set over the last several years argues against making this decision now. Even in years when you had to ship batteries with the robot, you only had to ship the batteries from that year's kit, if I recall correctly. You could have brought extra batteries from prior years (if they met the specs for current batteries) or others that you had purchased new.

One other bad sidebar to this - the Anderson connectors should be built new each year. You can use an old battery, but you can't use a fabricated item built before kickoff. Don't anyone DARE ask that question to Q&A!!! Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

If this ruling stands,i wonder if First in Michigan could change it.We do have different rules already.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

While your at it maybe you could get rid of <G24-A> too. :rolleyes:

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

What Q&A post did the original ruling come from? I was looking through the consolidated Q&A, and voila:

Thing is, it does not specify what "in compliance with Rule <R38>" means, but it is a start.

Edit: Ok, here is what I get for not looking through the rules. <R38> is the rule that specifies the type of battery that may be used, not anything about the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Therefore, it seems, unless the Q&A mentioned at the beginning of the thread was made after this post, unlimited batteries can be brought to competitions.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Sure, you can bring all the BATTERIES you want, but you can't bring all the batteries you want.;)

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

No offense, but being sarcastic won't really help you here (although being SARCASTIC might). Even if you have your mind set on not bringing your batteries to the competitions, please don't try to ruin it for people who do. As far as I can see, the Q&A ruling is pretty specific on allowing us to bring unlimited batteries.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

BATTERY to battery as is BUMPER to bumper. Oh ,nevermind, the wife doesn't like my jokes either.:)

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

The question asked to the GDC was regarding a "battery" compared to a "battery assembly"- they are not the same thing. It was clear that you could bring unlimited batteries (that would be like they come in the box - no connectors installed), but it was not clear about assembled batteries - with connectors installed.

the decision provided by the GDC is consistent with other parts - i.e. you can bring in spare motors as unlimited COTS, but if you install a sprocket on it then it is an assembly or mechanism, and part of the weight restrictions.

batteries have always been an exception to many of the other rules, and most of us assumed the same exception for this year, but the question was asked to avoid a surprise on Thursday morning and to get an official response. Many of us do not like or agree with the response, and maybe it will change, but for now it is the ruling and so we are adapting to it and will be compliant.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

You're correct, but if we look at the INTENT of the 40 lb withholding allowance rules (as we are told to do by the GDC) it is to allow us to keep the control system back to work on it (which requires batteries with leads to power by the way). I even understand clarification needed on what is considered COTS and what is a MECHANISM, but I can't believe the intent of the whole thing is to keep teams from gaining an advantage by pre-wiring their batteries. There is no advantage - it is a waste of time to disconnect batteries just to walk in the door and reconnect them - the ruling is asinine and needs to be corrected.

Sorry - I'm obviously somewhat bitter about this one. I know its a relatively small thing, but it's been stacked on top of a bunch of what seems to be unnecessary lawyering of rules done by the GDC this year. It's putting a serious damper on what should be a very fun process.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I am usually not one to criticize, but having to reattach the wires to the batteries this year is a real pain in the tuchus. How legal of them.

:mad:

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

agreed this is quite ridiculous of them... But you know what i dont really care, il take em off and get someone to reattach them... Big deal.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Correction: it is a waste of time to disconnect batteries just to walk in the door, weight the disconnected leads as part of the 40lb limit, and reconnect them.
(Note, I am not sure if there will or will not be weighing of the 40lbs allowance, Bills Blog says "weighed if necessary")

If you attached lugs to your batteries (which you probably did, unless you bought them COTS from AndyMark) they could be considered a FABRICATED ITEM and thus subject to the weight limit. Those 6 gauge wires weight enough that they could push you over the limit if you are not careful.

I also wonder if old batteries (not MK ES17-12) are subject to this ruling? They are legal to use in practice matches (could be useful if you are still attaching leads to the other batteries) and the pit but not in the actual competition.

