FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

First, I honestly do not know where this thread should go. The previous ranking was moved to the "Games/Trivia" forum, but I don't believe it belongs there. The "Games/Trivia" forum is a sub-forum of the "Chit-Chat" forum, where "off-topic discussion" occurs. This certainly is not off-topic, yet it belongs to none of the other forums.

Each week, there are top 25 rankings for sports. In the AP Poll, highly qualified sports addicts and writers vote on who they think the top 25 teams are for each sport. This poll is similar, where FIRST addicts vote on who they think the top 25 teams are for the FRC. Voters picked teams based on success shown at competitions in the past, consistency of the team, and robot design and function. This week, seven of the voters submitted complete lists, and the results are based solely on those lists. Some voters have revealed themselves in the thread for the previous ranking. The next ranking will follow the Week 1 Regionals.

1. 1114
2. 254
3. 968
4. 148
5. 217
6. 71
7. 111
8. 233
9. 330
10. 67
11. 1024
12. 25
13. 987
14. 16
15. 2056
16. 365
17. 1126
18. 118
19. 33
20. 103
21. 27
22. 39
23. 121
24. 180
25. 469

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I'm not sure how you can rank without seeing some of these robots, never mind how the game will play out..

I for one think scoring moon rocks will be disadvantageous, and 1114 will be nothing more than a glorified paper weight this season.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I am really glad you can rank teams based solely on videos they have put up. Most of which scored on non-moving trailers.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Take it easy guys, lets not forget this teams have a tradition of being very, very good.
It's just a pre-competition ranking. If you disagree then you can prove them wrong later in the year.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

No offense, but I don't see any way to "objectively" define this. I mean, you can think that this or that robot is the best, but how can you know? I'm sure you haven't seen some of these robots yet (my team is one of them). We don't compete until week 3 either, and I'm sure some other teams on your list fall into a similar situation.

Nevertheless, this is interesting speculation. I feel honored to be on this list ^.^

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

This list makes no sense to me. Over half the robots on this list have yet to be seen.

I also doubt your testing methodology as 7 people is not large enough for a statistical distribution of opinions, considering that those 7 people probably all know each other and share the opinions.

I would argue that this game is SO different then past years that ranking based on reputation alone is not a valid ranking criteria.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I'd have to disagree. How can scoring points be disadvantageous?

One of the smartest and adaptable teams on the planet will not be a paper weight. They will help decide how this game plays out in the coming weeks.

20 seconds is not that long to score SCs. 100 seconds just with moon rocks can be devastating when you look at teams of 1114's caliber.

Did 125 concentrate only on super cells?

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Hmm... no 2022... Probably because we didn't put a video of our robot running. Oh how I wish I had recorded some of it... To late now, see you at Chicago.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I thought your 'preseason rankings' had more merit (though I was a little critical of that one) because you were ranking teams solely based on reputation. But, now you are comparing apples to oranges; team's reputations (71, 233...) with videos, pictures and stories (180).

Also, by whoever moved this, also set a precident and by all these rankings and predictions will be moved to 'chit chat'. I don't know if Looking Foward will enjoy being pushed into chit chat.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Lets just take this at face value, its a poll that only 7 people filled out.. a guess and nothing more. Don't get all riled up over nothing, but use this as a motivation to show the list wrong.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

If you had read the post, it is not myself that is ranking these teams, but seven other people. I will never partake in the voting.

And yet, somehow seven people out of the eleven prompted found the means to submit to me a logical list of who they thought were the top 25 teams in FRC.

Again, I did not rank any teams. Other people did.

Hey, it's better than the six that voted last time. :rolleyes:

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

While the game is quite different than years past, teams which have good reputations are probably very capable of adapting to the new challenges. But we'll get a better idea of what will happen in two days. ;)

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

good list....although I cant see why "you"(whoever voted) would include a teams reputation in the criteria......i would argue that new teams would stand a better chance of adapting to this game?

