How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Just wondering with all the talk of the details of the Witholding Allowance (whether you agree with all of them or not) if anyone has heard or seen anywhere I may have missed as of right now, how exactly it is being enforced at events.

Please don't discuss any specific flaws or advantages of the Witholding Allowance as you see them here (there are other threads for that), just post if you have seen if there is any official word as to how it is being enforced.

Thanks!

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Here's a reference to Bill's Blog on the subject, just for more cannon fodder.
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009...-regional.html

What I've heard for the DC regional is that they want everyone to put their parts in a separate box to be weighed, and that they will check and weigh everyone's allowance. The details may change though, and the squeemish part is that we'll have to wait until next Thursday to see for sure.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

I'll have to look at the link when I get home as blogspot webpages are blocked at work (a seperate irritating issue of the season alltogether for understanding or even getting official news from FIRST which I'm sure affects more folks than myself) but thank you Jesse for the link.

I'm sure I'll be back posting about this later when I can read the blog.

If someone can post what is on that site here that would be great btw.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

That's funny because the DC RD just told me that they were just going to trust that the teams aren't bringing in the kitchen sink...

Plus, the procedure on Bill's Blog isn't the load in procedure we are being told to use at the DC regional (sent last week).

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

At the CT Regional we will be weighing any team that does in fact bring in a kitchen sink.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

At the Chesapeake Regional, we will be weighing any team that brings in a kitchen sink (or other major appliances) or an extra robot...

[Although an exception might be made as I see 303 is coming to the Yard this year, and I remember they had a pretty impressive Fridge ;) ...]

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Any team bringing a kitchen sink, any major appliance or a spare robot to New Jersey or Pittsburgh will be weighed. Now I just have to find a scale big enough to fit a team...

Seriously! I expect to follow what I understand to be the intent of <R36> (allow teams more time to work with their control systems) and just look out for anyone trying to bring in greater than half a robot. Or a kitchen sink.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Anne, Mike, Jenny & Pete, I thank you very much so for being light-hearted about this situation! :)

I'm not sure if the 4 of you have read some of the comments in the other Witholding Allowance threads, but it seemed to have gotten a lot of people (not necessarily whole teams) a bit riled up. (Big surprise right?? :rolleyes: )

Anyways, my hope is that every regional is as flexible as you all are being here & that teams don't get too worked up about some of the (relatively) crazy details in this clause this year & are understanding as well.

Also, if the 4 of you have any influence in regards to FIRST releasing some info on this in a future pre-regional event E-Mail blast about this situation to "calm the masses" so to speak, I'm sure a lot of people would be very grateful!

Thanks again!

Sincerely
-Elgin Clock

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

We will be bringing in a large 32lb assembly. We plan on taking it straight to the inspectors to have it weighed and OK'd.

As long as teams are proactive like this I don't see a big problem occurring.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

I dont know. It seems to me to be a fairly difficult rule to enforce, just as it always has been. Everyone knows there have been dishonest teams in the past who've brought parts built after build season into a competition and gotten away with it. Allowing 40lbs just makes their past practices closer to being legal, but if they're over the 40lbs, they'll still find a way to hide it. I think its a rule that is likely to go relatively unenforced.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

This is a grounded, calm approach to problem solving. Thanks for the input, Indy.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Dear jane,please don't go to the battery thread. You seem to be a very level headed ,nice person. Right now is not the time for ," rules are rules". I don't want to see you get lambasted. We need to vent.:)

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

John,
Vent all you want. If I get lambasted, I can take it. Thank you for your concern, though. :)

P.S. - sorry John, I had already posted in one of the threads before reading your kind warning. I just noticed that.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Oh, and if that kitchen sink is COTS, are you still going to weigh it? ;)

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

If I washed my hands in it is it still considered COTS? I packed it back up!;):)

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

I stand corrected. Teams may bring in as many unmodified kitchen sinks and major appliances as they can fit in their pit stalls.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

This thread is going down the drain...

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Glad to be coming back down again :) Perhaps this is the year 303 brings down another kitchen appliance named robot!? :ahh:

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

When Bill's Blog mentioned 'we will be checking', I had a flashback to Thursday am in Houston in 2002. There was one poor Astrodome employee who opened the doors, then turned an faced a huge crowd of FIRSTer's, all with toolboxes and assorted spare parts in their hands. He asked me to open my toolbox, announcing that they had to search everyone for knives and other 'sharp objects'. I gently explained to him that everyone was carrying something that had a pointy end to it, but assured him we were all harmless. I laughed all the way to the pits.

When I read the blog.....I thought....'not again'. In Israel we will have armed guards, but they will not be looking for kitchen sinks.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Nice :D

Can we fit a hot tub in the pit area?

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Whew! That means our bathroom sink is safe...
Provided it meets all other rules, and is smaller than the allotted area (often 10 x 10 feet, but sometimes less), I don't see why not.