It just doesn't make sense to me to include batteries in any weight limit if they are excluded from the 120lbs robot weight limit . I think bumpers should be excluded too (but they are not).

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I have to interject a word of caution here. Don't read into this it is simply a word of caution. IF the GDC does not make a change in this interpretation, then most teams will be sitting outside in the cold, cutting away carefully applied heatshrink and electrical tape used to insulate the battery terminals. Then they will be dropping tools on the exposed terminals, carrying the batteries against the conductive metal of their zippers and dangling chains around their necks or bumping into conductive parts on the people, backpacks and coats in front of them. Eager freshmen will tire of holding the battery while waiting patiently for the pits to open and in colder areas will not be able to grip the battery with gloves and drop it on themselves or others. Please keep in mind that the battery is 12 pounds and dropped from a distance of a few feet, can easily break toes and might damage the case to the point of leakage. Please also be aware that the battery is a 7200 watt device capable of 600+ amps and in the case of exposed terminals, can weld tools, chains and other metals. If you will be removing your battery cables to comply with this rule, be aware of the dangers. Plan accordingly when faced with this added hazard to minimize injury at your venue. Don't take short cuts in safety even though it is only for a few minutes.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Very wise Al, thanks for the words of caution I know that we will benifit from them. Ecspecially since we will be attending the Buckeye regional which will be one of the cold regions that you are speaking of.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

So, this is what I'm reading: the rule is not only asinine, but dangerous?

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

What Al is pointing out is that it can b dangerous if teams do not excercise caution while they are trying to stay legal. Just don't make the Freshman be the only ones holding and working with the batteries take turns and come prepared.:)

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Potentially. But is it the safest thing in the world to have a verifiable army of teenagers and adults cram themselves into a 10'x10' space with robots that can launch trackballs over 6 foot overpasses, vomit squads of foam basketballs 20 feet and move 150 lbs of stuff at 17 fps? Probably not. Of course, making a potentially dangerous situation more hazardous is not very smart.

I understand that this issue is different (Although I too think unattaching our leads outside the door and reattaching them after crossing the threshold is one of the silliest things in the world), but I doubt anyone will come to serious harm. I'd be much more worried about robots that loose power on the field due to faulty connections. That drags everyone down, both on the team and in the stands.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Sometimes, I lose all respect for the GDC. Remember when we had to ship 2 batteries in the crate because of a dumb rule, causing many teams to go over the 400 lb limit and costing hundreds of dollars in unnecessary shipping?

This year we have yet another black sheep: Hundreds of exposed leads, hundreds of hours wasted, hundreds of students having to be miserable all so the GDC can be content with their rules? It's a trend, but I don't understand why it has to exist. Does the GDC have an ego problem? Do their stomachs wretch at the phrase "we made a mistake?"

GDC, I respect your work. I love the ideas and consideration that go into making a new game every year. But you are not perfect.

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

I'd be highly surprised if any member of the committee thought they were.

It seems like this thread has more or less said all there really is to say. We're now aware of the GDC's current interpretation of the rules, and (for the Understatement of the Week) I think there's a feeling of the general consensus of ChiefDelphi users. I'd also note that this thread was started on Friday morning; I doubt that the discussion that has taken place here could've hit the radar of any of the appropriate people, let alone a solution implemented, before last Friday's update went to press.

Perhaps it'd be best to give this thread the weekend off and only resume our collective howling/grumbling/offers-of-hugs-and-screwdrivers-to-Week-1-teams if the next Team Update (that'd be #15, for those playing at home) doesn't offer some kind of amicable resolution or guidance? It'll be cutting it close for the Week 1 set, yes, but there's not much that can be done in the meantime besides entering the caption contest or finalizing some Fantasy FIRST picks. (Or, you know, sleep.)

Re: Batteries Carried Into Competitions
 

Thanks for listening...
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...pdate%2015.pdf