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I disagree with the precedent set, but from now on, I willl politely put the rankings into the "Chit-chat" forum. Apparently this is Off-topic and belongs with discussions about anime, food, and woot.com.

For the record, this is the message I sent to the voters....

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

"Glorified" as in "covered in Championship banners"?

I suspect Tom's tongue is so far into his cheek that he looks like he is smuggling moon rocks in his mouth.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I've seen this argument several times so far this year, and it bugs me every time I read it. The teams that consistently do better do so because they are able to figure out how games will play out and dedicate a lot of time to building their robots/practicing. They are not just experienced at driving on carpet, they are experienced at coming up with clever solutions.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Disagreements, disappointments, and misinterpretations aside, will Looking Forward be making a reappearance this year?

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

If he does, I'm certainly looking forward to it.

I also agree that an accurate ranking can't really be done already. Although the teams on that list are all great in their own right, we just don't know yet.

-Vivek

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

So far I've seen alot of good designs cropping up here on CD, and you can't forget the hundreds of other teams that havn't shared anything yet. I think this will be a year of surprises and black horses, and I wouldn't see the legitimacy of any ranking of the robots until the end of the season.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Folks, if you don't like that only 7 people submit lists, PM Josh and ask to be included. This includes you, Tom, unless you were indeed tongue-in-cheek (and didn't submit one).

gorrilla, the rookies don't know (or didn't) the system. Vets did. There are exceptions (notably 2775--Greg, I hope you submit a full list next round--and 2753), but the vets have: past experience, a look at the control system long before any rookies (talks started last year), and the knowledge of a successful building method. Rookies have to draw on the experience of local veteran teams.

For the record, I had a list ready before it was requested, based on the released videos and the "complaints" last time. No rookies this time, though I was tempted.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Eric:I just dont think rookies get the credit they deserve, I mean, I saw(and still see) lots or great looking rookie teams out there,

experience in good building and engineering practices definitaly helps, but as far as actually playing the game, this year, I think everyone really does have just as good a chance as anyone else

you could have a great robot, but if you cant play the game you wont get that far(i think everyone saw this 2005 and 2008)...

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

As one of the voters, I encourage whoever wants to join to do so. Eric pointed out 2 of the 3 rookies I'm watching out for. 2775 and 2753. 2753 is mentored by 303, 11, has influence from many successful veteran teams and is indeed the 08 FTC world champion team. We were all tempted to include them but as much as a team can deserve to be on a list they just didn't belong there with those veteran teams. Hope nobody gets all touchy from these "rankings." Tis all fun'n games. Good luck to all for this coming weekend. :)

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

There's "great looking" and "great performing". While they are not mutually exclusive, particularly since the former tends to follow the latter, great looking != great performing. One of the most convincing performances of a rookie was by the last pick in Arizona 2006. Their robot looked like a nightmare, to be quite honest. They won the event. Really good looking robots don't always do well either. You can't go by looks when evaluating a team. If you think differently, you have a lot to learn.

Rookies aren't showing up because we don't know much about them. I bet that by the end of the season, some will be making a run at the list.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Of course--they haven't had an opportunity to build a recognizable brand. If you had to buy a plane ticket, right now, to see a regional where Simbotics was competing or a regional where Los Pollos Locos was competing, where would you be flying? Why? If I weren't affiliated with the latter, I'd probably be flying to Chicago to see the team with three or four years of dominant robots.

No, they don't. Experience helps, but then how do you explain five-year teams that have worse-looking robots than rookies? There will always be teams that show up at these events that don't have a prayer, veterans and rookies alike.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

If people aren't happy that they aren't on the list, then go out and make your robot known as being "one of the best of the best". If your mad about the top 25 thing then disregard it and keep reading all the other threads on the site. If your in the top 25, it doesn't mean a darn thing, there's no prize for being in it.