Just note that you are not allowed to bring in your own water...and at about $2.50 per half-liter.........:ahh:

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

You can bring it and weigh it, but I am not going to "OK" it until it is on your robot and we are checking through the inspection list or looking for safety issues. I don't know about the events you have attended, but most of those that I have attended, the entry area and the inspection area are on different floors and separated by several hundred feet.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Oh Al as my favorite inspector you should know what I meant. I just meant OK that it's under 40lbs and we are legal under the rules. Not necessarily the robot inspectors, but whoever is in charge of inspecting withholding weight.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Is there such a position? I didn't see it on the list of volunteers for Traverse City. Or will they expect the robot inspectors to do double duty, in two different places? And what scale will they use? "Oh, sorry, no inspections or robot weigh-ins on Thursday morning because we're too busy verifying parts going in the door."

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Unless you come to Chesapeake. We are proud of the tradition where we let you bring into the pits: water (for drinking or for your pit sinks) and food. However, the USNA requests you do not bring food/drink into the stands. Help us by cleaning up your mess and this perk will continue.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

I'm wondering, with this discussion popping up and the battery discussion, if the event supervisors will step up enforcement of this rule. Awareness seems to be quite high, and with the GDC's ruling on the battery issue, they should really make sure the rule is followed. At Wisconsin they never checked/weighed our parts, they trusted us to do the right thing. But that might have just been because if they had taken the time to check everything, half the teams would be frozen solid :)

Just take extra care to make sure you don't goof up.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Garret.
I think it is just the opposite. The vast majority of teams do what they can to follow the rules and act in as GP a manner as is possible. With repsect to the latest interpretation of the battery, teams will disassemble their batteries to be compliant. It is what makes my job easier than it could be. I have to say that in perhaps 20 or more events of 50 or more teams, I have only found one team that willfully violated the rules and one that gave me a hard time about inspections but had not violated anything. Of all those things that did not pass in inspections, the team was not trying to hide anything, but they all failed to read and keep up to date on the revisions and updates. In a rare instance, teams failed to correct an item even after it was pointed out to them.
I will respect you until you give me a reason not to.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

why am I getting that sinking feeling....

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Sigh. 1676 has disassembled all of their battery connectors. Whether we agree or not is irrelevant - the rules are the rules, sometimes they don't seem to make sense, and sometimes they are made just to add some complexity to the 'problem'... but if everyone has to follow them, it's just as good (or bad) for everyone.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

McMaster has too many sinks, I can't decide. ;)

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Don,
I am advising everyone to wait until the last second or at least until the Team update comes out tomorrow.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Rich,
What about p/n: 2642K95 ????

Its not a sink, per say.....


-Brando

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

It's not at McMaster, but here's a nice one.

I'll second Al's advise to all week one teams to wait and see what today's update has in store before disassembling battery cable assemblies. (Everyone have their fingers crossed?)

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

We will be waiting to disassemble our battery assemblies. If the stay of sentence doesn't come form the GDC we will be doing it on the ride from Indy to Cleveland Wednesday evening.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Good thing if you waited. See Team Update 15. Thanks, GDC.

Also notice, withholding allowances will be "spot checked".

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Believe it or not, I had faith in them :)

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Guess that answers my original question officially! :)

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

I guess I am really confused. What are they meaning when they talk about the battery assemblies.

In a nutshell what could be in the withholding allowance?

I see the rule: <R36>
Teams may bring a maximum of 40 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE
PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING
ALLOWANCE items) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their
ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT
during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with
the ROBOT.
• Exception: the OPERATOR CONSOLE is not included in the incoming parts weight
restriction.



Thanks.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Spare and/or Fabricated parts you can bring into the competition.
Read the manual & Search for Witholding Allowances, & then go re-read update 15 for how it pertains to batteries/battery assemblies (batteres with the power cables attached).

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Ok, I read it. So now there is no limit to the weight of the batteries we bring and we can leave them totally assembled. If we have no manufactured extra parts, do we count raw materials such as extra sheet of lexan, in case ours gets torn, bumper extra material? Or is it only things manufactured.

Thanks.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

If the sheet of lexan, plywood, pool noodles, and bumper fabric would all need to be cut to be used on the robot then they do not count towards the allowance. They would count as RAW MATERIALS as defined in Update 14. Unlimited RAW MATERIALS and COTS items may be brought to the event according to <R35> as amended in that update.

Only FABRICATED ITEMS as defined in section 8 of the manual must be counted in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

What about bumpers?
What about Michigan teams where we have a plastic bag we put the robot in.
How much stuff did teams cram in there.

Thank you so kindly.
That is what I needed to know.

I really appreciate it.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

This is how I interpret it

Bumpers count in the 40lbs if they are not in the bag.
Robot/bag do not count.
You can put anything in the bag you want, I would suggest straying away from tools so it doesnt look like you were trying to work through the bag.

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Sigh (again). Too late.
Well, at least Navin got plenty of practice connecting up batteries. Again.
If there is a silver lining in all this, they look somewhat better the second tme around...

Don

Re: How is the Witholding Allowance at events being enforced?
 

Don,
Now that you are at that point, I have our team put star washers (external tooth) between the battery terminal and the wire terminal before adding the hardware. This prevents the two from twisting past each other and loosening the mounting hardware. We finish with heat shrink.