Just my $0.02

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I don't understand how scoring points can be DISadvantageous.:confused: With 120 moon rocks on the feild, if 90 of them get scored, that is 180 points that could sway either way. And with 8 super cells if only 5-6 (apx. the same ratio) getting scored, could be 75-80 points on either side. I beleive the super cells are important for obvious reasons, however it's also obvious that the moon rocks are just as, if not, more advantageous. I beleive 1114 proved last year that if you can hurdle 7 times(akin to scoring apx. 30 moon rocks) placing (akin to scoring super cells) is not as important, even though it is still important.

just my $0.02

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

definately didn't see him say "just my $0.02" before I posted. I guess great minds think alike.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I didn't vote.

But this list is solid. Everyone on that list has proven themselves in their consistency over the last few years. You really don't even need to see pictures or videos to make that list. I think it's fun.

:D

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

i happen to be one of the voters...

And i would like, once again, to remind everyone that this is just a game.

Beeing asked to rate teams fropm all around the globe is no easy task. There is no chance for me to consider teams that are quite new and have no videos or pictures of their design here.

I have top ranked 71, without even seeing their design. This is a team i know will perform greatly year after year, and i know that without seeing their robot.

Besides - if you guys haven't seen pictures or videos of some robots in this video, it doesn't mean that the voters haven't. Look at Looking Forward's predictions, he has some info on robots that i personally don't have, and maybe some of the voters have that information or more.

And again, if you do not agree with those rankings you are more than welcome to post them here, or even better try joining the voters, i'm not sure how they are picked but you might easily be one of them.

We would all be very excited to see all of those 25 teams that are here now beeing in the top 25 when the season is over, but we all know that won't happen and that is exactly why we all like FIRST and any other kind of sports - the unknown guranteed to happen at many of the regiponals, in many of the games. If this prediction would have been entirely correct there would be no reason to attend or watch any regional, but you still are going to do it, and you still are going to be excited to see the first match that any of those 25 teams participate in during the wekk one regionals.

So please, if you have any complaints about this list and it's organizer and voters you may either post here your own opinion, or just completely ignore the whole thread. This is not something we say you must follow, this is no rule and no solid state of teams - it's just a prediction, motivated by intuition, knowladge and scouting done by each voter.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

The AP polls work because the game doesn't change from year to year and only a few members from each team change. Also, writers can evaluate recruits and make judgements based on that. So, ranks can be established at the start of the season.

They work because each team has at least one game every week (depending on the sport). There are teams who only go to one regional.

I liked the idea at first, but after thinking about it, it doesn't seem feasible for the reasons I've listed above.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

How can you make a post ship list not including a single team that was at the only scrimmage utilizing an official FRC competition field and control system?

Out of 40+ teams at the Suffield Shakedown some of whom have powerhouse reps I would expect to see at least one here...

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I would say that his list is about right. Based on previous years achievements and current video/pictures of robots, those standing are accurate. 1114, 258/968, 111, 71 will always be in the top 10 of best robots every year, atleast for "preseason" polls. These teams here ALWAYS build robots, that no matter what their objective is, that compete and WIN. I've been in FIRST the better part of 5 years and those 5 teams there have never failed to build an amazing robot. The reason their in the top 25 now is because they have a background of winning, and beautifully built robots.

If you want to be on the top 25, prove it. Go out there and let your robot do the talking. If your not recognized, so be it. You know your good. Your alliance will be even better when they catch you in the second round of pickings because you fell a few slots to other alliances picking "top 25" teams.

BTW, I disagree, 254 should be number 1 :D

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Making a post-build Top 25 list without seeing half of the robots is like forecasting the weather based on what happened yesterday.

Sure, you might get it right more than half the time (Farmer's Almanac, I'm looking at you!), but it's genuine accuracy should be taken with a fairly large grain of salt until these teams either prove or repudiate their past record for the 2009 season.

IMHO, it's better to be a sleeper robot coming into the first Regional competition, because it throws everyone off guard. And since this list is conspicuously absent of any of the powerhouse Northeast teams (including some who've made it onto Einstein more often in the past few years than most of the teams in this list) save 121, I suspect there will be a lot of sleepers this year.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

But Art, all we're good for up here is defense. ;)

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

The list I submitted included 4 northeastern teams... just because they didn't make the top 25 doesn't mean nobody voted for them.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I had at least one that isn't on the list.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I noticed that 1124 was absent from the list after taking home a division champion and regional champion trophy. Also, 177 seemed to be missed even though they've been on Einstein the past three years and won it all one of those years.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

TEAM 85= #1

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

1- 85
2- 47
3- 141
4- 217
5- 1114
6- 71
7- 74
8- 70
9- 494
10- 107

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Maybe so, but we've also had our fair share of Einstein material the past few years that wouldn't have made it there on defense alone.

173, 175, 176, 177, 190, 195, 1124 all come to mind.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Hey GODUX123!!!

I always liked your name you guys...very well chosen...

But isn't it BUILT ON BRAINS....?????

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Haha, maybe it wasn't clear that I was being sarcastic. Obviously I am quite familiar with my own region, so when I said that I was thinking of the rich histories we have in the Northeast (especially if you look in the 170s-190s). I'm guessing that no one who voted came from the New England (or even mid-Atlantic?) region- while all the teams on the list are truly exceptional, they seem to come from a few specific regions. It's hard not to be biased toward your own area, though.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

254 is no. 1 so far in my book.
from what I have seen, they can fill a trailer the fastest, can load well like the rest of the best teams, and drive circles around other robots.

Perhaps it was better that Travis and Kirk worked with Cory in the same shop as opposed to that long distance relationship. God knows what would happen if Dave moved there also.

Prediction: This will be their year, finally.
If 254 ends up with 968 on the same division, I'd bet they pick each other and dominate the floor. That's a sight I only saw once in Hawaii last year and my was it soooo pretty!

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I'm from Israel, and i did not put any Israeli team in that list, although i think there is one team deserving to be there.
The reason i did not put any local teams, that i know of is because i thought it won't be fair.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

these are some of the best working robots i have seen so far i might be missing some robots, so sorry if i did not add you to this list

lets see how all the robots perform in the coming weeks

234
254
1742
45
118
121
111
597
1712

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Well, after week one of regionals. There were many good teams, but one of the best, if thot the best, team at MWR was 1625 and I don't think I've seen them on any lists. 1114 did well, but it was proven they were stopable. From what I heard, the technokatz (sp?), team 45 I believe, seemed to fan circles around the rest. Theyve only been on a few lists also.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

I think the simplicity threw most of these guys off, we may not have crazy ball paths but the balls get from our bot to the trailer just as fast as those conveyor systems, just as a blob instead of a line.

I place no importance on lists made without seeing bots perform in matches.

This list shorted us, LookingForward shorted us a bit, guess what all that does is add to the motivation and oh look, we won midwest so where's this lists credibility now

these things generally just make those not mentioned work harder.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

in other words, bulletin board matireal. you never give it out to the opposing team in sports. and well now, you don't give it out in FIRST or else teams like 1625 will actually do what their name states.... win...

edit: when are the post week one rankings coming out?... you know, the ones we see AFTER we have seen some teams actually play the game?

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Dude I have no idea how 1625 didn't get up on the final list. Frankly idk how 180 did get up there.

Aren, you guys were on my list and will be even higher for week 1 list.

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

Echoing the fact that this list is too subjective at this point.
A ranking before championships, like last year, is more appropriate and a more accurate representation of your top level teams.
The pre-ranking is fine, but making revisions after every week doesnt make sense simply because everyone hasn't played yet.
But, I like reading about comments about certain teams that stand out every week. That will enlighten us as readers who weren't at the event and give us a better picture when all regionals are played. That is already being accomplished by "Looking Forward." :)

Re: FRC Top 25- Post-Build Ranking
 

same here